Was obama The Reason The LEFT Turned Into Full Blown Socialists?

[expatriate]

I don't usually have the patience to read longer posts, but I think this kind of conversation is one that should be had on a national basis.

Y'know, the debate over the role, size and cost of government doesn't have to be like a game of tug o' war at summer camp, where one team "wins" and other team ends up in the mud.

Isn't the real issue one of finding a proper equilibrium, a place on the spectrum where (1) able-bodied Americans are not made to be overly dependent of government, and (2) government finds an appropriate place in creating and promoting an environment that maintains a reasonable balance between the richest and the poorest?

On one hand, is it really asking too much for people to take some responsibility for their lives, to not pass down dependence on the government and expectations of entitlements from generation to generation, creating an ever-growing cost, size and influence of government?

On the other hand, is it really asking too much for those who were born with the drive and intelligence to create and sustain wealth to recognize that others simply were not born with those qualities, and to acknowledge the notion that government and the public can indeed find ways to work together to raise all boats?

Such a conversation can only start at the top.

It's my humble opinion that this country is in desperate need of our "leaders" (cough) in Washington DC to put aside their selfish and narcissistic concerns about re-election and fundraising, and have a serious, honest and respectable conversation about these issues, outside the venue of individual bills and law-making. A conversation specifically and only about the role, cost and size of the American government, for all of us to see and consider. And in my little fantasy world, none of those discussions would culminate in the politicians running out to the television cameras to spew their predictable partisan horseshit.

I see no indication that such a conversation is imminent.

.

well thought out post. shows great intelligence. thank you. I would agree that your thoughts are the very essence of what our national political dialog needs to look like. What I had been trying to do here, without much success, was at least to get people agreeing on a common lexicon. As long as we don't understand or agree on what words mean, we can never communicate with one another and we end up shouting past one another, not for the purpose of communicating or debating with those who think differently than us, but only to score points and motivate and bring to a state of righteous indignation those people who think exactly like we do.

And I know that this recent dialog that I have engaged in needn't have been so caustic. I just really get SICK of folks on the right with educational and intellectual experiences that could fit in a coffee cup and there'd still be room for a cup of coffee, throwing around the words "socialist", "communist", and "marxist" as hateful epithets that are devoid of any real meaning that a commonly agreed upon lexicon would provide.

ah, and this post was so loving...you need a tissue?
How many in the Democrat party are Socialist? can you tell us.
and why is it the Communist Party of the United States feels they have more of a allegiance with Democrat party?

how many people in the democratic party believe that the government should own and control the means of production for all aspects of our economy? I would suggest precious few of them. I have been a country and state democratic committee member and I never met ONE who favored that, so the answer to your first question is: none to my knowledge, and if any of them DO believe that, they are well aware that their views on that particular subject are not held by the VAST majority of the democratic party.

Why does the communist party of the US feel more allegiance to the Democratic party? Because many of their party planks look a lot more similar to those of the democrats than they do to the republicans. The distinction comes when you consider that, besides issues like universal health care and universal education, the other aspects of the communist party's philosophy diverge significantly from either of the two major political parties. They will align themselves with the party that agrees with more of their ideas. That's pretty simple. The aspects of communism that make it different than the democrats is the difference between communism and capitalism. Democrats are capitalists, communists are not.

Why do you think that today's KKK or other white supremacy movements, or the American Nazi party align themselves with republicans. Same basic answer. That does not mean that the republican party is populated solely with racists, it merely means that a larger subset of their party platform is congruent with the aims of those groups.

Again... Staphie uses words as epithets. SHe always has,no matter what board she posts on.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Misread by Frank: " The fascists have more in common with us than the Democrats."

Why would you say that, Jake? Why would you smear Republicans with Fascism?

It's you Obama supporters that took over the car companies like your Uncle Adolf did

It's you Obama supporters that are the enemies of capitalism like your Uncle Adolf

 

[JakeStarkey]

Because you stupidly say that most Dems are socialists?

Because we have some in the GOP that are fascists?

Because you deny real terms and definitions, because you misread political narrative?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Because you stupidly say that most Dems are socialists?

Because we have some in the GOP that are fascists?

Because you deny real terms and definitions, because you misread political narrative?

Jake, the Dems themselves have said they're Socialists

People, like yourself, who believe that the government knows best, that Washington DC is the US economy

 

[JakeStarkey]

Frank, the Dems have not said they are socialists. YOU have said they are.

I believe We the People know best, and that some people like you do not have a clue.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frank, the Dems have not said they are socialists. YOU have said they are.

I believe We the People know best, and that some people like you do not have a clue.

Maxine Water, Barack Obama, Van Jones, etc. all admitted the Dems are Socialists

Your economic ideas are now to the Left of real Communists in China, Russia, Vietnam and even Cuba

We the people?

What a fucking mental patient

How you making out with that list of one person ruined by McCarthy?

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, they have not admitted the Democratic Party or the democrats en toto are socialist.

Go ahead and post the evidence, so I can point out exactly what I was saying: you distort knowingly and willingly, which is morally criminal.

 

[Annie]

I haven't read all of this thread, someone probably already posted:

Democrats, Republicans Diverge on Capitalism, Federal Gov't

November 29, 2012
Democrats, Republicans Diverge on Capitalism, Federal Gov't
Little difference on small business, free enterprise, entrepreneurs
by Frank Newport

PRINCETON, NJ -- Exemplifying a major partisan divide in modern politics, Democrats react significantly more positively to the term "federal government" than they do to the term "capitalism," while the opposite is true for Republicans. But both Democrats and Republicans are highly positive about the terms "small business," "free enterprise," and "entrepreneurs."

Overall, Americans today are most positive toward small business, free enterprise, and entrepreneurs. The reason for these highly positive overall ratings lies in the fact that there are only minor partisan differences between Republicans and Democrats, or between conservatives and liberals.

Americans give lower ratings to the other four terms measured in the survey, ranging from 61% who have a positive reaction to capitalism to 39% who have a positive reaction to socialism, reflecting the greater variation between Republicans and Democrats.

...

Liberal and Conservative Differences Mirror Party Divide

Americans' views of the seven terms differ according to ideology, mirroring the divergent ratings by party. Liberals are substantially more positive about the federal government and socialism than are conservatives, while conservatives are more positive about big business and capitalism. In fact, liberals -- about 20% of the sample -- are slightly more positive about socialism than capitalism.

Implications

These data reinforce the conclusion that certain terms in common use today in political and economic discourse are more politically charged than others. Any mention of capitalism, socialism, big business, or the federal government will evoke significantly different reactions from Republicans than from Democrats and from conservatives than from liberals. But, Americans across parties and ideologies are uniformly positive toward small business, free enterprise, and entrepreneurs.

Capitalism and free enterprise have many similarities theoretically. But, capitalism as a term gets a significantly more negative rating from Democrats -- and to a degree from Republicans -- than does free enterprise.

Small and big business are similar in concept as well, but while every group appears to love the former, the latter evokes less positive reactions, particularly among Democrats and liberals.

Practically, these data suggest that politicians seeking the most positive overall reaction from voters should choose to use the term "free enterprise" rather than "capitalism" in describing America's prevailing economic system and preface mentions of the word "business" with the adjective "small."

 

[JakeStarkey]

The conclusion was "Americans across parties and ideologies are uniformly positive toward small business, free enterprise, and entrepreneurs."

I suggest that Americans understand and be able to competently address "socialism" because Gallup gave no definition of the word.

 

[peach174]

No, they have not admitted the Democratic Party or the democrats en toto are socialist.

Go ahead and post the evidence, so I can point out exactly what I was saying: you distort knowingly and willingly, which is morally criminal.

Slip of the tongue?
They know that they are socialists.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3I-PVVowFY]Maxine Waters (D) Slip of the Tongue Reveals True Intentions (Socialism for America) - YouTube[/ame]

Socialists believe in big government and huge amounts of entitlements.
Democratic socialism seeks to establish socialism through democratic processes and propagate its ideals within the context of a democratic political system.
Social Democrats believe in social cooperation (collectivism)
Universal Welfare and equality.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

All Jake has is the Big Lie in response

 

[expatriate]

No, they have not admitted the Democratic Party or the democrats en toto are socialist.

Go ahead and post the evidence, so I can point out exactly what I was saying: you distort knowingly and willingly, which is morally criminal.

Slip of the tongue?
They know that they are socialists.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3I-PVVowFY]Maxine Waters (D) Slip of the Tongue Reveals True Intentions (Socialism for America) - YouTube[/ame]

Socialists believe in big government and huge amounts of entitlements.
Democratic socialism seeks to establish socialism through democratic processes and propagate its ideals within the context of a democratic political system.
Social Democrats believe in social cooperation (collectivism)
Universal Welfare and equality.

clearly, you don't have a clue about this subject... as proven as far back as post #47. I am a lifelong democrat. My father was a democrat. My grandfather was a democrat. THEY didn't believe in or advocate socialism. I don't believe in or advocate socialism. My PARTY does not believe in or advocate socialism.

 

[peach174]

The conclusion was "Americans across parties and ideologies are uniformly positive toward small business, free enterprise, and entrepreneurs."

I suggest that Americans understand and be able to competently address "socialism" because Gallup gave no definition of the word.

This administration has done much harm to our small business &entrepreneurs by passing laws and regulations that hinder all of our business through taxes and regulations and rules.
Obama Hindering American Tech Industry - Business Insider

Silicon Valley residents vote heavily for Democrats. So this is not just a Republican complaint only.
This is just one of many of thounds of businesses out there on the Internet, about how they are being hindered and harmed.

 

[peach174]

No, they have not admitted the Democratic Party or the democrats en toto are socialist.

Go ahead and post the evidence, so I can point out exactly what I was saying: you distort knowingly and willingly, which is morally criminal.

Slip of the tongue?
They know that they are socialists.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3I-PVVowFY]Maxine Waters (D) Slip of the Tongue Reveals True Intentions (Socialism for America) - YouTube[/ame]

Socialists believe in big government and huge amounts of entitlements.
Democratic socialism seeks to establish socialism through democratic processes and propagate its ideals within the context of a democratic political system.
Social Democrats believe in social cooperation (collectivism)
Universal Welfare and equality.

clearly, you don't have a clue about this subject... as proven as far back as post #47. I am a lifelong democrat. My father was a democrat. My grandfather was a democrat. THEY didn't believe in or advocate socialism. I don't believe in or advocate socialism. My PARTY does not believe in or advocate socialism.

Most don't. It's the far left of the party who do, like Pelosi and Waters.

 

[expatriate]

Slip of the tongue?
They know that they are socialists.
Maxine Waters (D) Slip of the Tongue Reveals True Intentions (Socialism for America) - YouTube

Socialists believe in big government and huge amounts of entitlements.
Democratic socialism seeks to establish socialism through democratic processes and propagate its ideals within the context of a democratic political system.
Social Democrats believe in social cooperation (collectivism)
Universal Welfare and equality.

clearly, you don't have a clue about this subject... as proven as far back as post #47. I am a lifelong democrat. My father was a democrat. My grandfather was a democrat. THEY didn't believe in or advocate socialism. I don't believe in or advocate socialism. My PARTY does not believe in or advocate socialism.

Most don't. It's the far left of the party who do, like Pelosi and Waters.

Pelosi has never advocated government ownership and control of all the means of production. Waters threatened nationalizing the oil business. As you have learned from the schooling you've received on this thread, nationalizing one industry or one segment of the economy is NOT socialism.... let alone "pure communism" as you originally suggested.

And even if there WERE some far left whackjobs who advocated socialism, why would that be a stain on the entire democratic party, any more than David Duke would be a stain on the entire GOP? In our two party system, crazy people on all segments of the political wheel eventually end up on one side or the other. That does not mean that all of their crazy beliefs are supported and endorsed by the party whose tent they end up under.

 

[regent]

Frank, the Dems have not said they are socialists. YOU have said they are.

I believe We the People know best, and that some people like you do not have a clue.

Maxine Water, Barack Obama, Van Jones, etc. all admitted the Dems are Socialists

Your economic ideas are now to the Left of real Communists in China, Russia, Vietnam and even Cuba

We the people?

What a fucking mental patient

How you making out with that list of one person ruined by McCarthy?

At one time "democracy" was used as a scare word in America, but with proper useage, we seem to no longer fear democracy as we once did. Socialism is also a scare word and the word still frightens some people We seem to like some of the programs we just don't like the name. With some other people, a socialistic program such as Social Security is not just a program it means the entire country has now gone socialistic and our next step is communism. Most economies of the world are a mixture of socialism and capitalism as America's has always been.
We are adults we should be able to decide if we want a program or not, and not be scared by the word socialism, or by the word democracy. And that may be scary to some.

 

[peach174]

clearly, you don't have a clue about this subject... as proven as far back as post #47. I am a lifelong democrat. My father was a democrat. My grandfather was a democrat. THEY didn't believe in or advocate socialism. I don't believe in or advocate socialism. My PARTY does not believe in or advocate socialism.

Most don't. It's the far left of the party who do, like Pelosi and Waters.

Pelosi has never advocated government ownership and control of all the means of production. Waters threatened nationalizing the oil business. As you have learned from the schooling you've received on this thread, nationalizing one industry or one segment of the economy is NOT socialism.... let alone "pure communism" as you originally suggested.

And even if there WERE some far left whackjobs who advocated socialism, why would that be a stain on the entire democratic party, any more than David Duke would be a stain on the entire GOP? In our two party system, crazy people on all segments of the political wheel eventually end up on one side or the other. That does not mean that all of their crazy beliefs are supported and endorsed by the party whose tent they end up under.

What I said was, when government can own 100% of that companies stock the government is then in full control of running that company.
That is the beginning of full blow-en communism.
If the government can do that legally to one company, then they can do it to as many or all companies as they want, that is communism.
You also don't seem to recognize nor understand that there is many forms of socialism and the Liberals of this nation are for and implementing social democratic ideologies. This is a form of socialism.
Western Europe are socialists as well and Canada.
Before President Obama we were 63% capitalist and 37% socialist.
After President Obama we are now 55% capitalist and 45% socialist.
Since the mid 70's America has been pretty consistent with 33% to 36% socialist, no matter which party was in control.
What we should be is more like 80% capitalist and 20% socialist.
The 20% would include; postal service, police and fire departments, military, and Federal Government workers.

 

[HUGGY]

Sadly it's how Hitler got started.

Perfect!

Let's invade Europe!

 

[regent]

Most don't. It's the far left of the party who do, like Pelosi and Waters.

Pelosi has never advocated government ownership and control of all the means of production. Waters threatened nationalizing the oil business. As you have learned from the schooling you've received on this thread, nationalizing one industry or one segment of the economy is NOT socialism.... let alone "pure communism" as you originally suggested.

And even if there WERE some far left whackjobs who advocated socialism, why would that be a stain on the entire democratic party, any more than David Duke would be a stain on the entire GOP? In our two party system, crazy people on all segments of the political wheel eventually end up on one side or the other. That does not mean that all of their crazy beliefs are supported and endorsed by the party whose tent they end up under.

I What I said was, when government can own 100% of that companies stock the government is then in full control of running that company.
That is the beginning of full blow-en communism.
If the government can do that legally to one company, then they can do it to as many or all companies as they want, that is communism.
You also don't seem to recognize nor understand that there is many forms of socialism and the Liberals of this nation are for and implementing social democratic ideologies. This is a form of socialism.
Western Europe are socialists as well and Canada.
Before President Obama we were 63% capitalist and 37% socialist.
After President Obama we are now 55% capitalist and 45% socialist.
Since the mid 70's America has been pretty consistent with 33% to 36% socialist, no matter which party was in control.
What we should be is more like 80% capitalist and 20% socialist.
The 20% would include; postal service, police and fire departments, military, and Federal Government workers.

I think that is more like State Capitalism than communism.
As for the 80% capitalist and 20% socialist, where is that written?

 

[expatriate]

What I said was, when government can own 100% of that companies stock the government is then in full control of running that company.
That is the beginning of full blow-en communism.
If the government can do that legally to one company, then they can do it to as many or all companies as they want, that is communism.
You also don't seem to recognize nor understand that there is many forms of socialism and the Liberals of this nation are for and implementing social democratic ideologies. This is a form of socialism.
Western Europe are socialists as well and Canada.
Before President Obama we were 63% capitalist and 37% socialist.
After President Obama we are now 55% capitalist and 45% socialist.
Since the mid 70's America has been pretty consistent with 33% to 36% socialist, no matter which party was in control.
What we should be is more like 80% capitalist and 20% socialist.
The 20% would include; postal service, police and fire departments, military, and Federal Government workers.

that may be what you THOUGHT you said, but if we go back and quote from posts #46 and #47, we see that you said something different from that:

so... if some government owned 100% of some industry, that government would DEFINITELY be a bastion of socialism? Is that correct? yes or no

No - that would be full blown communism.

Those are your words. A government who owned and controlled ONE industry would be beyond socialism and would be, instead, "FULL BLOWN COMMUNISM". Canada. Government controlled health care: full blown communism???? Great Britain? same thing? REALLY????

and again... you don't have a clue what socialism or communism are. PLEASE... go beyond wikipedia, or Glen Beck or wherever the hell you are getting your information and understand what the definition of the words are that you toss around.

and these 63%-37%, 55%-45% percentages that you state as fact in your post.... please post a link to some objective news source that would support those numbers. You are saying that, under republican president George W. Bush, this economy was 37% socialist and now, four years later, that percentage has gone up to 45%???? You cannot cite any reputable source that would support such gibberish... and the little man that lives inside your anus and hands stuff to you when you need to pull something out of there does NOT count as a reputable source. Seriously... where you get the idea that the government OWNS AND CONTROLS 45% of our economy and economic assets and economic activity is a place where the sky is a different color than it is on earth.