Waterboarding? 183 Times? Wrong...

[DiveCon]

Divecon: I'm guessing that you would be immune to waterboarding.

You'd just pretend that you were diving without out the risk of the bends.

i highl;y doubt they would let me wear my mask and regulator during it

It wouldn't hurt to ask.


Waterboarding for Divecon would be accomplished by jamming a big wad of Hubba Bubba into his snorkel pipe.

LOL
you havent seen the new snorkles, have ya

 

[Yurt]

prove fox is biased

The fact they think they are "fair and balanced" is a start

so what you're saying is, no other news agency believes they're fair and balanced

 

[oreo]

I don't think Barack Obama--sold the American public tonight on the "waterboarding" issue aka enhanced interrogation technics.

Obama brought up Winston Churchill during the London Blitz--& I personally don't buy for one single second that if Winston Churchill knew that he could stop the nightly bombings by the Germans that he wouldn't have waterboarded every single captive.

Obama is USING a different enemy in completely different circumstances. Waterboarding a captive of the London Blitz would have NEVER STOPPED the nightly bombings. Waterboarding a terrorist CAN stop a terrorist from killing thousands. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

Obama--referring to the London Blitz- bascially stated it's O.K. for a terrorist to kill Americans--as long as our "moral" clarity remains intact. And that's B.S.

What will happen when we get hit again, and terrorist suspects are captured . . . and if the kinder and gentler interrogation techniques fail to yield results . . . what will he do then?

I can only guess what American public opinon will do to him.

 

[Iriemon]

I don't think Barack Obama--sold the American public tonight on the "waterboarding" issue aka enhanced interrogation technics.

Obama brought up Winston Churchill during the London Blitz--& I personally don't buy for one single second that if Winston Churchill knew that he could stop the nightly bombings by the Germans that he wouldn't have waterboarded every single captive.

Obama is USING a different enemy in completely different circumstances. Waterboarding a captive of the London Blitz would have NEVER STOPPED the nightly bombings. Waterboarding a terrorist CAN stop a terrorist from killing thousands. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

Obama--referring to the London Blitz- bascially stated it's O.K. for a terrorist to kill Americans--as long as our "moral" clarity remains intact. And that's B.S.

What will happen when we get hit again, and terrorist suspects are captured . . . and if the kinder and gentler interrogation techniques fail to yield results . . . what will he do then?

I can only guess what American public opinon will do to him.

It doesn't take much of a guess to speculate on what the conservative position will be.

 

[Yurt]

What will happen when we get hit again, and terrorist suspects are captured . . . and if the kinder and gentler interrogation techniques fail to yield results . . . what will he do then?

I can only guess what American public opinon will do to him.

It doesn't take much of a guess to speculate on what the conservative position will be.

conservatives aren't like libs, we don't all vote or have opinions in lockstep

 

[wihosa]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

Waterboarding is torture and it is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, which were ratified by the US Congress making the Geneva Conventions the US Supreme Law as specified in the US Constitution.

It doesn't matter how many times water was poured onto them. One time is torture and a violation of US law.

Any righties still for the rule of law?

As for whether or not Fox News is "fair and balanced" all you have to do is ask if any Dems think it is. If no Dems think it is, then by definition it is not.

I would never claim that MSNBC is fair and balanced, not because I don't agree with many of their positions but because if no righty thinks it is fair and balanced then clearly it is not.

Of course, MSNBC doesn't claim to be fair and balanced, they have a point of view and don't apologize for it.

Isn't it time for Fox to just admit that they have functioned as the mouth piece for the Repubs and the Bush Admin.?

 

[DiveCon]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

Waterboarding is torture and it is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, which were ratified by the US Congress making the Geneva Conventions the US Supreme Law as specified in the US Constitution.

It doesn't matter how many times water was poured onto them. One time is torture and a violation of US law.

Any righties still for the rule of law?

As for whether or not Fox News is "fair and balanced" all you have to do is ask if any Dems think it is. If no Dems think it is, then by definition it is not.

I would never claim that MSNBC is fair and balanced, not because I don't agree with many of their positions but because if no righty thinks it is fair and balanced then clearly it is not.

Of course, MSNBC doesn't claim to be fair and balanced, they have a point of view and don't apologize for it.

Isn't it time for Fox to just admit that they have functioned as the mouth piece for the Repubs and the Bush Admin.?

no, only a fucking moron thinks waterboarding IS torture

 

[wihosa]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

Waterboarding is torture and it is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, which were ratified by the US Congress making the Geneva Conventions the US Supreme Law as specified in the US Constitution.

It doesn't matter how many times water was poured onto them. One time is torture and a violation of US law.

Any righties still for the rule of law?

As for whether or not Fox News is "fair and balanced" all you have to do is ask if any Dems think it is. If no Dems think it is, then by definition it is not.

I would never claim that MSNBC is fair and balanced, not because I don't agree with many of their positions but because if no righty thinks it is fair and balanced then clearly it is not.

Of course, MSNBC doesn't claim to be fair and balanced, they have a point of view and don't apologize for it.

Isn't it time for Fox to just admit that they have functioned as the mouth piece for the Repubs and the Bush Admin.?

no, only a fucking moron thinks waterboarding IS torture

Gee, what a clever retort - not!

 

[Zoom-boing]

What will happen when we get hit again, and terrorist suspects are captured . . . and if the kinder and gentler interrogation techniques fail to yield results . . . what will he do then?

I can only guess what American public opinon will do to him.

It doesn't take much of a guess to speculate on what the conservative position will be.

Do whatever it takes to save innocent American lives.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

And you are a fool. We hung some Japanese soldiers for doing that to our boys. As McCain stated, it isn't so much what torture does to the terrorists, as what it does to us. The people that set this up should see jail time.

No we didn't... not even close.

The Japanese used a MUCH MORE VISCIOUS FORM OF THIS PROCESS...

Your conclusion is to equate a child being beaten to death with a steel rod, to someone disciplining their child through a spanking...

"We don't spank!"

You simply want to define Torture down for political convenience. There is nothing remotely similar about US coercive interrogation and Torture, such as that which the Japanese inflicted upon US Prisoners of War.

This idiocy does a disservice to those men who were subjected to the most barbaric, cruel, inhumanity to man... to compare what happened to them, to processes which these mass murderers are subjected to; where these techniques are highly supervised by medical staff, where the slightest harm that they may endure is immediately treated... where sessions are timed; applications highly regulated and limited in terms of the time which they can be applied and the number of applications that can be initiated in a given period.

Your argument fails due to the stark ignorance on which it is based.
LOL... leftists...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

This is absolute NONSENSE...

For starters, special operators who are trained in coercive interrogation Are subjected to FAR WORSE TREATMENT THAN THESE DETAINEES... They are placed in a program where they are, for all intents and purposes, PRISONERS of a foreign power... You have absolutely no freakin' idea of what your talking about.

Secondly, Torture is TORTURE... TORTURE is cruel, invasive, mind bending inhumanity... and to compare these techniques to TORTURE IS ABSURD ON ITS FACE...

What's more, that you would make such a comparison, only establishes that you've AGAIN, NO IDEA what you're talking about.

Torture includes 'implements'... such as pliers, bolt cutters, electrical generators, Electric drills, Steel rods, knives, torches and so on... TORTURE removes fingers and hands, toes and feet; TORTURE is drilling into someones MAJOR JOINTS... burning the most sensitive areas of the body with A TORCH... Hands, feet, genitals... slicing into those burned areas; allowing those wounds to fester with infection and SLICING INTO THOSE INFECTED AREAS... TORTURE IS TORTURE... and TORTURE has nothing to do with sleep deprivation, audible cognitive disruption, stress positions and WATER-BOARDING...

Your argument fails due to the stark ignorance on which it rests...

 

[editec]

Why not go DIRECTLY to the RED CROSS source instead of reading other sources' SPIN on it?

Here tis.

http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

If nothing else you'll get to come up with your own impressions of what the RED CROSS thought of it rather than taking the word of FOX news of NPR.

What we did was torture people, in my opinion.

I think that America is better than that, and any ifnormation we gained is more than offset by the black eye this gives to us in world opinion.

I realize many of you think that world opinion isn't important, but you guys are nothing but god damned fools.

World opinion always matters to empire builders like we are.

 

[Iriemon]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

This is absolute NONSENSE...

For starters, special operators who are trained in coercive interrogation Are subjected to FAR WORSE TREATMENT THAN THESE DETAINEES... They are placed in a program where they are, for all intents and purposes, PRISONERS of a foreign power... You have absolutely no freakin' idea of what your talking about.

Secondly, Torture is TORTURE... TORTURE is cruel, invasive, mind bending inhumanity... and to compare these techniques to TORTURE IS ABSURD ON ITS FACE...

What's more, that you would make such a comparison, only establishes that you've AGAIN, NO IDEA what you're talking about.

Torture includes 'implements'... such as pliers, bolt cutters, electrical generators, Electric drills, Steel rods, knives, torches and so on... TORTURE removes fingers and hands, toes and feet; TORTURE is drilling into someones MAJOR JOINTS... burning the most sensitive areas of the body with A TORCH... Hands, feet, genitals... slicing into those burned areas; allowing those wounds to fester with infection and SLICING INTO THOSE INFECTED AREAS... TORTURE IS TORTURE... and TORTURE has nothing to do with sleep deprivation, audible cognitive disruption, stress positions and WATER-BOARDING...

Your argument fails due to the stark ignorance on which it rests...

If waterboarding is not deemed to be torture, then why couldn't it be used as an interrogation technique against American citizens by law enforcement?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Why not go DIRECTLY to the RED CROSS source instead of reading other sources' SPIN on it?

Here tis.

http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

If nothing else you'll get to come up with your own impressions of what the RED CROSS thought of it rather than taking the word of FOX news of NPR.

What we did was torture people, in my opinion.

I think that America is better than that, and any ifnormation we gained is more than offset by the black eye this gives to us in world opinion.

I realize many of you think that world opinion isn't important, but you guys are nothing but god damned fools.

World opinion always matters to empire builders like we are.

What the Red Cross thinks of it is IRRELEVANT... the Red Cross serves a necessary and noble purpose... but they're not responsible for the security of this nation...

The bottom line is that these detainees are not being detained to take them out of the war, to deprive the enemy of their use to project power... they're being DETAINED FOR THE PURPOSES OF GATHERING INFORMATION... INFORMATION WHICH IS USED TO PREVENT THERE NON-DETAINED COMRADES FROM MURDERING MASSIVE NUMBERS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.

The detainees are NOT int he US Justice System, they're NOT awaiting trial... They're sources of information and at such time that their usefullness as such has played out, then you can try them if you feel strongly about it.

As far as I'm concerned, the instant that they are deemed no longer a valuable resource of intelligence, they should be summarily executed, without delay, or ceremony.

 

[Iriemon]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

Waterboarding is torture and it is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, which were ratified by the US Congress making the Geneva Conventions the US Supreme Law as specified in the US Constitution.

It doesn't matter how many times water was poured onto them. One time is torture and a violation of US law.

Any righties still for the rule of law?

As for whether or not Fox News is "fair and balanced" all you have to do is ask if any Dems think it is. If no Dems think it is, then by definition it is not.

I would never claim that MSNBC is fair and balanced, not because I don't agree with many of their positions but because if no righty thinks it is fair and balanced then clearly it is not.

Of course, MSNBC doesn't claim to be fair and balanced, they have a point of view and don't apologize for it.

Isn't it time for Fox to just admit that they have functioned as the mouth piece for the Repubs and the Bush Admin.?

no, only a fucking moron thinks waterboarding IS torture

Gee, what a clever retort - not!

Divecon's MO is the one sentence post with insults, flaming, baiting, OT comments, and then neg reps you because you just disagree with his view.

Classic troll.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

This is absolute NONSENSE...

For starters, special operators who are trained in coercive interrogation Are subjected to FAR WORSE TREATMENT THAN THESE DETAINEES... They are placed in a program where they are, for all intents and purposes, PRISONERS of a foreign power... You have absolutely no freakin' idea of what your talking about.

Secondly, Torture is TORTURE... TORTURE is cruel, invasive, mind bending inhumanity... and to compare these techniques to TORTURE IS ABSURD ON ITS FACE...

What's more, that you would make such a comparison, only establishes that you've AGAIN, NO IDEA what you're talking about.

Torture includes 'implements'... such as pliers, bolt cutters, electrical generators, Electric drills, Steel rods, knives, torches and so on... TORTURE removes fingers and hands, toes and feet; TORTURE is drilling into someones MAJOR JOINTS... burning the most sensitive areas of the body with A TORCH... Hands, feet, genitals... slicing into those burned areas; allowing those wounds to fester with infection and SLICING INTO THOSE INFECTED AREAS... TORTURE IS TORTURE... and TORTURE has nothing to do with sleep deprivation, audible cognitive disruption, stress positions and WATER-BOARDING...

Your argument fails due to the stark ignorance on which it rests...

If waterboarding is not deemed to be torture, then why couldn't it be used as an interrogation technique against American citizens by law enforcement?

SWEET MOTHER... ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS?

For starters... DEFENDANTS AGAINST STATE PROSECUTION ARE NECESSARILY CONSIDERED INNOCENT; the judicial process is simply to CHARGE that a violation of the legal code has been commited; where upon an investigation by the state is advanced; evidence of that charge is gathered, where upon that evidence is tried in open court, before a jury of one's peers...

Secondly, it is absolutely against all measure of western civil jurisprudence to force someone to testify against themselves, and given that coersive interrogation, used in such a manner would be just that... where such is presented at trial, the court would have no choice but to release that defendant...

Third, it's just bad form to use coercion on people who are presumed innocent...

And just to head ya off at the pass... the detainees are not being detained by the US Judicial system... they are presumed guilty of having waged an illegal war on the US; and they are not being prosecuted for violations of the US Criminal code... and YES... were they to be prosecuted, NOTHING which was culled from coersive interrogation could be used in their trial... and given the necessary civil protections and procedural thresholds, it is simply unlikely that FEW of ANY of the detainees even COULD be tried by the US Judicial System... as the methods used, the practices inherent in the detainment and interrogation would all be demonstrable violations of the high standards of US Civil rights and likely would result in the immediate release.

Two distinct systems, designed to deal with two distinct set of problems... which represent two parallel lines which should NEVER intersect.

 

[Iriemon]

This is absolute NONSENSE...

For starters, special operators who are trained in coercive interrogation Are subjected to FAR WORSE TREATMENT THAN THESE DETAINEES... They are placed in a program where they are, for all intents and purposes, PRISONERS of a foreign power... You have absolutely no freakin' idea of what your talking about.

Secondly, Torture is TORTURE... TORTURE is cruel, invasive, mind bending inhumanity... and to compare these techniques to TORTURE IS ABSURD ON ITS FACE...

What's more, that you would make such a comparison, only establishes that you've AGAIN, NO IDEA what you're talking about.

Torture includes 'implements'... such as pliers, bolt cutters, electrical generators, Electric drills, Steel rods, knives, torches and so on... TORTURE removes fingers and hands, toes and feet; TORTURE is drilling into someones MAJOR JOINTS... burning the most sensitive areas of the body with A TORCH... Hands, feet, genitals... slicing into those burned areas; allowing those wounds to fester with infection and SLICING INTO THOSE INFECTED AREAS... TORTURE IS TORTURE... and TORTURE has nothing to do with sleep deprivation, audible cognitive disruption, stress positions and WATER-BOARDING...

Your argument fails due to the stark ignorance on which it rests...

If waterboarding is not deemed to be torture, then why couldn't it be used as an interrogation technique against American citizens by law enforcement?

SWEET MOTHER... ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS?

For starters... DEFENDANTS AGAINST STATE PROSECUTION ARE NECESSARILY CONSIDERED INNOCENT; the judicial process is simply to CHARGE that a violation of the legal code has been commited; where upon an investigation by the state is advanced; evidence of that charge is gathered, where upon that evidence is tried in open court, before a jury of one's peers...

Secondly, it is absolutely against all measure of western civil jurisprudence to force someone to testify against themselves, and given that coersive interrogation, used in such a manner would be just that... where such is presented at trial, the court would have no choice but to release that defendant...

Third, it's just bad form to use coercion on people who are presumed innocent...

And just to head ya off at the pass... the detainees are not being detained by the US Judicial system... they are presumed guilty of having waged an illegal war on the US; and they are not being prosecuted for violations of the US Criminal code... and YES... were they to be prosecuted, NOTHING which was culled from coersive interrogation could be used in their trial... and given the necessary civil protections and procedural thresholds, it is simply unlikely that FEW of ANY of the detainees even COULD be tried by the US Judicial System... as the methods used, the practices inherent in the detainment and interrogation would all be demonstrable violations of the high standards of US Civil rights and likely would result in the immediate release.

Two distinct systems, designed to deal with two distinct set of problems... which represent two parallel lines which should NEVER intersect.

Thanks for your views. I know there are two distinct systems. Law enforcement interrogate people too, do it all the time. It doesn't matter if they are deemed innocent or not, they are still subject to interrogation. The police cannot legal torture people, however, that would violate the 8th. If water boarding is legally deemed not torture you have not set out one reason why it could not be used as a legitimate law enforcement interogation technique.

For the record, I disagree with your view that just because a person is not a US citizen that he is therefore not somehow not entitled to basic human rights.

 

[editec]

If water boarding is legally deemed not torture you have not set out one reason why it could not be used as a legitimate law enforcement interogation technique.

True enough.

Such complex logic is a bit much for those mideval minds you're attempting to reach though, I think.

 

[DiveCon]

no, only a fucking moron thinks waterboarding IS torture

Gee, what a clever retort - not!

Divecon's MO is the one sentence post with insults, flaming, baiting, OT comments, and then neg reps you because you just disagree with his view.

Classic troll.

cry and whine, bitch

 

[DiveCon]

Only the easily fooled think that waterboarding is not torture. The Hannitys of the world make light of torture by saying that our soldiers undergo waterboarding as part of their training. Of course they know that the trainers are not going to harm them. What do you suppose someone locked in a cell, alone, thinks when his captors strap them on a board, stuff a rag in their mouth and pour water into their nose? Want to bet that they think they might die?

This is absolute NONSENSE...

For starters, special operators who are trained in coercive interrogation Are subjected to FAR WORSE TREATMENT THAN THESE DETAINEES... They are placed in a program where they are, for all intents and purposes, PRISONERS of a foreign power... You have absolutely no freakin' idea of what your talking about.

Secondly, Torture is TORTURE... TORTURE is cruel, invasive, mind bending inhumanity... and to compare these techniques to TORTURE IS ABSURD ON ITS FACE...

What's more, that you would make such a comparison, only establishes that you've AGAIN, NO IDEA what you're talking about.

Torture includes 'implements'... such as pliers, bolt cutters, electrical generators, Electric drills, Steel rods, knives, torches and so on... TORTURE removes fingers and hands, toes and feet; TORTURE is drilling into someones MAJOR JOINTS... burning the most sensitive areas of the body with A TORCH... Hands, feet, genitals... slicing into those burned areas; allowing those wounds to fester with infection and SLICING INTO THOSE INFECTED AREAS... TORTURE IS TORTURE... and TORTURE has nothing to do with sleep deprivation, audible cognitive disruption, stress positions and WATER-BOARDING...

Your argument fails due to the stark ignorance on which it rests...

If waterboarding is not deemed to be torture, then why couldn't it be used as an interrogation technique against American citizens by law enforcement?

simple, the 4th amendment