Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate

[Disir]

Remember, before the printing press, the Church had to copy the Bible word for word. They were so meticulous about this, a mistake of one word meant an entire page needed to be re-done.

Unless it was intentionally done, like so:
NPNF2-06. Jerome: The Principal Works of St. Jerome - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Meriweather]

Doctrine is worthless if the leadership has no credibility and covers up gross crimes, no matter who it is. The fact is no human is infallible, no human organization is infallible, that is a false doctrine, no matter how many hand waves and apologia are thrown out in defense of it. It's a huge roadblock to reforms if the top bureaucrats keep insisting 'they know best', when clearly they don't. Or it can stay on track to keep on disappearing into oblivion.

Notice that to make your arguments work, an alternate definition of "infallible" must be applied. Catholics know that "infallible" does not apply to any person (including popes), nor does it apply to the organization. It simply applies to teachings or doctrine.

While Catholics do not enjoy it when leadership (be it Pope, Vatican, Bishop, Pastor or Priest) fail, with Christ as our actual leader we are both assured and comforted in his promise that not eve the gates of hell will prevail against the Church. We, the people of the Church, make up the Body of Christ, are the bride of Christ, are the priests, prophets, and kings. God is our leader.

If you want to talk about what is being and has been done when anything untoward happens anywhere within the Church, we can talk about that. What I was doing previously was simply explaining the definition of "infallible" as used by the Catholic Church. We are not claiming a person--nor the Vatican--without fault or sin.

 

[Smedley VonBuren]

Matthew Levering, a Catholic perspective
In my book “Was the Reformation a Mistake?: Why Catholic Doctrine Is Not Unbiblical,” I aim to show that even if one disagrees with judgments made in the course of Catholic doctrinal development, the Catholic positions on nine disputed doctrines (Scripture, Mary, the Eucharist, the Seven Sacraments, monasticism, justification and merit, purgatory, saints and papacy) should not be rejected as unbiblical or as lacking in biblical grounding — at least given the Catholic view of biblically warranted modes of biblical reasoning.

Before proceeding, let me make some additional observations about whether the Reformation was a “mistake,” as my book’s title asks in light of the Reformation’s 500th anniversary.


I hold that the Reformers made mistakes, but that they chose to be reformers was not a mistake. There had to be a Reformation, and it is good that the Reformation shook up a status quo in Rome and elsewhere that was unacceptable and untenable. In this sense, the Protestant Reformation cannot be dismissed as a mere “mistake,” even if in my view it mistakenly deemed some Catholic doctrines to be unbiblical and church-dividing.
Commentary: Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate | Baptist Standard

I thought that there would have been a debate-debate but it is still a little interesting.

It had to happen. The Catholic church had people spending their last bits of money to pay for indulgences. GOD bless Martin Luther. He translated the Bible for the common people.

 

[Meriweather]

It had to happen. The Catholic church had people spending their last bits of money to pay for indulgences. GOD bless Martin Luther. He translated the Bible for the common people.

The Catholic Church already had translations. Martin Luther simply added his translation and then moved several books to the end of the Bible where they were later deleted. (Less pages to print, more money.)

Doesn't it also seem ironic that Protestants profess such outrage at the misuse of indulgences by a few only to support today's poor people giving savings to their rich televangelists?

 

[Smedley VonBuren]

It had to happen. The Catholic church had people spending their last bits of money to pay for indulgences. GOD bless Martin Luther. He translated the Bible for the common people.

The Catholic Church already had translations. Martin Luther simply added his translation and then moved several books to the end of the Bible where they were later deleted. (Less pages to print, more money.)

Doesn't it also seem ironic that Protestants profess such outrage at the misuse of indulgences by a few only to support today's poor people giving savings to their rich televangelists?

I said nothing about televangelists. The Catholic church scared people into paying ransom to keep themselves and their relatives from floating around is some fake purgatory.

 

[Meriweather]

I said nothing about televangelists. The Catholic church scared people into paying ransom to keep themselves and their relatives from floating around is some fake purgatory.

That's certainly one way to explain Indulgences and Purgatory. Too bad it's wrong. Were there problems and misuse? Yes. Did you know that Luther was indicating a specific parish where indulgences were being misused? Are you aware that the Church had already told that parish to knock it off? In this specific instance, Luther and the Church were in agreement. It wasn't until later that Protestants decided all indulgences were wrong and to pretend (despite scripture to the contrary) that purgatory does not exist.

 

[RWNJ]

The real issue of Roman Catholicism is IDENTITY.

Da bottom line:

Is the Roman Catholic religious organization really the "bride of Christ" .. whose head is really the "vicar of Christ" ?
OR
Is the Roman Catholic religious organization really the Revelation predicted and described "Great Whore" ?

A whore is a whore, no matter how much make-up it wears.

 

[Picaro]

Doctrine is worthless if the leadership has no credibility and covers up gross crimes, no matter who it is. The fact is no human is infallible, no human organization is infallible, that is a false doctrine, no matter how many hand waves and apologia are thrown out in defense of it. It's a huge roadblock to reforms if the top bureaucrats keep insisting 'they know best', when clearly they don't. Or it can stay on track to keep on disappearing into oblivion.

Notice that to make your arguments work, an alternate definition of "infallible" must be applied. Catholics know that "infallible" does not apply to any person (including popes), nor does it apply to the organization. It simply applies to teachings or doctrine.

While Catholics do not enjoy it when leadership (be it Pope, Vatican, Bishop, Pastor or Priest) fail, with Christ as our actual leader we are both assured and comforted in his promise that not eve the gates of hell will prevail against the Church. We, the people of the Church, make up the Body of Christ, are the bride of Christ, are the priests, prophets, and kings. God is our leader.

If you want to talk about what is being and has been done when anything untoward happens anywhere within the Church, we can talk about that. What I was doing previously was simply explaining the definition of "infallible" as used by the Catholic Church. We are not claiming a person--nor the Vatican--without fault or sin.

That's a little clearer, thanks. I don't agree with it, but I see the reasoning.

 

[Picaro]

It had to happen. The Catholic church had people spending their last bits of money to pay for indulgences. GOD bless Martin Luther. He translated the Bible for the common people.

The Catholic Church already had translations. Martin Luther simply added his translation and then moved several books to the end of the Bible where they were later deleted. (Less pages to print, more money.)

Doesn't it also seem ironic that Protestants profess such outrage at the misuse of indulgences by a few only to support today's poor people giving savings to their rich televangelists?

Most evangelicals are not Protestants; they came after the Reformation and were as much dissenters of the Protestant sects as the latter were re the Roman bureaucracy. As for televangelists, few are actually crooks, despite all the slanders and propaganda from assorted deviants and and Marxist sympathizers, and few are wealthy from donations. Even of those that are, the people who are trying to 'short cut' their way to salvation by buying their way in are just as dishonest, so in the end it's hard to feel sympathy; the old saying 'you can't cheat an honest man' comes to mind; it's not entirely true in all cases, but in the case of taking money from people trying to get something for nothing it certainly applies. It's as absurd as locking Bernie Maddoff up for merely doing what Wall Street does for a living, largely just cheats each other and other crooks looking for free rides and something for nothing.

 

[LittleNipper]

I believe that Christ alone is the Pope (Father) of HIS CHURCH. I do not find any Biblical support for Apostolic succession. Once the Church of Christ was established there was no need for a governing body to oversee the Church at large. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. And I feel that the Dark Ages, and the Fall of Constantinople among other disasters, were at least in part the result of the the paganizing of the Church in general.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe that Christ alone is the Pope (Father) of HIS CHURCH. I do not find any Biblical support for Apostolic succession. Once the Church of Christ was established there was no need for a governing body to oversee the Church at large. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. And I feel that the Dark Ages, and the Fall of Constantinople among other disasters, were at least in part the result of the the paganizing of the Church in general.

As apostolic succession was already in play before the books of the New Testament were gathered it is rather a moot point. Once we have the issue of time travel solved, I suppose someone could go back and inform early Christians of their errors. In the meantime, it continues to work well for Catholics.

 

[LittleNipper]

I believe that Christ alone is the Pope (Father) of HIS CHURCH. I do not find any Biblical support for Apostolic succession. Once the Church of Christ was established there was no need for a governing body to oversee the Church at large. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. And I feel that the Dark Ages, and the Fall of Constantinople among other disasters, were at least in part the result of the the paganizing of the Church in general.

As apostolic succession was already in play before the books of the New Testament were gathered it is rather a moot point. Once we have the issue of time travel solved, I suppose someone could go back and inform early Christians of their errors. In the meantime, it continues to work well for Catholics.

By Catholics, I suppose that you mean ROMAN Catholics. I do accept the Universal CHURCH of CHRIST. There were of course errors in the early churches. All one needs to read the start os Revelation and Christ's issues with the various community churches. Paul was a church founder and missionary. Peter was a Church leader. I believe Peter would have been highly embarrassed to be called THE Pope (if not aghast). He certainly would not have paraded around in the regalia seen fitting the head of Rome today ----- if indeed Peter was ever in Rome. This is a tradition and not an absolute fact. And I believe this is the case because the Holy Spirit never intended for the leaders of the CHURCH to be anything other than shepherds of community flocks.

 

[Meriweather]

By Catholics, I suppose that you mean ROMAN Catholics. I do accept the Universal CHURCH of CHRIST. There were of course errors in the early churches. All one needs to read the start os Revelation and Christ's issues with the various community churches. Paul was a church founder and missionary. Peter was a Church leader. I believe Peter would have been highly embarrassed to be called THE Pope (if not aghast). He certainly would not have paraded around in the regalia seen fitting the head of Rome today ----- if indeed Peter was ever in Rome. This is a tradition and not an absolute fact. And I believe this is the case because the Holy Spirit never intended for the leaders of the CHURCH to be anything other than shepherds of community flocks.

I mean Catholic. Errors can be corrected without dividing the Church. Pope comes from Papa, an affection term given by the people to the Bishop of Rome. "Regalia" as you call it was proper dress at one time. When fashion changed, the Church thought it best to remain staid and traditional.

If you don't believe Peter was ever in Rome, you don't believe it. Doesn't bother me.

 

[LittleNipper]

By Catholics, I suppose that you mean ROMAN Catholics. I do accept the Universal CHURCH of CHRIST. There were of course errors in the early churches. All one needs to read the start os Revelation and Christ's issues with the various community churches. Paul was a church founder and missionary. Peter was a Church leader. I believe Peter would have been highly embarrassed to be called THE Pope (if not aghast). He certainly would not have paraded around in the regalia seen fitting the head of Rome today ----- if indeed Peter was ever in Rome. This is a tradition and not an absolute fact. And I believe this is the case because the Holy Spirit never intended for the leaders of the CHURCH to be anything other than shepherds of community flocks.

I mean Catholic. Errors can be corrected without dividing the Church. Pope comes from Papa, an affection term given by the people to the Bishop of Rome. "Regalia" as you call it was proper dress at one time. When fashion changed, the Church thought it best to remain staid and traditional.

If you don't believe Peter was ever in Rome, you don't believe it. Doesn't bother me.

Regalia means lavish and expensive. Sorry, It was never proper for a modest humble Church when millions were starving and living in squalor. As for dividing the CHURCH one must not be unequally yoke with non-believers. And I believe the Holy Spirit divided the wheat from the tares on many occasions where He saw fit at the perfect time.

 

[Meriweather]

Regalia means lavish and expensive. Sorry, It was never proper for a modest humble Church when millions were starving and living in squalor. As for dividing the CHURCH one must not be unequally yoke with non-believers. And I believe the Holy Spirit divided the wheat from the tares on many occasions where He saw fit at the perfect time.

Yes, even in those days people had their party clothes for special occasions. It is not everyday wear. (Remember the parable of the wedding guest who was thrown out for not being properly attired?) This leads us to the parable of the wheat and tares. The division takes place at harvest time. Do you believe harvest time has already occurred? My understanding is that this is to occur on Judgment Day, not that it already occurred centuries ago. Until that time, we are told it is impossible to identify what is wheat and what is tares.

 

[LittleNipper]

Regalia means lavish and expensive. Sorry, It was never proper for a modest humble Church when millions were starving and living in squalor. As for dividing the CHURCH one must not be unequally yoke with non-believers. And I believe the Holy Spirit divided the wheat from the tares on many occasions where He saw fit at the perfect time.

Yes, even in those days people had their party clothes for special occasions. It is not everyday wear. (Remember the parable of the wedding guest who was thrown out for not being properly attired?) This leads us to the parable of the wheat and tares. The division takes place at harvest time. Do you believe harvest time has already occurred? My understanding is that this is to occur on Judgment Day, not that it already occurred centuries ago. Until that time, we are told it is impossible to identify what is wheat and what is tares.

Do you really Imagine that GOD just sits back and waits for Judgement Day to protect His own? A person doesn't have to dress in silk and satin and carry a gold cross to be properly attired. Man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you really Imagine that GOD just sits back and waits for Judgement Day to protect His own? A person doesn't have to dress in silk and satin and carry a gold cross to be properly attired. Man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart.

Exactly. God looks at the heart. So what does it matter to you what someone wears? Who are you to judge? Or even to complain. What is in your heart?

 

[LittleNipper]

Do you really Imagine that GOD just sits back and waits for Judgement Day to protect His own? A person doesn't have to dress in silk and satin and carry a gold cross to be properly attired. Man looks on the outward appearance but the Lord looks on the heart.

Exactly. God looks at the heart. So what does it matter to you what someone wears? Who are you to judge? Or even to complain. What is in your heart?

This someone is spending money that is not his on HIMSELF and the lavishing of a structure that is temporal at best. In the meantime priests are not allowed to get married (and we all know where that ended up), monks and nuns are are expected to be frugal. Sorry, while I believe there are true Christians among the Roman Catholics, I believe they are closing a blind eye to it's shortcomings and will in many cases leave that church and come visiting the one I attend.

 

[JohnPrewett]

I believe there are true Christians among the Roman Catholics,.....

And among the Lutherans ? And among the Anglicans ? And among the Mormons ? And among the Jehovah Witness ? And among the SDAdventist ?

And among the 'any christianish group you can name' ?

If you say yes, then good RC would say you are guilty of the heresy of "Indifferentism"

Modern christianish organized religion is a latter day tower of babel

Only rational resolution is to heed "come out of her MY people"

 

[LittleNipper]

I believe there are true Christians among the Roman Catholics,.....

And among the Lutherans ? And among the Anglicans ? And among the Mormons ? And among the Jehovah Witness ? And among the SDAdventist ?

And among the 'any christianish group you can name' ?

If you say yes, then good RC would say you are guilty of the heresy of "Indifferentism"

Modern christianish organized religion is a latter day tower of babel

Only rational resolution is to heed "come out of her MY people"

I believe in a personal relationship with the Creator God. I believe Church is to unite like minded believers as the Holy Spirit directs in the understanding of God's Holy Word and drawing closer to the Lord.. I believe the Last Supper is a remembrance of what Jesus did to save sinners upon the tree. And I believe immersion is likewise an illustration to those present at the "baptism" of dying to one's self and being raised with the Holy Spirit unto eternal life. I fully believe in the inerrant Word of God (6 day Creation, Flood, Moses, etc...) I do not regard the Pope as the head of Christ's Church.

I believe UNLESS one repents, and accepts The Lord Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior, and receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, then an individual is lost and cannot enter into heaven because he doesn't have faith in the vicarious death, burial and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The person can have a regard for Calvin, Luther, and Billy Graham; however, Christ comes first and the rest is a spiritual journey the Holy Spirit takes the individual on.

Indifferentism to me is when any individual is unwilling to put himself out in seeking biblical or spiritual truth but relies on his "traditional heritage" to save him. Meaning, "My father was a Catholic and that is why I'm Catholic ---- I go to church regularly and that's enough --- I'm a "good" person and try my best...." Place any religious tradition you like in the spot of Catholic and if the rest of the excuses follow, that individual has no idea what Christianity is all about and is in dire straits. Exam: Lord, Lord, didn't we cast out spirits in your name, didn't we go to the "right" church, didn't we act proper, didn't we pay our tithe?" And Jesus said --- away with you I never knew you (no personal relationship existed)......