Vouchers? For or Against?

[candycorn]

I was curious…what does the board think about vouchers for school selection?

 

[depotoo]

For. It gives kids a better chance.

 

[candycorn]

For. It gives kids a better chance.

I’m pretty much fed up with the current way of doing things but I don’t think vouchers are the way to go. I think what you do is this; have exit exams at the beginning of every odd numbered school year 7-11 grade. If there is no “hope”, that family gets a voucher and they need to send their kid to some place that will either focus them if there is hope or, frankly, let them go; teach them a skill, that will provide for them like AC/Heating, repairing engines, etc… I’m of the opinion that we have WAY too much “fat” in the classrooms (kids who don’t want to be there, parents who are indifferent, and teachers who cannot reach them) as well as too much “fat” in our curriculums (subjects that teach next to nothing directly useful like latin or French, sports spending that is out of control, and electives that are based on fun instead of instruction).

I started the thread though, to find out about vouchers…how will they work? Feel free to comment on what I wrote above if you want but I’m more interested in reading your vision…

Okay…can you describe how that would work? Or do you know of any videos that would explain it that are not too long or cumbersome? I mean…for example, lets say the FEDs gave you $10,000 for your daughter’s 7th grade year. English is $3,000, Mathematics is $3,000, Gym is $1500, leaving you $2,500 for science, history, and foreign languages… Would it work that way to where you could schedule your kid. Perhaps you prefer to teach her (for lack of a better way to put it) YOUR version of history and save that money. Would it get put back into the system, save it for next school year or what exactly? Or lets say that you spend all $10K, would you have to chunk in some of your own money to complete the curriculum? If you worked at night, would you be able to possibly find a school that had courses in the PM so when you got off at 10PM, your kid would be finishing up school?

Please describe a voucher world to me if you would.

 

[yiostheoy]

Vouchers are a state issue not Federal.

The states can allow the counties to give tax credit vouchers (script) to the property tax payers so that they can use them to pay for private school for their kids.

This really only applies to homeowners.

Renters would probably not be covered by the program.

And if you don't have kids then you don't get them.

Only for parents.

A federal program would be really expensive and hard to administer, since the Feds don't have access to property tax funds of the counties.

So the Feds can't do it -- it would be too expensive like Bernie's free college tuition.

 

[Disir]

I'm against it. I have posted repeatedly on it on the education forum.

 

[DGS49]

There are many good reasons why a parent would want to opt out of the public school system. And if the child is not educated at the public school(s), then the school district saves some money (although calculating an amount is problematic).

Assuming that the alternative school is "accredited," then the parents should get some amount to pay for the alternative schooling. Nothing for home schooling. You are on your own.

This basic principle is so fundamental that it should go without saying, however, vouchers are HATED by teachers' unions for many reasons, none of which have any validity or worth. And of course Dem politicians are in the pockets of the teachers' unions, so implementing a voucher program is quite difficult in most areas.

 

[Disir]

Dems are profiting off of it too. And there is that whole fraud thingy.

 

[ScienceRocks]

If the republicans weren't so hell bent on cutting public education I'd probably be ok with vouchers. I think the parents should have the choice.

What I really wish the republican party would focus on is improving public education instead of ripping it down.

 

[initforme]

Send all problem and behavioral students to voucher schools. They cannot refuse and MUST accept all students. They CANNOT under any circumstances expel the student.

 

[boedicca]

Vouchers all the way.

Let poor parents have the choice to send their kids to better (including private, relidious) schools or homeschool instead of being held hostage by Teachers' Unions and the Politicians who profit from their union funneled campaign donations.

 

[candycorn]

Again, will someone who is for vouchers describe a voucher world for me?

 

[Kristian]

I am For the Kids.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I’m pretty much fed up with the current way of doing things but I don’t think vouchers are the way to go. I think what you do is this; have exit exams at the beginning of every odd numbered school year 7-11 grade. If there is no “hope”, that family gets a voucher and they need to send their kid to some place that will either focus them if there is hope or, frankly, let them go; teach them a skill, that will provide for them like AC/Heating, repairing engines, etc… I’m of the opinion that we have WAY too much “fat” in the classrooms (kids who don’t want to be there, parents who are indifferent, and teachers who cannot reach them) as well as too much “fat” in our curriculums (subjects that teach next to nothing directly useful like latin or French, sports spending that is out of control, and electives that are based on fun instead of instruction).

I started the thread though, to find out about vouchers…how will they work? Feel free to comment on what I wrote above if you want but I’m more interested in reading your vision…

Okay…can you describe how that would work? Or do you know of any videos that would explain it that are not too long or cumbersome? I mean…for example, lets say the FEDs gave you $10,000 for your daughter’s 7th grade year. English is $3,000, Mathematics is $3,000, Gym is $1500, leaving you $2,500 for science, history, and foreign languages… Would it work that way to where you could schedule your kid. Perhaps you prefer to teach her (for lack of a better way to put it) YOUR version of history and save that money. Would it get put back into the system, save it for next school year or what exactly? Or lets say that you spend all $10K, would you have to chunk in some of your own money to complete the curriculum? If you worked at night, would you be able to possibly find a school that had courses in the PM so when you got off at 10PM, your kid would be finishing up school?

Please describe a voucher world to me if you would.

I prefer the Belgian system, myself

A system where the funding follows the student and where it is possible to attend any school of choice (regardless of family income) forces public and private schools to compete for students among themselves and with each other. If parent and student decide that the present school does not deliver, they are able to seek a better school elsewhere. If enough students leave, the school faces bankruptcy and liquidation. This provides a powerful incentive for administrators and teachers to keep a lean operation and continually improve on the service they deliver.

By contrast, public education in the United States operates in a manner reminiscent of medieval feudalism. Students seem like indentured peasants, tied to the local manor (the school district) and unable to work (study) anywhere else than on the land of the manor. No outsiders are allowed access to the manor. Money and wealth remain with the manor. Only those who possess independent wealth have the freedom of choice to go elsewhere and find the best education available. This country, famous for its commitment to freedom and equal opportunity, allows near-monopolies in education that deliver a poor product, offer indifferent service, and resist innovation.

European observations on U.S. public education

 

[candycorn]

I’m pretty much fed up with the current way of doing things but I don’t think vouchers are the way to go. I think what you do is this; have exit exams at the beginning of every odd numbered school year 7-11 grade. If there is no “hope”, that family gets a voucher and they need to send their kid to some place that will either focus them if there is hope or, frankly, let them go; teach them a skill, that will provide for them like AC/Heating, repairing engines, etc… I’m of the opinion that we have WAY too much “fat” in the classrooms (kids who don’t want to be there, parents who are indifferent, and teachers who cannot reach them) as well as too much “fat” in our curriculums (subjects that teach next to nothing directly useful like latin or French, sports spending that is out of control, and electives that are based on fun instead of instruction).

I started the thread though, to find out about vouchers…how will they work? Feel free to comment on what I wrote above if you want but I’m more interested in reading your vision…

Okay…can you describe how that would work? Or do you know of any videos that would explain it that are not too long or cumbersome? I mean…for example, lets say the FEDs gave you $10,000 for your daughter’s 7th grade year. English is $3,000, Mathematics is $3,000, Gym is $1500, leaving you $2,500 for science, history, and foreign languages… Would it work that way to where you could schedule your kid. Perhaps you prefer to teach her (for lack of a better way to put it) YOUR version of history and save that money. Would it get put back into the system, save it for next school year or what exactly? Or lets say that you spend all $10K, would you have to chunk in some of your own money to complete the curriculum? If you worked at night, would you be able to possibly find a school that had courses in the PM so when you got off at 10PM, your kid would be finishing up school?

Please describe a voucher world to me if you would.

I prefer the Belgian system, myself

A system where the funding follows the student and where it is possible to attend any school of choice (regardless of family income) forces public and private schools to compete for students among themselves and with each other. If parent and student decide that the present school does not deliver, they are able to seek a better school elsewhere. If enough students leave, the school faces bankruptcy and liquidation. This provides a powerful incentive for administrators and teachers to keep a lean operation and continually improve on the service they deliver.

By contrast, public education in the United States operates in a manner reminiscent of medieval feudalism. Students seem like indentured peasants, tied to the local manor (the school district) and unable to work (study) anywhere else than on the land of the manor. No outsiders are allowed access to the manor. Money and wealth remain with the manor. Only those who possess independent wealth have the freedom of choice to go elsewhere and find the best education available. This country, famous for its commitment to freedom and equal opportunity, allows near-monopolies in education that deliver a poor product, offer indifferent service, and resist innovation.

European observations on U.S. public education

Fully agree with the 2nd part.

My question is for the 1st part.

So if I understand it correctly...in Belgium the parents and teachers can pick this school here or that school over there and it will be same price or is there a price difference? Is there a "menu" of classes they can select from? I don't have time to look at the link right now--will do tomorrow--if it answers the questions I'm asking.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I was curious…what does the board think about vouchers for school selection?

Whether one is ‘for’ or ‘against’ really isn’t the issue.

The issue is that for quite some time now the research and evidence have long indicated that ‘voucher programs’ are of little merit:

The University of Arkansas’ School Choice Demonstration Project has been commissioned to perform a five-year study comparing voucher students to demographically similar public school students. Two years into the study, the results are not looking promising for vouchers.

Through the 2007-2008 school year, two years into the study, researchers found that there was no difference in academic achievement among the elementary, middle, and high school students who were tested. Students receiving vouchers failed to outperform their public school counterparts.

The University of Arkansas research is not the first study that failed to show achievement gains among Milwaukee students receiving vouchers. As the study authors point out, a previous study by University of Wisconsin researcher John Witte compared voucher students to public school students from 1990-1995 and found “no clear evidence” that vouchers improved student achievement.

Study Finds Vouchers Fail to Raise Student Achievement - NEA Today

 

[PurpleOwl]

School vouchers were created to suppress the working class, by allowing politically active parents to send their kids to private or to magnet schools, instead of fixing their own local public schools, the only reason to send your child to private school, is because your public school system is lacking in some way. If that is the case then we should fix the public schools system not just give a few loudmouth parents a free ticket to private school so you can keep taxes low, and the next generation of american kids dumb

 

[Skull Pilot]

If a parent doesn't send his kids to public school they should get their share of taxes that would have been used to educate their children back

 

[Muhammed]

I was curious…what does the board think about vouchers for school selection?

The system varies from state to state, but here if the parents choose to have their child go to a private school they can get up to a $2,500/year scholarship depending on their income.

It's a great program.

 

[Muhammed]

School vouchers were created to suppress the working class, by allowing politically active parents to send their kids to private or to magnet schools, instead of fixing their own local public schools, the only reason to send your child to private school, is because your public school system is lacking in some way. If that is the case then we should fix the public schools system not just give a few loudmouth parents a free ticket to private school so you can keep taxes low, and the next generation of american kids dumb

 

[candycorn]

I was curious…what does the board think about vouchers for school selection?

Whether one is ‘for’ or ‘against’ really isn’t the issue.

The issue is that for quite some time now the research and evidence have long indicated that ‘voucher programs’ are of little merit:

The University of Arkansas’ School Choice Demonstration Project has been commissioned to perform a five-year study comparing voucher students to demographically similar public school students. Two years into the study, the results are not looking promising for vouchers.

Through the 2007-2008 school year, two years into the study, researchers found that there was no difference in academic achievement among the elementary, middle, and high school students who were tested. Students receiving vouchers failed to outperform their public school counterparts.

The University of Arkansas research is not the first study that failed to show achievement gains among Milwaukee students receiving vouchers. As the study authors point out, a previous study by University of Wisconsin researcher John Witte compared voucher students to public school students from 1990-1995 and found “no clear evidence” that vouchers improved student achievement.

Study Finds Vouchers Fail to Raise Student Achievement - NEA Today

Okay, how is it working????

Please don’t just say, “it isn’t”.

Are kids just allowed to choose a school without worrying about costs? Like—I’ll just name 5 schools—

• Oak Elementary $18,000 Per month (Bus service, 7 B- teachers, facilities, library, gymnasium, security)
• Pine Private Academy $26,000 Per month (7 A++ rated teachers, enhanced facilities, library, gym security, A+ grounds)
• Advanced Christian Academy $20,000 Per month (Christ-centered education, 7 teachers, facilities, library, gym, security, A+ grounds)
• Central City Elementary $14,500 Per month (7 C+ rated teachers, facilities, library, gym, security, dilapidated campus,)
• LaTourneau K-12 Online School $6,000 Per month (on-line education, access to proprietary libraries, private lecture videos)

Can kids in your link’s examples just be sent to whatever campus without worrying about the inherent differences in costs between a private school’s spending on (for example) admin vs. a more centralized public school that doesn’t have a board of directors for each campus or whatever. Like Pine Pvt above attracts A++ teachers because they pay them better so the costs are greater….are parent’s getting a voucher that just covers everything or do they need to do the math and add money in to a voucher to send their kid there?