Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate

[Disir]

Matthew Levering, a Catholic perspective
In my book “Was the Reformation a Mistake?: Why Catholic Doctrine Is Not Unbiblical,” I aim to show that even if one disagrees with judgments made in the course of Catholic doctrinal development, the Catholic positions on nine disputed doctrines (Scripture, Mary, the Eucharist, the Seven Sacraments, monasticism, justification and merit, purgatory, saints and papacy) should not be rejected as unbiblical or as lacking in biblical grounding — at least given the Catholic view of biblically warranted modes of biblical reasoning.

Before proceeding, let me make some additional observations about whether the Reformation was a “mistake,” as my book’s title asks in light of the Reformation’s 500th anniversary.


I hold that the Reformers made mistakes, but that they chose to be reformers was not a mistake. There had to be a Reformation, and it is good that the Reformation shook up a status quo in Rome and elsewhere that was unacceptable and untenable. In this sense, the Protestant Reformation cannot be dismissed as a mere “mistake,” even if in my view it mistakenly deemed some Catholic doctrines to be unbiblical and church-dividing.
Commentary: Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate | Baptist Standard

I thought that there would have been a debate-debate but it is still a little interesting.

 

[Dale Smith]

Matthew Levering, a Catholic perspective
In my book “Was the Reformation a Mistake?: Why Catholic Doctrine Is Not Unbiblical,” I aim to show that even if one disagrees with judgments made in the course of Catholic doctrinal development, the Catholic positions on nine disputed doctrines (Scripture, Mary, the Eucharist, the Seven Sacraments, monasticism, justification and merit, purgatory, saints and papacy) should not be rejected as unbiblical or as lacking in biblical grounding — at least given the Catholic view of biblically warranted modes of biblical reasoning.

Before proceeding, let me make some additional observations about whether the Reformation was a “mistake,” as my book’s title asks in light of the Reformation’s 500th anniversary.


I hold that the Reformers made mistakes, but that they chose to be reformers was not a mistake. There had to be a Reformation, and it is good that the Reformation shook up a status quo in Rome and elsewhere that was unacceptable and untenable. In this sense, the Protestant Reformation cannot be dismissed as a mere “mistake,” even if in my view it mistakenly deemed some Catholic doctrines to be unbiblical and church-dividing.
Commentary: Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate | Baptist Standard

I thought that there would have been a debate-debate but it is still a little interesting.

The catholic cult and their counter-reformation thugs (the jesuits) can kiss my ass.........

 

[JohnPrewett]

The real issue of Roman Catholicism is IDENTITY.

Da bottom line:

Is the Roman Catholic religious organization really the "bride of Christ" .. whose head is really the "vicar of Christ" ?
OR
Is the Roman Catholic religious organization really the Revelation predicted and described "Great Whore" ?

 

[Disir]

I disagree. I think this constant back and forth is a bit over the top due to alliances that have been formed to accomplish specific goals.

 

[Meriweather]

Matthew Levering, a Catholic perspective
In my book “Was the Reformation a Mistake?: Why Catholic Doctrine Is Not Unbiblical,” I aim to show that even if one disagrees with judgments made in the course of Catholic doctrinal development, the Catholic positions on nine disputed doctrines (Scripture, Mary, the Eucharist, the Seven Sacraments, monasticism, justification and merit, purgatory, saints and papacy) should not be rejected as unbiblical or as lacking in biblical grounding — at least given the Catholic view of biblically warranted modes of biblical reasoning.

Before proceeding, let me make some additional observations about whether the Reformation was a “mistake,” as my book’s title asks in light of the Reformation’s 500th anniversary.


I hold that the Reformers made mistakes, but that they chose to be reformers was not a mistake. There had to be a Reformation, and it is good that the Reformation shook up a status quo in Rome and elsewhere that was unacceptable and untenable. In this sense, the Protestant Reformation cannot be dismissed as a mere “mistake,” even if in my view it mistakenly deemed some Catholic doctrines to be unbiblical and church-dividing.
Commentary: Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate | Baptist Standard

I thought that there would have been a debate-debate but it is still a little interesting.

It has been a while since I did a thorough study of the Reformation. What isn't often addressed is that at its roots, the Reformation was part and parcel of the political upheaval taking place as well. The ruling class (Nobles and the Church) had all the power, all the wealth. Naturally, (and perhaps rightfully so) onlookers wanted this power and wealth for themselves. People agitating for this change took the interest in Martin Luther and his statements and saw an opportunity for their greater picture. In the end, what floored Luther was the fact that his followers followed exactly what he did and broke away from him.

As for the Church: The Church was rooted in the mindset of the eras where Kings, Emperors, and Caesars (ruling class) dictated the religion of all. The Church believed it was its position to keep the heads of state in line...except, what was happening is that Nobles were sending their younger sons into the Church to pedal influence there. Clerics within the Catholic Church saw the problem from within and were already agitating for change within the Church. Could this change have happened without the Reformation, the advent of greater democracy, and a shift to separation of Church and State?

People in those times were advocating an overthrow of the class system and more equality for all. I think we all stand in favor of that. One of the casualties of this was the breakup within the faith. I believe some of the Reformers decisions within the faith may be paving a lot of the growth in atheism we see today. Catholics insisted that the Bible be taught the way Christ and Apostles taught scripture. Reformers insisted people could read scriptures for themselves, be guided by the Holy Spirit, and reach their own interpretations and conclusions. Catholics insisted that the Church stay centered in the life of Christ who taught Baptism, Forgiveness, Last Supper, marriage until death, anointing of leaders, and healing of the sick (known also as the seven sacraments). Most Reformers decided to do away with the rites and rituals of some of these teachings.

A great question: Now that the political class system has been corrected, can Christians reunite?

 

[Meriweather]

The real issue of Roman Catholicism is IDENTITY.

Da bottom line:

Is the Roman Catholic religious organization really the "bride of Christ" .. whose head is really the "vicar of Christ" ?
OR
Is the Roman Catholic religious organization really the Revelation predicted and described "Great Whore" ?

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches is based on the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Every Catholic grows up with the teaching that all of us (not just the Pope) are to be Priest, Prophet, King because that is who we represent. We all make up the Body of Christ.

Apostolic Teaching: Rome, particularly the government at the time John wrote Revelation, was the "Great Whore."

 

[Disir]

A great question: Now that the political class system has been corrected, can Christians reunite?

What does reunite mean? Under the same church?

 

[hobelim]

Apostolic Teaching: Rome, particularly the government at the time John wrote Revelation, was the "Great Whore."

Rome was the beast that sits upon seven hills, obviously. An interesting side note is that the seven sacraments upon which the church is based correspond to the seven sacraments upon which Mithraism was based.

The great whore of Babylon rides the scarlet beast that sits upon seven hills and is drunk on the blood of God's people according to revelation..

According to history your 'mother' church, received its power and authority from the beast. Before the office of the papacy was created, the bishop of Rome was no one special but in collusion with Caesar usurped a place above all other bishops, and christianity itself, that was not his to take and then set about uniting the empire and conquering the world in the name of a counterfeit Jesus, a three in one god made man made matzo made by human hands that does not correspond to any real living being ever in existence, killing anyone who objected effectively burying the truth, teaching from God, under seven mountains of blasphemy upon which the Jabberwock sits.


"Just art thou, in these thy judgments, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink."

 

[Meriweather]

A great question: Now that the political class system has been corrected, can Christians reunite?

What does reunite mean? Under the same church?

One of Christ's final prayers was that he prayed that his followers would remain as one, just as he and the Father are one.

Reunification would take time and effort. Everyone would have to begin by taking very small steps and with the realization that each small step is likely to take decades. The first small step would be for each denomination to want to reunite with the denomination it is closest to. For example, Catholics and Orthodox. These two denominations are so close as to be almost indistinguishable, yet our differences continue to separate us. Both call for Christian unity, yet are still one of the best examples of schism within Christianity.

While Catholics and Orthodox are working towards unity, so might other denominations seek out the denomination that is closest to their teachings and philosophies and work towards unity as well.

 

[TheOldSchool]

The justifications for people forming a bunch of feel good pseudo-religions because Catholicism was too hard for them are pretty amusing. Lots of talk about a great whore; the temptation must have been too strong.

 

[Disir]

A great question: Now that the political class system has been corrected, can Christians reunite?

What does reunite mean? Under the same church?

One of Christ's final prayers was that he prayed that his followers would remain as one, just as he and the Father are one.

Reunification would take time and effort. Everyone would have to begin by taking very small steps and with the realization that each small step is likely to take decades. The first small step would be for each denomination to want to reunite with the denomination it is closest to. For example, Catholics and Orthodox. These two denominations are so close as to be almost indistinguishable, yet our differences continue to separate us. Both call for Christian unity, yet are still one of the best examples of schism within Christianity.

While Catholics and Orthodox are working towards unity, so might other denominations seek out the denomination that is closest to their teachings and philosophies and work towards unity as well.

Do you see Orthodox dismissing their own differences? They are significant.

I'm trying to picture in my mind what that unity looks like and trying not to make assumptions.

 

[Meriweather]

Do you see Orthodox dismissing their own differences? They are significant.

I'm trying to picture in my mind what that unity looks like and trying not to make assumptions.

Both have paid dearly for their differences, and so the differences became treasures. One only lets go of a treasurer to obtain a greater one. I propose the greater treasure is the one Christ prayed, that his followers remain one. At least one difference should have been resolved ages ago once it was recognized that grammar worked differently in Latin and Greek.

If you are wondering what each of the two Churches would concede to become truly reconciled, that I cannot say. I'm at the pew level (so-to-speak) and the differences are at the administrative level. I simply hold the opinion that we of the pews would love and embrace a reunification and the difficulty is a lack of humility within both administrations.

 

[JohnPrewett]

The justifications for people forming a bunch of feel good pseudo-religions because Catholicism was too hard for them are pretty amusing. Lots of talk about a great whore; the temptation must have been too strong.

The God sent Revelation brings the "Great Whore" into the discussion. Got a problem with that reveals a problem with God.

People left Catholicism because they came to believe it was saturated with falsehood. Not because it was "too hard"

 

[Meriweather]

People left Catholicism because they came to believe it was saturated with falsehood. Not because it was "too hard"

More stayed than left because they knew while the Church might not be perfect, it was not saturated with falsehood. It is astonishing that five hundred years later how people following the "Reformed" path still believe lies told about the Catholic Church. Archbishop Sheen said it best years ago:

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

What has amazed me throughout my life that people want to--and insist upon--clinging to those misconceptions. Worse, they continue to spread the lies.

 

[JohnPrewett]

What has amazed me throughout since I became a believer is that people see the NT healer Jesus and still think the murdering Roman Catholic cult is Jesus's Church.

 

[yiostheoy]

Matthew Levering, a Catholic perspective
In my book “Was the Reformation a Mistake?: Why Catholic Doctrine Is Not Unbiblical,” I aim to show that even if one disagrees with judgments made in the course of Catholic doctrinal development, the Catholic positions on nine disputed doctrines (Scripture, Mary, the Eucharist, the Seven Sacraments, monasticism, justification and merit, purgatory, saints and papacy) should not be rejected as unbiblical or as lacking in biblical grounding — at least given the Catholic view of biblically warranted modes of biblical reasoning.

Before proceeding, let me make some additional observations about whether the Reformation was a “mistake,” as my book’s title asks in light of the Reformation’s 500th anniversary.


I hold that the Reformers made mistakes, but that they chose to be reformers was not a mistake. There had to be a Reformation, and it is good that the Reformation shook up a status quo in Rome and elsewhere that was unacceptable and untenable. In this sense, the Protestant Reformation cannot be dismissed as a mere “mistake,” even if in my view it mistakenly deemed some Catholic doctrines to be unbiblical and church-dividing.
Commentary: Was the Reformation a mistake? A Catholic and a Protestant debate | Baptist Standard

I thought that there would have been a debate-debate but it is still a little interesting.

The Medici popes were undeniably corrupt.

Luther's reformation changed everything.

It was a disaster for Catholicism but was also badly needed at the times.

There was then a Catholic counter reformation afterwards to stop the bleeding.

Today we live with hundreds of Christian churches under the four covers of Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, and American Off The Wall.

C'est la vive !!

 

[yiostheoy]

People left Catholicism because they came to believe it was saturated with falsehood. Not because it was "too hard"

More stayed than left because they knew while the Church might not be perfect, it was not saturated with falsehood. It is astonishing that five hundred years later how people following the "Reformed" path still believe lies told about the Catholic Church. Archbishop Sheen said it best years ago:

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

What has amazed me throughout my life that people want to--and insist upon--clinging to those misconceptions. Worse, they continue to spread the lies.

Catholicism in the times of Luther was saturated with corruption.

The Medici popes were the Donald Trump's of Catholicism.

 

[yiostheoy]

Do you see Orthodox dismissing their own differences? They are significant.

I'm trying to picture in my mind what that unity looks like and trying not to make assumptions.

Both have paid dearly for their differences, and so the differences became treasures. One only lets go of a treasurer to obtain a greater one. I propose the greater treasure is the one Christ prayed, that his followers remain one. At least one difference should have been resolved ages ago once it was recognized that grammar worked differently in Latin and Greek.

If you are wondering what each of the two Churches would concede to become truly reconciled, that I cannot say. I'm at the pew level (so-to-speak) and the differences are at the administrative level. I simply hold the opinion that we of the pews would love and embrace a reunification and the difficulty is a lack of humility within both administrations.

You are forgetting that there are 4 (not only 2) Christian church broad categories in the world now:

- Catholic

- Eastern Orthodox

- European Protestant (Lutheran, Anglican, and Prysbyterian)

- American Off The Wall (Baptist, Holy Roller, Jehovah Witness, Scientology, Mormon, Quaker, Shaker, RLDS Polygamist, etc.)

 

[yiostheoy]

A great question: Now that the political class system has been corrected, can Christians reunite?

What does reunite mean? Under the same church?

One of Christ's final prayers was that he prayed that his followers would remain as one, just as he and the Father are one.

Reunification would take time and effort. Everyone would have to begin by taking very small steps and with the realization that each small step is likely to take decades. The first small step would be for each denomination to want to reunite with the denomination it is closest to. For example, Catholics and Orthodox. These two denominations are so close as to be almost indistinguishable, yet our differences continue to separate us. Both call for Christian unity, yet are still one of the best examples of schism within Christianity.

While Catholics and Orthodox are working towards unity, so might other denominations seek out the denomination that is closest to their teachings and philosophies and work towards unity as well.

Do you see Orthodox dismissing their own differences? They are significant.

I'm trying to picture in my mind what that unity looks like and trying not to make assumptions.

Eastern Orthodox priests marry but bishops are chosen from single priests.

Eastern Orthodox does not need to eat fish on Fridays.

They have different saints too.

Easter is on different dates too.

 

[yiostheoy]

The justifications for people forming a bunch of feel good pseudo-religions because Catholicism was too hard for them are pretty amusing. Lots of talk about a great whore; the temptation must have been too strong.

Yup.

Grace in Lutheranism means you don't need to do anything.

You can throw away Matthew Chapter 25 completely.