CDZ Vouchers, how the heck would private schools work?

[Toronado3800]

I am getting more skeptical on this the more I think about it. Then again it is just me and the internet here so set me straight.

How would a dream voucher system work?

Lets say I am in year 5 of the voucher system and we have eliminated public schools. Between my home and work there are 10 grade schools in the area.

- They range in cost from $4500 a year to $13,500.

So the cheapest school is going to fill up with kids from family's which can't afford better. They'll get the cruddiest education and be surrounded by kids from similar families.

The most cost effective couple schools are going to fill up.

One is going to go out of business at an inopportune time (it happens, look at the for profit colleges we have and the closing private schools). Maybe the state will bail it out as its too important to fail mid year. That will be great.

The unstable or non-cost effective schools are going to get the stragglers.

The rich kids are going to largely be at the most expensive ones which if tradition holds will be pretty good schools. Maybe those will offer a scholarship, especially if the state gives them tax breaks for doing so and our kids can get in. (EDIT: with the rich getting a tax credit or whatever there won't be that little bit of incentive for them to actually use the money the state taxes them for education and not pick a private school)

How are we gonna run sign ups? The state forces the last Monday in July is sign up day every year? You just pay ahead of time like for funerals in the hopes of saving a spot for your 1 year old?

What if the cheap schools fill up and that is all I can afford?

Will we have a way of forcing any of these schools to take special needs kids who can't cost effectively be taught?

No one is going to want to send their kids to where "they" (blacks, latinos, native americans, whoever you pick on locally) largely go.

I presume my old neighbor still have to pay taxes to be given to me to help me pick an expensive school?

Are we gonna Standardize test these kids to let them go onto the next grade? Otherwise some entrepreneur is going to give all his Senior's A's to get them college scholarships and the school a better reputation in the community. (something similar happened at a local nursing school where apparently they graduated everyone and hoped the state tests caught the undeserving)

What else am I not thinking about? There are positives, right?

 

[EvilCat Breath]

What will happen is exactly what the teacher unions have been scared of. The children who want to achieve and are struggling will be in a charter voucher school. They will have a safe school because trouble makers will be tossed out.

There might be some public schools geared toward special needs children. Mostly the public schools will become low level juvenile delinquent centers.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Who said anything about eliminating public schools?

Wait if they do then does that mean my taxes would be lower since I don't have any school age children?


.

 

[usmbguest5318]

The voucher program/proposal exists to achieve one conservative goals as far as I can tell:

• To boost enrollment and revenue at faith-based schools, many of which seem to be of no-better-than-public-schools' in terms of the education they provide. How do I come to this conclusion? Mostly it has to do with my observation/analysis that suggests that of the top private schools to which one might want to send their child, none of them (in my area or outside of it, but that I'm yet familiar with) is priced so that low income families can expect to make up the difference between what the voucher covers and what the school charges. The only private schools that have low enough tuition are parochial schools. I strongly suggest that others here perform an analysis of their own city/town to see if the same is true.
  • I looked at a list of the top schools -- private and public -- in my area. The two top ranked schools are public schools and there are several other public schools that clearly can produce just as well educated students as can the private schools in the area. That suggests there isn't much actual need for a voucher program. One of the top ranked schools has tuition that with tuitionassistance maybe puts it within reach of the voucher sum noted in your OP: Charles E. Smith Jewish Day School -- ~$33K, however, the school pretty well guarantees students from modest income families will get tuition assistance, so maybe (?) that puts it within reach of a voucher program?
  • I checked the school I went to, those my kids went to, and the rival schools to find out if they participate in any voucher programs. They don't. Some of the top schools in my city do participate in the program, and some of them have scholarship opportunities that may make it possible for a voucher qualified D.C. school student to attend.
    
    I can tell you that at the school with which I have close involvement, there is up to a 90% aid opportunity for a few very deserving -- financially, extracurricularly, and academically -- students. That said, even with the voucher, $30K+ is quite a lot to come up with for a would be qualifying family whose child earns admission to the school, which itself isn't easy as we have very capable kids from all over the world applying.
  • I looked at a list of the top private high schools in the country to see if there were any that might come within range of a voucher program. The closest was:
    • Cistercian Preparatory School -- ~$23K (Catholic)
  • I cross referenced the prior list with a list of the top Christian high schools in the U.S. There wasn't one bit of overlap. Looking at the first three schools on the list, I found the following:
    1. Alabama Christian Academy -- ~$8500
    2. Archbishop Carroll -- $13,446
    3. Asheville Christian Academy -- ~$11K - $13K, depending on whether the student takes AP or honors classes. (Tell me that's not hilarious. You can pay less and get less education.)
    4. Barrington Christian Academy -- ~$15.5K
    5. Barean Christian -- ~$8K
  • I looked at a list of the top public high schools in the U.S. On that list I saw the top ranked D.C. area school listed at #5. The lowest ranked public school on the D.C. list, McLean, is ranked 105 on the national list of public schools and has an average SAT score of 1126. Archbishop Carroll (see above) has an average SAT score of 1080.

Based on the above analysis, I can't find any evidence that a voucher program can do anything to improve the education a student receives over whatever is the quality public school in the area. It's also important to note that not all private schools participate in voucher programs. Even so, I truly don't see the point of implementing a voucher program to send students to schools that, on average, don't really "crank out" grads who are any better prepared for college/life than does the public school system. (Private schools don't generally offer trade programs as their whole reason for being is for their graduates to matriculate to college.)

I cannot comment on the quality of curriculum at some of the Christian schools because they don't disclose it. What I noticed about Carroll's classes is that they are what students can get in the public school system. What I can tell you is that students attending the best high schools have the opportunity to graduate from them with the near equivalent of college sophomore status in terms of the breadth of subject matter they've studied. That allows them to either accelerate their collegiate career or study more at the lower cost undergraduate tuition rates, and graduate in four years with a Master's degree rather than a bachelor's, or they can just enjoy college and take all sorts of interesting elective courses.

To get a sense of what I mean by that, take a look at Andover's course catalog (or that of any of the other Ten Schools). What you'll find if you look, for example, at the math curriculum, is that students can take courses like differential equations and liner algebra. For students aspiring to engineering, physics or other other sciences, getting those courses done in high school is a huge boon. The other departments as well offer many classes that are typically only found in colleges and universities. Thus it doesn't matter whether the student prefers arts or sciences, they enter college with a huge advantage over their classmates. (Note the pace at which the classes move. Quite often you'll see that courses complete in five, ten or 15 week spans, rather than whole school years, much as do college courses....thus, in part, why it's called "prep school.")

I wanted to point that out because, for most part, I suspect that pretty much any school that makes onto the Top 50 or higher on just about any rating organization's list is quite likely a very good school. That said, there are nonetheless academics that distinguish the very best from the rest. The academic offerings one quick way for folks who aren't familiar with a given school to get a sense of what kinds of and what levels of academics are taught there and up to what level the students there perform. It's something else, besides test scores and college admittances, that gives one a sense of the teaching level. It also gives one a sense of the learning level kids are capable of if they but apply themselves. (It's worth noting that Thomas Jefferson offers a fairly comparable range of courses as do Ten Schools.)


From my point of view, if a school district is going to offer a voucher program, the reason needs to be to make available to the students something they cannot otherwise obtain in the public school system. From what I can tell, unless a student is going to attend a top private school as a top performer who can avail themselves of the advantages such as that described above, I don't see there being much that they cannot obtain from the public school system. Also, I don't think I'm at all keen on the notion of tax dollars, via a voucher program, subsidising faith-based schools, not even excellent ones like Sidwell (Quaker), Groton and St. Albans (both Episcopal).

(Oddly, though each of three just mentioned schools is Christian, for some strange reason, they, along with many Catholic (Jesuit or otherwise) and other Quaker and Episcopal schools don't appear on lists of top Christian schools. I have yet to figure out why evaluators don't generally include such institutions with other so-called Christian schools. Only Niche seems to put them all together.)

Note:

I didn't look through schools that provide K-12 education. There may be some in that list that are highly rated and that have tuition within voucher range.​

 

[Fishlore]

I am getting more skeptical on this the more I think about it. Then again it is just me and the internet here so set me straight.

How would a dream voucher system work?

Lets say I am in year 5 of the voucher system and we have eliminated public schools. Between my home and work there are 10 grade schools in the area.

- They range in cost from $4500 a year to $13,500.

So the cheapest school is going to fill up with kids from family's which can't afford better. They'll get the cruddiest education and be surrounded by kids from similar families.

The most cost effective couple schools are going to fill up.

One is going to go out of business at an inopportune time (it happens, look at the for profit colleges we have and the closing private schools). Maybe the state will bail it out as its too important to fail mid year. That will be great.

The unstable or non-cost effective schools are going to get the stragglers.

The rich kids are going to largely be at the most expensive ones which if tradition holds will be pretty good schools. Maybe those will offer a scholarship, especially if the state gives them tax breaks for doing so and our kids can get in. (EDIT: with the rich getting a tax credit or whatever there won't be that little bit of incentive for them to actually use the money the state taxes them for education and not pick a private school)

How are we gonna run sign ups? The state forces the last Monday in July is sign up day every year? You just pay ahead of time like for funerals in the hopes of saving a spot for your 1 year old?

What if the cheap schools fill up and that is all I can afford?

Will we have a way of forcing any of these schools to take special needs kids who can't cost effectively be taught?

No one is going to want to send their kids to where "they" (blacks, latinos, native americans, whoever you pick on locally) largely go.

I presume my old neighbor still have to pay taxes to be given to me to help me pick an expensive school?

Are we gonna Standardize test these kids to let them go onto the next grade? Otherwise some entrepreneur is going to give all his Senior's A's to get them college scholarships and the school a better reputation in the community. (something similar happened at a local nursing school where apparently they graduated everyone and hoped the state tests caught the undeserving)

What else am I not thinking about? There are positives, right?

Voucher systems operate under state law and vary from state to state. In general, the voucher is calculated as a portion of tuition and does not include capital costs of building the school, which are always in the millions of dollars. Vouchers do not cover the full cost of educating the child and so are a form of subsidy.

Vouchers reduce the operating cost of schools providing a curriculum which the public school either does not or cannot offer. The voucher lowers the cost to Muslim parents, for example, of sending their child to a madrassa where Sharia is taught. Public schools cannot teach religious education.

Public schools do offer a heterogeneous environment in which kids of different religions are educated together. Public schools in Europe place heavy emphasis on this fact as a virtue, a building of mutual understanding and tolerance of great benefit to the society when the kids grow up. This aspect of the issue seems little valued in America these days.

 

[Dragonlady]

The best and cheapest form of education is to eliminate Charter Schools, and set up a standardized cirriculum for the nation.

The idea that States should control education comes from the conditions which existed in Colonial times and are no longer exist today.

In the days of the Founders, people were born, grew up, lived and died all in one locale. They didn't move from one state to another. Today, this is a rarity. People move from the country to the city, from state to state, and basically, follow the jobs.

In the days of the Founders, what skills you needed to learn, depended on where you lived. If you lived in an agricultural state, then you needed to know about life in your state, its geography, conditions, and the skills required by the community. If you lived in the forests of New England, you needed other information for your survival, and other skills for your trades.

Today, staying in one town or even in one state all of your life, is less common. Everybody is from somewhere else. The skills required to succeed these days are also more homogenized. Everyone needs English, math, science and computer skills. I would say that a basic course in civics is also required.

Since you have 5 million jobs and even more people out of work, I would say that the biggest problem you have is your schools are not teaching the skills the economy requires.

But you people can't even agree on a common core - a skill set that every state's education department can agree is required. It used to be "reading, writing and arithmetic".

And stop blaming teachers for how the kids are turning out. If the states weren't so concerned about "liberal bias", and were more concerned about teaching kids science and technology, you wouldn't have 5 million jobs which cannot be filled.

You're teaching to the "cowboy economy". Time to teach to the skills for the 21st Century.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Since you have 5 million jobs and even more people out of work, I would say that the biggest problem you have is your schools are not teaching the skills the economy requires.

I'm not sure I think schools aren't teaching the skills the economy requires. To the extent there is a skills gap, it appears to me that it's students who either aren't taking the requisite classes or who aren't mastering the subject matter.

All the following schools are public schools. (I listed three Chicago schools because for all we hear about violence in Chicago, one would think students and schools there must be horrible. That can't be the case given the classes offered at those schools.)

• Adlai E. Stevenson High School (Lincolnshire, IL) course offerings
  
• Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics & Humanities (Muncie, IN) course offerings
  
• Staten Island Technical High School (NY) course offerings
  
• Gwinnett School of Mathematics, Science, and Technology (Lawrenceville, GA) course offerings
  
• Walter Payton College Prep (Chicago) course offerings
  
• Northside College Prep (Chicago) course offerings
• Young Magnet High School (Chicago) course offerings
  
• Troy High School (Fullerton, CA) course offerings -- This school provides a useful illustration of how public schools partner with local colleges/universities to make courses available to their students even though the public school itself doesn't offer a given class on its own campus.
  
• Staples High School (Westport, CT) course offerings
  
• The Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science (Columbus, MS) course offerings
  
• School Without Walls (D.C.) course offerings
• McKinley Tech (D.C.) course offerings -- This school offers both trade and academic classes.
• Liberal Arts & Science Academy (Austin, TX) course offerings
  
• Bozeman High School (Bozeman, MT) course offerings
• Maine School of Science & Mathematics (Limestone, ME) course offerings
  
• Poolesville High School (Poolesville, MD) course offerings -- This school's site took me to the course offerings for the whole county.

Just looking through the offerings of a small sample of public schools around the country, it doesn't look to me as though schools aren't offering relevant content.

I think it safe to say many public schools focus on preparing kids for college. I suspect some folks may try to claim that one doesn't need a college or graduate school degree to succeed, and in an absolute sense, I can't say they are incorrect. That said, of the various paths one might take to achieve economic and personal satisfaction, getting a college degree and doing well in the course of doing so is among the easiest paths to follow in achieving the noted ends. After all, one need only "follow the directions" and it pretty much leads to a decent life.

Of course, individuals can "make their own way," and that can work really well too, but doing that is considerably harder -- the options are fewer and, in order to stand out and be recognized above the hoi polloi and at or above competitors with formal training and credentials in the discipline, one must be an exceptional performer at whatever it is one opts to pursue. One must have some sort of distinctive competency that is obvious to the "gatekeepers" who will facilitate one's advancement over the course of a career. In contrast, going the college route, one need not "come into greatness" quite as early in life for the degree "buys" one a measure of the benefit of the doubt as goes one's potential to be a high performer within the foreseeable future.

And really, there's no reason a high performing student cannot go to college (or post-high school trade training), and do so without entering post collegiate life with mountains of debt. At the very least, one can have Uncle Sam pay for it via Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines ROTC, or one of the Coast Guard programs.

If the states weren't so concerned about "liberal bias", and were more concerned about teaching kids science and technology, you wouldn't have 5 million jobs which cannot be filled.

It's easy to make the assertion you have (bold), but I think you've got a very tough way to go to show that statement is credible. Just clicking on the links for the schools I listed above, there's little suggesting that schools aren't sufficiently "concerned about teaching kids science and technology"...and that's before considering that there are other paths to success that don't require a STEM-focused education.

You're teaching to the "cowboy economy". Time to teach to the skills for the 21st Century.

I'm not so sure that "reading, writing and 'rithmetic" (RRR) is inappropriate even here in the 21st century. Students who truly master RRR, along with the other basics -- English grammar and literature, history, the three main sciences, a bit of art/music, and playing a team sport of some sort -- will obtain the foundational learning skills and body of knowledge that prepares them for just about anything. The trick with that type of educational background is that it requires one to be good at integrative and abstract thinking, that is, one must be good at "putting together two and two."

That approach to education isn't about laying everything out in a tidy little "roadmap" of sorts. It conceptually says to a student:

• Here're are two stones and these are their properties. Now using your own critical thinking and observational skills, you figure out how to turn one stone into a blade and use the other one to sharpen it from time to time, and use either along with dry plant matter to make a fire. Use the tools and your knowledge of them to become the master of the world around you to with equal aplomb catch fish, rabbit, deer and birds, cook them, build shelter, make clothing, etc. In short use the knowledge you've been given to accurately and completely analyze and solve the problems that life sends your way.

Students are forced to think and extend the raw knowledge they are taught in classes. Frankly, I think that approach creates individuals who are better prepared to face life's challenges, but I won't deny that the kids who don't rise to the challenge presented by the pedagogy of integrated critical thinking will likely not achieve great success. The kids who thrive under that approach, however, will not (short of unforeseeable calamity) find themselves at 50-something wondering how they'll afford themselves if they should live to be 80+. They also will not find themselves stymied wondering what to do when new challenges present themselves; they'll simply apply their knowledge and critical thinking skills to the matter, overcome it and move forward.

 

[Picaro]

The voucher scam is just pandering freebies for votes to the middle and upper classes, giving them a nice discount on private school tuition they were going to pay anyway. Unless these 'vouchers' are for $30,000+ or more practically, $50,000+, they are essentially worthless to the average poor or working class parent. 'Charter schools' aren't a panacea; they will still be forced to hire incompetents and loons to fill teaching slots the same as public schools have to, so it's a wash all around. Change the stupid formula for handing out Federal funds to schools based on seat-warming, it's ridiculous on its face, and 'charter schools' will be doing the same thing, focusing on keeping seats warm will be the priority, not education.

Simply going back to the teaching methods used prior to the 1960's will do far more. Handing idiots laptops and feeding them a lot of propaganda doesn't do a damn thing for them, and neither does social promotion and awarding 'special bonus points' to somebody's grades just because they're some 'minority' is especially stupid as a policy. If your goal is an assembly line cranking out half-wits with high self-esteem, then of course you consider the current state of public education as already wildly successful, and don't want to change anything as it is now.

 

[usmbguest5318]

As a practical matter, quite a few states stipulate earnings maximums in order for students to be eligible to receive a voucher; however, not all states have such eligibility requirements.

• SCHOOL VOUCHER LAWS: STATE-BY-STATE COMPARISON
  
• Federal Poverty Guidelines

I realize that the income limitations may be more and less relevant to any voucher program discussion because the cost of living varies from one locality to another. A family with one child and living on $47K isn't at all living a middle, upper middle or upper class (economically) existence in SF, D.C. or NYC. They may be in other places.

That said, one must look state by state or at a specific state to get any real sense of what's what with that state's voucher program. The rules among the states has too much variability for one to generalize in any overall way about voucher programs as they pertain to income and whether vouchers are "for middle and upper income" folks to get a subsidy for sending their kids to private school.

 

[sartre play]

Lets put the time money energy to Improve public schools. give all our kids an even chance. see if that helps some of our problems.

 

[Picaro]

Public schools are all technically 'private' schools now; there is no Federal school district system, they're all independent districts. The issue is how much control these schools want to give away to the ridiculous strings put on Federal funds, is all. And yes, vouchers will indeed be subsidies for every student attending a school taking vouchers, as the money will go toward financing the school and thus every student going there, so it doesn't matter if there are 'limits' or not, and in fact the vouchers would never be enough to pay for a genuine 'private school experience' for very very poor or working class students; no poor or working class family is going to have the resources or time to get their kid(s) from South Dallas to classes in Plano every morning or where ever, they're still going to be choosing from schools that are nearby and already pretty much the same socioeconomic region they're in now.

 

[BULLDOG]

What will happen is exactly what the teacher unions have been scared of. The children who want to achieve and are struggling will be in a charter voucher school. They will have a safe school because trouble makers will be tossed out.

There might be some public schools geared toward special needs children. Mostly the public schools will become low level juvenile delinquent centers.

All public schools already have to provide for special needs kids. Private schools don't. The money allowed for each student won't be enough to pay tuition to most private schools, so the poor won't be able to take advantage of it anyway. The rich, who already can afford to send their kids to private schools will get a subsidy which is taken away from our already under funded public schools. Great deal for the well off. More of a screwing for the rest.

 

[jwoodie]

Lets say I am in year 5 of the voucher system and we have eliminated public schools.

False premise. A large majority of parents are satisfied with their public schools. Why shouldn't those who are not have some other options?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Lets put the time money energy to Improve public schools. give all our kids an even chance. see if that helps some of our problems.

Been tried, failed miserably in some places, fairly successful in others. Bottom line, parents who give a rat's patootie about the quality of their children's' education will use vouchers to seek out schools that meet their requirements, leaving public schools that vomit PC BS and provide touchy-feely, participation awards in the dust with the dregs whose parents should have been neutered before producing offspring.

 

[Picaro]

You can buy a pretty decent home schooling curriculum for the lower grade levels for around $600-$800 a year. Just changing back to the old teaching methods will go a long way to 'equalizing' outcomes. Those teaching methods created the scientists, engineers, writers, and the like that sent us to the moon, invented computers, lasers, micro-electronics, etc., etc, and with far less than the current 'education professionals' who can't even seem to teach children how to make change for a dollar or make it through a day without being fed drugz n hugz, need 'safe spaces' on college campuses, ad nauseam.

And yes, if one's parents don't give a rat's ass, no amount of money is going to make a difference, and neither is flooding our school systems with criminal illegal aliens or allowing hood rats to control them going to produce anything.

 

[BULLDOG]

Lets say I am in year 5 of the voucher system and we have eliminated public schools.

False premise. A large majority of parents are satisfied with their public schools. Why shouldn't those who are not have some other options?

Because public school funding is taken and given to private schools ho don't have to meet the same standards.

 

[jwoodie]

On a state-by-state basis, spending on education is inversely proportional to student achievement.

 

[2aguy]

This is how they would work....

Most people are happy with the school in their town, or don't pay much attention to what their kids are learning so they will simply use the voucher in the same school their kids go to now.

For the kids in a bad, democrat run school......they will have a chance to actually get an education. If you watch Waiting for Superman...or the other movie about education in America...you will see thousands of people lined up to get one of a hundred slots for private and charter schools...to get their kids out of the hell holes they attend....and only those few hundred can do it.....

Vouchers changes that.....they will increase the number of schools available since there will not be a block to private schools to open.....the parents can take the dollars for educating their children anywhere they want.....they won't be locked into a school simply because they live in that school district....

 

[2aguy]

Lets say I am in year 5 of the voucher system and we have eliminated public schools.

False premise. A large majority of parents are satisfied with their public schools. Why shouldn't those who are not have some other options?

Because public school funding is taken and given to private schools ho don't have to meet the same standards.

Are you serious? You don't understand the dynamic, do you? If the private school doesn't educate kids.....the parents can take the money and go to another school....you do realize this...don't you? Right now, if your kid is in a bad public school...you either move your home to another school district, because you can't just go to the school in the next town, you are blocked by the law and the unions....or, after paying taxes to pay for the public school, you have to make even more money to pay your own way at a private school....and most poor people can't do this.

Now...with vouchers....poor people will have power......if a school is bad, they can take their dollars and go to another school...they aren't trapped. That means? Schools will have to educate children....or those parents can escape....

Why is that so hard to understand? If a school doesn't teach "to meet the same standards"....then the parents can leave......and find another school...

That means schools will actually have to meet those standards....which they do not have to do right now...as we see in Chicago where only 30% meet the math standard at grade level......is that "meeting the same standard?"

 

[BULLDOG]

This is how they would work....

Most people are happy with the school in their town, or don't pay much attention to what their kids are learning so they will simply use the voucher in the same school their kids go to now.

For the kids in a bad, democrat run school......they will have a chance to actually get an education. If you watch Waiting for Superman...or the other movie about education in America...you will see thousands of people lined up to get one of a hundred slots for private and charter schools...to get their kids out of the hell holes they attend....and only those few hundred can do it.....

Vouchers changes that.....they will increase the number of schools available since there will not be a block to private schools to open.....the parents can take the dollars for educating their children anywhere they want.....they won't be locked into a school simply because they live in that school district....

What about the cost to students? Will the cost be the same as the amount allowed on the vouchers, or will it turn into nothing more than subsidizing the rich , who can afford private schools anyway, at the expense of public school funding?