JakeStarkey
Diamond Member
- Aug 10, 2009
- 168,037
- 16,522
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- Banned
- #61
The funny thing is that did not happen, the South got stupid, Lincoln became dictatorial and absolutely ruthless, and we have the country we have today, for better and worse.
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I don't want to be mistaken for a 'conservative', even if I'd align with conservative opinions from time to time. The same with 'liberal'. I'd describe myself as my own brand of social capitalist, and politically, a centered pragmatist.Who cares? I care. I have used some colorful fonts to help you to glean some correlation.I don't think that qualifies as a response to my previous post.
If what you have put forward are arguments, pardon my observation that they are terse. I replied commensurately. I took the time to elaborate your gist, would you pay me the same credit?
Power, opportunity, land, constituents, resources, relationships, defenses... What do you see as the value of the southeast, moreover the legacy of sovereignty and other accolades of getting publicly robbed?Nevertheless, what did the United States lose? What were they defending? What wrong was committed that justified a war of such a scale?
Alas, who predicted this scale when the conflict started?
I stand by my previous statements, grounded in Lockeian and Jeffersonian principle. You see, I'm not a conservative part of the time, but all of the time. I could take your argument about power, opportunity, land, constituents, resources, etc. and make the same liberal arguments that you reject so much. I could say that law and reason is not grounded in the individual, but the welfare of the collective, and you would reject that out right. I could say that an individual or a people who elects his/their representatives in a free election to exercise his/their will, doesnt count if there is another person, in another state, in another election, who feels that his elected officials (who have done them no harm) doesnt represent their interests, or their lust for power, which gives them the right to invade that state, and you would call me crazy! But in this case, self-evident truths dont matter. In this case, the U.S. Constitution doesnt matter. In this case, the principles grounded in the Declaration of Independence dont matter. In this case, the unalienable right of self-government doesnt matter. This case is all about other peoples goods that make up a federal privilege, and not of everyones rights. This case is all about top down federal strong arming of the states and the harm done to the federal government. You said so yourself. And your argument is no different than that of the liberals you argue against in this forum. Where the natural unalienable rights of the individual is NOT the object of which government was instituted to protect, and the general welfare of a nation can be described as not equal treatment under the law, equal allocation of federal protection, but redistributive in nature against everything James Madison argued in federalist no. 41. This is the argument you are making. Thomas Jefferson would not agree. Why? Because the right of secession is concurrent with the natural rights of man. All the legal, philosophical, and moral arguments you've displayed are the bedrock of modern liberal thought. And, secession off the table, you would not practice the same standard in modern legal and philosophical times.
wow, the dumb in this thread is long, wide and deep.
Only a great buffoon would consider that a split America would somehow be better.
And would have to completely ignore all the history that has occurred since.
wow, the dumb in this thread is long, wide and deep.
Only a great buffoon would consider that a split America would somehow be better.
And would have to completely ignore all the history that has occurred since.
So is it your opinion that Lincoln was correct in forcing a terrible war that killed and wounded hundreds of thousands, completely destroyed the South, and resulted in terrible racism that persisted for decades? Do you not think the war could have been avoided and the Union preserved?
The Constitution was silent on succession. This was the only way the States would join the Union and ratify the Constitution. This means any state had the right to leave the Union and this was well known up and until the War of Northern Aggression. Lincoln changed all that by the force of arms...funny how tyrants regularly resort to violence to get their way.
No president was more tyrannical than Lincoln.
The United States will always be worth preserving.
Take a hike. Get on a plane and burn your passport after you land in whatever shithole you esteem over the US.The United States will always be worth preserving.
I'm not so sure. What is worth preserving about a state that strip searches children? That forces a 4 year old to remove his leg braces so he can fly? That arrests a soldier for what he posts on Facebook? Why is the United States worth preserving? What exactly do we have today that is worth preserving. We sure as hell don't have the freedom for which our ancestors fought. Few of us can even afford the "American Dream" today, so exactly why is America worth preserving?
Take a hike. Get on a plane and burn your passport after you land in whatever shithole you esteem over the US.The United States will always be worth preserving.
I'm not so sure. What is worth preserving about a state that strip searches children? That forces a 4 year old to remove his leg braces so he can fly? That arrests a soldier for what he posts on Facebook? Why is the United States worth preserving? What exactly do we have today that is worth preserving. We sure as hell don't have the freedom for which our ancestors fought. Few of us can even afford the "American Dream" today, so exactly why is America worth preserving?
I love my country. I love it even though some of us and some of our rules are stupid. We always work them out in time. For all ye of no faith in our nation all of a sudden: just get lost. We have plenty of immigrants coming here who are willing to stand up and defend this country. Dead-weight like you can scram without us missing a step.
Have some honor and leave the country permanently.
Was the Civil War Worth 600,000 Dead Americans Just to Preserve the Union?
Take a hike. Get on a plane and burn your passport after you land in whatever shithole you esteem over the US.I'm not so sure. What is worth preserving about a state that strip searches children? That forces a 4 year old to remove his leg braces so he can fly? That arrests a soldier for what he posts on Facebook? Why is the United States worth preserving? What exactly do we have today that is worth preserving. We sure as hell don't have the freedom for which our ancestors fought. Few of us can even afford the "American Dream" today, so exactly why is America worth preserving?
I love my country. I love it even though some of us and some of our rules are stupid. We always work them out in time. For all ye of no faith in our nation all of a sudden: just get lost. We have plenty of immigrants coming here who are willing to stand up and defend this country. Dead-weight like you can scram without us missing a step.
Have some honor and leave the country permanently.
Where am I suppose to go? America is the only country in the world that takes in people to take away the jobs of their own citizens.
Take a hike. Get on a plane and burn your passport after you land in whatever shithole you esteem over the US.I'm not so sure. What is worth preserving about a state that strip searches children? That forces a 4 year old to remove his leg braces so he can fly? That arrests a soldier for what he posts on Facebook? Why is the United States worth preserving? What exactly do we have today that is worth preserving. We sure as hell don't have the freedom for which our ancestors fought. Few of us can even afford the "American Dream" today, so exactly why is America worth preserving?
I love my country. I love it even though some of us and some of our rules are stupid. We always work them out in time. For all ye of no faith in our nation all of a sudden: just get lost. We have plenty of immigrants coming here who are willing to stand up and defend this country. Dead-weight like you can scram without us missing a step.
Have some honor and leave the country permanently.
Where am I suppose to go? America is the only country in the world that takes in people to take away the jobs of their own citizens.
No price is too high to pay when sweeping aside an outdated republic and instituting a centralised leviathan state.
I think it can be well determined that the South was defending and the North was attacking. Therefore, the context of the question could be regarded as was Lincoln's goal of unity worth wasting 600,000 lives.
I think it can be well determined that the South was defending and the North was attacking. Therefore, the context of the question could be regarded as was Lincoln's goal of unity worth wasting 600,000 lives.
The south (the confederate gov't) was on the offense as they occupied all the seceded states... US territory.
The states seceded via vote by democratically elected officials in their state. Thats the same way they entered in the union. Thats hardly the occupation you describe. Elected officials who execute the will of the people do not occupy. No new outside force entered to lay claim to the Southern States until northern invasion. The people who were in those states were the same people who have always been there. Occupation? If the American Revolution could be justified via the will of the people then why couldnt secession be justified by the will of the people? Why was war necessary? For defense? To redress a grievance for a loss? Why?
Was the Civil War Worth 600,000 Dead Americans Just to Preserve the Union?
Yes. It was worth it. It was also worth ridding the nation of the institution of slavery.
I suppose you'd have to ask the freed slaves.
Is human freedom worth fighting for?
Can humans be owned as property?