US troops torch Two tally ban

manu1959

Left Coast Isolationist
Oct 28, 2004
13,761
1,652
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california
ok this is just stupid.....a US offical says on the news a minute ago.....

"We are very concerned how they will react to this?"

yea they might attack us!
 
manu1959 said:
ok this is just stupid.....a US offical says on the news a minute ago.....

"We are very concerned how they will react to this?"

yea they might attack us!
Duh! Who is the bright light?
 
can we keep the media away from the military like we did in ww2? they are nothing but problems in a war like this.


http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-asia/2005/oct/20/102007032.html


Afghans Outraged Over Alleged Desecration
By DANIEL COONEY
ASSOCIATED PRESS

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -

Islamic clerics expressed outrage Thursday at television footage that purportedly shows U.S. soldiers burning the bodies of two dead Taliban fighters to taunt other militants and warned of a possible violent anti-American backlash.

President Hamid Karzai condemned the alleged desecration and ordered an inquiry. The operational commander of the U.S. military in Afghanistan, which launched its own criminal probe, said the alleged act, if true, was "repugnant."

Worried about the potential for anti-American feelings over the incident, the State Department said it instructed U.S. embassies around the globe to tell local governments that the reported abuse did not reflect American values.

Cremating bodies is banned under Islam, and one Muslim leader in Afghanistan compared the video to photographs of U.S. troops abusing prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

"Abu Ghraib ruined the reputation of the Americans in Iraq and to me this is even worse," said Faiz Mohammed, a top cleric in northern Kunduz province. "This is against Islam. Afghans will be shocked by this news. It is so humiliating. There will be very, very dangerous consequences from this."

Anger also was evident in the streets.

"If they continue to carry out such actions against us, our people will change their policy and react with the same policy against them," said Mehrajuddin, a resident of Kabul, who like many Afghans uses only one name.

Another man in the capital, Zahidullah, said the reported abuse was like atrocities committed by Soviet troops, who were driven out of Afghanistan in 1989 after a decade of occupation. He warned that the same could happen to American forces.

"Their future will be like the Russians," Zahidullah said.

In Washington, the U.S. government also condemned the alleged incident.

The allegation was "very serious" and "very troubling," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said. His comment came after the department said U.S. embassies had been told to inform foreigners that abuse of remains "is not reflective of our values."

The report also generated congressional debate with Senate Republicans saying the alleged U.S. troop participation goes to the heart of why Congress must pass legislation to standardize techniques used in the detention, interrogation and prosecution of detainees in the war on terrorism.

"This is a very, very serious problem," said Sen. John Warner, R-Va., and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. He said the situation raises a question that must be answered: "What was the command and control that allowed this situation to happen?"

The move suggested U.S. worries about an anti-American uproar like Afghan riots in May that erupted after Newsweek said U.S. soldiers at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility desecrated Islam's holy book, the Quran. Newsweek later retracted the story.

The alleged body burning comes as the U.S. military is struggling to bolster its image in Afghanistan amid charges by Karzai of heavy-handed tactics in fighting the Taliban.

Australia's SBS television network broadcast the video purportedly showing soldiers burning the bodies of two suspected Taliban fighters in hills outside Gonbaz village in the southern Shah Wali Kot district - an area plagued by Taliban activity and considered by the local security forces as too dangerous to venture into unless accompanied by U.S. troops.

Viewers of the footage saw a group of about five troops in light-colored military fatigues, which did not have any distinguishing marks, standing near to a bonfire in which two bodies were laid side by side. The flames obscured the view of the bodies, making it impossible to tell if the remains were of Taliban fighters.

The network said the video was taken by a freelance journalist, Stephen Dupont. Dupont, who told The Associated Press that he was embedded with the Army's 173rd Airborne Brigade, said the burnings happened Oct. 1.

He told SBS that soldiers in a U.S. Army psychological operations unit later broadcast taunting messages targeting the village, which was believed to be harboring Taliban fighters.

"They deliberately wanted to incite that much anger from the Taliban so the Taliban could attack them. ... That's the only way they can find them," Dupont said.

The video did not show those messages being broadcast, although it showed some military vehicles fitted with speakers and playing loud music.

According to a transcript released by SBS, the messages called the Taliban "cowardly dogs."

"You are too scared to come down and retrieve their bodies," said one message, according to the transcript.

Dupont told the AP the messages were broadcast in the local dialect but were translated into English for him by members of the Army unit. He declined to provide further information.

The U.S. military said the Army Criminal Investigation Command was looking into the matter.

"This alleged action is repugnant to our common values," Maj. Gen. Jason Kamiya said from the U.S. base at Bagram. "This command takes all allegations of misconduct or inappropriate behavior seriously and has directed an investigation into circumstances surrounding this allegation."

A U.S. military spokeswoman, Sgt. Marina Evans, said investigators would check whether the purported act violated the Geneva Convention, which says the dead must be "honorably interred, if possible according to the rites of the religion to which they belonged."

The Afghan Defense Ministry launched its own investigation, Karzai's spokesman, Karim Rahimi, said.

"We strongly condemn any disrespect to human bodies regardless of whether they are those of enemies or friends," he told the AP.

---
 
you know i find it amazing that they comdemn the burning of bodies and say its a againest their religion but its ok for them to basically vaporize people with planes and burn everyone else in the building.
 
Lefty Wilbury said:
you know i find it amazing that they comdemn the burning of bodies and say its a againest their religion but its ok for them to basically vaporize people with planes and burn everyone else in the building.

And don't forget cutting off people's heads while they are still alive and cutting out the innards of people and hanging the desecrated bodies up on poles for all to see.

I also heard Dupont (the Australian who made the video) say on TV that the soldiers were up in the mountains where there was no place to bury the bodies. They told him they burned the bodies because they were afraid of contamination from the dead bodies.
 
Adam's Apple said:
And don't forget cutting off people's heads while they are still alive and cutting out the innards of people and hanging the desecrated bodies up on poles for all to see.

I also heard Dupont (the Australian who made the video) say on TV that the soldiers were up in the mountains where there was no place to bury the bodies. They told him they burned the bodies because they were afraid of contamination from the dead bodies.
That was my first thought.
 
Lefty Wilbury said:
you know i find it amazing that they comdemn the burning of bodies and say its a againest their religion but its ok for them to basically vaporize people with planes and burn everyone else in the building.

But they are killing infidels when they do that
 
Adam's Apple said:
And don't forget cutting off people's heads while they are still alive and cutting out the innards of people and hanging the desecrated bodies up on poles for all to see.

I also heard Dupont (the Australian who made the video) say on TV that the soldiers were up in the mountains where there was no place to bury the bodies. They told him they burned the bodies because they were afraid of contamination from the dead bodies.

Sounds like a "story" to me.

I think the tactic of threatening to burn the bodies to get some taliban out of hiding "might" be a good idea. I think they need to develope tactics as they go, and I fully support that.

Now, everyone in the public eye who can capitalize on this will. Its the same with everything in the public eye. ANYTHING anyone says in public is designed SOLELY to bolster their own posistion and has nothing to do with a persons values, the facts, what they truly believe or the truth. EVERYBODY under the scrutiny of the public eye is subject to "perceptions" and the opinions of the "masses"

As the media has become larger and more widespread, the more deceptive the entire medium becomes.
 
NEW YORK TIMES, 1945 (satire)


Concerns are rising over American brutality toward's their Japanese counterparts. According to reports, American soldiers are employing use of a tool known as a "flame-thrower", which burns Japanese soldiers alive.

"Use of this tool is absolutely unacceptable." said Suzuki Toyota, a Japanese official, in a prepared statement. "Burning soldiers alive goes against our religion. We demand that this practice be halted and these weapons destroyed."

Upon recieving word of the controversy, the Truman Administration went into a panic. "I know the Japanese had the dubious habit of herding American POWs into air-raid shelters and burning them alive, but we are Americans, we are supposed to be better than that." said an anonymous administration official.

This disturbing news of yet another American Atrocity comes just off the heels of a humiliating American defeat on the island of Hondamitsubishi, where 3000 Japanese defenders died but an entire 18 US Marines were killed, forcing a retreat. One prominant senator called the loss "apalling" and wondered if "this 'World War' is worth the horrendous bloodshed inflicted upon American families. This is not the way to victory. We must win their hearts and minds, which is the why National Shinto Act was such an important success." he said, refering to an act which earlier this year made Shinto the official religion of America, with the goal of making the Japanese slaughter Americans with less abandon."
 
theim said:
NEW YORK TIMES, 1945 (satire)


Concerns are rising over American brutality toward's their Japanese counterparts. According to reports, American soldiers are employing use of a tool known as a "flame-thrower", which burns Japanese soldiers alive.

"Use of this tool is absolutely unacceptable." said Suzuki Toyota, a Japanese official, in a prepared statement. "Burning soldiers alive goes against our religion. We demand that this practice be halted and these weapons destroyed."

Upon recieving word of the controversy, the Truman Administration went into a panic. "I know the Japanese had the dubious habit of herding American POWs into air-raid shelters and burning them alive, but we are Americans, we are supposed to be better than that." said an anonymous administration official.

This disturbing news of yet another American Atrocity comes just off the heels of a humiliating American defeat on the island of Hondamitsubishi, where 3000 Japanese defenders died but an entire 18 US Marines were killed, forcing a retreat. One prominant senator called the loss "apalling" and wondered if "this 'World War' is worth the horrendous bloodshed inflicted upon American families. This is not the way to victory. We must win their hearts and minds, which is the why National Shinto Act was such an important success." he said, refering to an act which earlier this year made Shinto the official religion of America, with the goal of making the Japanese slaughter Americans with less abandon."

Let's not forget that our good buddy Mr. Napalm was invented for the purpose of suffocating Japanese machine gun nests built into caves.
 
theim said:
NEW YORK TIMES, 1945 (satire)


Concerns are rising over American brutality toward's their Japanese counterparts. According to reports, American soldiers are employing use of a tool known as a "flame-thrower", which burns Japanese soldiers alive.

"Use of this tool is absolutely unacceptable." said Suzuki Toyota, a Japanese official, in a prepared statement. "Burning soldiers alive goes against our religion. We demand that this practice be halted and these weapons destroyed."

Upon recieving word of the controversy, the Truman Administration went into a panic. "I know the Japanese had the dubious habit of herding American POWs into air-raid shelters and burning them alive, but we are Americans, we are supposed to be better than that." said an anonymous administration official.

This disturbing news of yet another American Atrocity comes just off the heels of a humiliating American defeat on the island of Hondamitsubishi, where 3000 Japanese defenders died but an entire 18 US Marines were killed, forcing a retreat. One prominant senator called the loss "apalling" and wondered if "this 'World War' is worth the horrendous bloodshed inflicted upon American families. This is not the way to victory. We must win their hearts and minds, which is the why National Shinto Act was such an important success." he said, refering to an act which earlier this year made Shinto the official religion of America, with the goal of making the Japanese slaughter Americans with less abandon."

Religion has no place in war, you really think we give a flying fuck what you believe in when you're shooting at us? I don't stop to think, "Oh shit, this is against their religion, I gotta stop using this" while theirs bullets flying over my head. War isn't some game, it's not "fair", it isn't something where you choose which weapons you're gonna use, shake hands and press play.
 
USMCDevilDog said:
Religion has no place in war, you really think we give a flying fuck what you believe in when you're shooting at us? I don't stop to think, "Oh shit, this is against their religion, I gotta stop using this" while theirs bullets flying over my head. War isn't some game, it's not "fair", it isn't something where you choose which weapons you're gonna use, shake hands and press play.


Good analogy, I couldnt agree more. Sun Tzu, a few thousand years ago, mentioned that politics should not fight wars; soldiers and commanders should fight wars. As relevent then as it is today.
 
I got an official warning on another board for suggesting
we should have thrown a few slices of bacon on the fire,
and maybe saved a few more bodies, and thrown a whole hog carcass
on the next, larger fire.

Hurt the hell out of my feelings.
 
USViking said:
I got an official warning on another board for suggesting
we should have thrown a few slices of bacon on the fire,
and maybe saved a few more bodies, and thrown a whole hog carcass
on the next, larger fire.

Hurt the hell out of my feelings.

pm me wich website i feel like getting banned
 
You know, it's offensive to me to see good Christians decapitated, disemboweled, scorched, then hung upside down off a bridge. That's against Christianity.
 
Hobbit said:
You know, it's offensive to me to see good Christians decapitated, disemboweled, scorched, then hung upside down off a bridge. That's against Christianity.

eye for an eye say....fook em
 
Hobbit said:
You know, it's offensive to me to see good Christians decapitated, disemboweled, scorched, then hung upside down off a bridge. That's against Christianity.

Don't we wish that was consensus opinion here in the USA, but, unfortunately, such acts aren't offensive to MANY who live in this country. Offensive acts only rouse their ire and get their attention if they're done by AMERICAN soldiers.
 
If you get through these links, you are trashed on Starbucks!

http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/2005/10/22/1162/

Saturday October 22, 2005
Burning Taliban

********scroll down for updates********

If this situation goes any further at all, I feel a war comin’ on (Pantano style)…


Report Of U.S. Burning Bodies Investigated

The U.S. military said such abuse would be “repugnant,” and the State Department said U.S. embassies around the world have been told to counter a potential backlash by telling local governments that the alleged actions do not reflect American values.



Burning Taliban body - dead 24 hours

The Australian photojournalist, Stephen Dupont, who shot the video footage that is now being splashed around the globe as ‘evidence’ of American atrocities, has been VERY clear that the burning of the bodies was done for hygiene purposes, and not as a deliberate atrocity. He goes on to add that psy-ops then saw an opportunity to send a message to the Taliban to try and “smoke them out” and provoke them to fight the Airborne troops. Dupont’s account is very different from what ended up as the SBS Dateline segment. Anti-US activist/journalist John Martinkus’ report is highly skewed. Here’s an excerpt of Martinkus’ Dateline report:

“At the top of the hills above the village the soldiers have taken the tactics of psychological warfare to a grotesque and disturbing extreme. US soldiers have set fire to the bodies of the two Taliban killed the night before. The burning of the corpses and the fact that they’ve been laid out facing Mecca is a deliberate desecration of Muslim beliefs.”

UPDATE(via IM from Chad at In The Bullpen) : Bare Knuckle Politics is the only place I’ve found that has the uncensored video footage as recorded by Australian Stephen Dupont. BKP says that MSNBC and SBS have already removed their video links for “sensitivity reasons”. He’s got two video links. Must see.

screenshot of video footage

Watch a six minute interview with Dupont. (Real Player required) Here’s a backup link.

Read the transcript of the interview.

Dateline archives with links.

Here’s a transcript of the Dateline Australia segment created around the “controversial” footage.

More headlines on the burnings:

Yahoo News: Afghanistan’s Karzai condemns Taliban body burning

“We in Afghanistan, in accordance with our religion and traditions and adherence to international law, are very unhappy and condemn the burning of two Taliban dead bodies,” Karzai told reporters at the presidential palace.

“We do not like such incidents and I hope such incidents will not occur again.”

And here’s a lesson in human rights from a Taliban spokesman:

Abdul Hai Mutmaen, the Taliban’s chief spokesman, urged Muslim countries to show a united reaction to the incident and challenged right groups over their silence.

“Where are the human right groups? Why are they not raising their voice about this brutality?



Coleman points out bodies not oriented west, as anti-US activist journalist Martinkus claims.

Huh? Is it possible to be brutal to a dead body? Is it as bad as sawing off someone’s head with a steak knife or raping a woman because her cousin twice removed pissed off the wrong family? Hmmm…let me think…

Wait. Let me go here to remind myself what brutality really is, courtesy of Muslims around the world.

Yahoo News: US troops burned bodies in Afghanistan because ‘they stank’

Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK (bookmark this site): Who will stop the disgraceful body burners?

Anti-Islamic warfare is at its peak and this time it has shown its ugly face in a sick and twisted form. The perpetrators of the abuse reported below prefer to call it fancy names like psychological warfare. They have “Specially trained units” to perform these calculated atrocities.

What should Muslims be doing to prevent these kinds of despicable events?

How can we let them get away with human rights abuses and insults to our faith.[sic]

Thank you “mainstream/moderate” Muslims, for reminding us exactly where you stand (as if we ever had any doubt).

Now to counter that crap, here’s a response to the above propaganda from a man named Ahmed:

The Taleban and their allies are quite happy to murder imans, to blow up mosques, and to car-bomb “fellow” muslims.

Yet when one fraction of their irreligousness and brutality is returned, they and their supporters yelp like beaten dogs.

No wonder that Islamism has brought into disrepute. It is the refuge of the weak, the cowardly and unmanly. The Taleban are only brave when they are murdering old men or beating women.

CNN: U.S. probes burning bodies report

The U.S. military said the Army Criminal Investigation Division had opened an investigation into alleged misconduct that included “the burning of dead enemy combatant bodies under inappropriate circumstances.”

Dupont said the soldiers who burned the bodies said they did so for hygiene reasons. However, Dupont said the incendiary messages later broadcast by the U.S. army psychological operations unit indicated they were aware that the cremation would be perceived as a desecration.

“They used that as a psychological warfare, I guess you’d call it. They used the fact that the Taliban were burned facing west (toward Mecca),” Dupont told SBS. “They deliberately wanted to incite that much anger from the Taliban so the Taliban could attack them … . That’s the only way they can find them.”

Time Online Edition: Stench Prompted U.S. Troops to Burn Corpses

There simply wasn’t enough room on the rocky hilltop above Gonbaz village in southern Afghanistan for the U.S. platoon and the corpses of the two Taliban fighters. The Taliban men had been killed in a firefight 24 hours earlier, and in the 90 degree heat, their bodies had become an unbearable presence, soldiers who were present have told TIME. Nor was the U.S. Army unit about to leave — the hilltop commanded a strategic view of the village below where other Taliban were suspected to be hiding.

Earlier, Lt. Eric Nelson, the leader of B Company, I-508 platoon leader had sent word down to Gonbaz asking the villagers to pick up the bodies and bury them according to Muslim ritual. But the villagers refused — probably because the dead fighters weren’t locals but Pakistanis, surmised one U.S. army officer.

It was then that Lt. Nelson took the decision that could jeopardize his service career. “We decided to burn the bodies,” one soldier recounts, “because they were bloated and they stank.”

Well, if it didn’t matter to the Afghan people themselves, who gives a damn? They obviously didn’t care enough about the bodies to bury them according to Muslim tradition.

AP: Video spurs outrage in Afghanistan

We need to stir the fires of American outrage against an unecessary and trumped up investigation.

Who’s blogging on it:

Hyscience “And if you aren’t really sure whose side one of the two reporters is on(and there may be some serious questions about the other) - wait until you see the journalist’s photo from his own bio. Perhaps the report might be just a wee bit slanted, don’t you think?”

Little Green Footballs “This has got to be the most ridiculous trumped-up scandal yet”

Mudville Gazette Posted a link in Dawn Patrol (no commentary): Karzai Condemns Alleged Body Desecration

Jack Army “At the PAO’s request, along my own sense of Soldierly duty, I’m posting the CENTCOM news releases regarding this situation.”

Blackfive “Until we know the details, don’t jump to conclusions. And I’m sure a lot of you don’t have much sympathy for the Taliban here, but the military will be concerned about causing riots over this (like the Koran desecration myth that killed demonstrators that rioted in Pakistan).”

American Soldier “Terrorists don’t need to be treated like soldiers in an Army. They don’t fall under the Geneva Convention rules. “

GM’s Corner “Remember not too long ago when John Martinkus reported that US troops desicrated muslim bodies for Psy-Ops purposes? The stink that followed as all “reality based” lefties raised a ruckus about the no good rotten US forces? Turns out that it was a total fabrication, with proof and with cooberation from a lefty journalist no less. “

Riehl World View “Isn’t it interesting that this was obviously filmed some time ago but breaks right on the heels of the Iraq election? That’s a bit convenient for changing the news slant of the effort in Iraq. I hope combined intelligence operations have taken a good look at these guys. This strikes me as an incredibly well-timed bit of propoganda.”

Jason Coleman “The purpose of this post is to add to an explanation of what the REAL STORY is with regard to why two Taliban soldiers bodiers were burned in Afghanistan”

Update Jason Coleman audio clips and analysis

more from Jason Coleman “MR. MARTINKUS IS ENGAGING IN PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA AND HER ARMED FORCES!!!!

MR. MARTINKUS IS ENGAGING IN PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE DESIGNED TO ALSO INFURIATE THE MUSLIM WORLD AGAINST AMERICA!!!!”

Theodore’s World This is not the end I am sure, but IMO it never should have been a “situation” to deal with. Our troops are busting their butts in Afghanistan, Iraq and all over the world. They deserve better then to have to answer for every breath they take, every shot that is fired and every bomb that goes off.

Confederate Yankee “If the body was facing east or west, the shadows would be running parallel with the alignment of the bodies. As you can tell by looking at the feet of the bodies, they are perpendicular to the shadows.” The narrative does not hold.

Blogs For Bush “If you read on in the story, you’ll find that the troops weren’t ‘taunting’ mere “villagers” - their goal was to draw out Islamic militants (and note that they opted to use the words “militant” and “fighters” rather than “terrorist” - surprise, surprise).”

Homemade Sin “Can somebody remind me how many people were cremated by UBL and his Taliban butt buddies one nice September morning not too long ago? I’m not going to lose much sleep over this.”

Sister Toldjah “This is yet another classic example of how the media manipulates news to support their anti-war viewpoints. Our fighting forces are in Afghanistan to smoke out (no pun intended) terrorist thugs who want to kill us and turn our country into an Islamic state, yet we get this nonsense about alleged brutality/desecration done by our troops to them? This is such a horribly reported story that it’s pathetic.”

MyVast Right Wing Conspiracy “Don’t let the agenda-driven mainstream media distort reality (again) and fuel the anti-American hate machine - spread the word!”

Mark Kilmer “If these things did occur, which now seems likely, someone was doing something which they should not. They were disobeying orders.”

Reasoned Audacity “Apocalyptic, misleading, headlines”

Say Anything “The debatable point in all of this is not whether or not we should have burned the bodies (if the troops need to be rid of the rotting corpses of enemy combatants then burning seems like an efficient way to do that) but rather whether or not the psy-ops troops should have used the occasion to taunt the terrorists.

Some say this is not an effective tactic. They say, in fact, that it is largely counter-productive. I’m willing to listen to those arguments (though I largely disagree), but what is not acceptable is accusing our troops or war crimes or misdeeds.”

Political Pitbull “I am interested to see where this story will go in the US. One can only assume that it will be used by the MSM to depict the US military as inherently evil and reinforce the notion that the Bush administration has “a systematic policy of torture” when it comes to captured terrorists.”

Delftsman “An unfettered press is a necessity in a free society, but with that freedom comes the responsibility to “stick to the facts” and not use that power in furthuring a personal or corporate agenda. And it’s a citizens responsibility to hold the press to just reporting the news and not manipulating it, unfortunately, all too often, the citizens have become unquestioning and uncritical sponges of what they read and see.”

Flopping Aces “First, if this video existed I have a sneaky feeling it would be all over the news right now. Second, the Geneva Convention does not apply to unlawful combatants, such as the Taliban who do now wear a uniform. Third, burning dead bodies (cremation) is not unusual, it is a proven way of preventing disease. Fourth, why is it so hard for the media and the liberals to understand that PsychOp’s are a very useful tool?”

In the Bullpen “The act was not against Geneva Convention guidelines as has been suggested by several media outlets and the only thing I even have a problem with is burning the bodies because it shows the frustration of soldiers in that field of operations. Calling out to a nearby village in an effort to draw the enemy out is called psychological warfare, and I certainly do not have a problem with that.”

Dread Pundit Bluto “Coleman’s analysis points out not only gaping holes in Dupont’s story, but a revealing photo of Dupont (from Dupont’s website) showing the freelancer seemingly dressed as a Talibani for a Halloween party.”

ROFASix “Geez, here we go again. All sorts of concerns steeped in cultural relativism. Next thing you know we will have soldiers performing the washing ritual on the bad guys they kill. Have we lost our minds?”

Publius Pundit “Some jackass “journalists” desecrated their supposed profession”

______________________________________

I’m kinda suprised certain blogs haven’t picked it up yet: Malkin, FR, Dr. Sanity, Cao, Instapundit, Indepundit, or the AntiIdiotarian Rottweiler, California Conservative, OTB, Wizbang, The Political Teen, 2 Babes and A Brain, MacStansbury, Publius Rendevous, and so on. If anyone finds any links to the story as more bloggers pick it up please let me know in comments so that I can include them here.
 

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