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Stephen Dupont Interview
Stephen Dupont Interview
Startling scenes of what can be done in the name of a just war, by Dateline's John Martinkus and freelance photojournalist Stephen Dupont. And earlier this evening Stephen and George Negus looked at that Taliban burning footage and then talked about it here in the studio.
GEORGE NEGUS: Steve, even though you were embedded with the Americans, I have to say I was surprised that you were even able to film that stuff. Why do you think they had no problem with you doing it?
STEPHEN DUPONT, PHOTOJOURNALIST: Well, I believe that they had a certain amount of trust and I think, when you're embedded with the Americans, they tend to sort of let you have free reign. Once you're in there - t it's very difficult to get in there.
GEORGE NEGUS: No restrictions?
STEPHEN DUPONT: None that I saw on my embed. I just think that they're - you know, they've invited you in, they've invited me in so they're showing me pretty much what's going on.
GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think they understood the ramifications of what they're doing? The burning of the bodies, pointing towards Mecca and going to the trouble of reading to you in English the deliberately provocative stuff that they were shouting across the valley to the Taliban?
STEPHEN DUPONT: Look, I think the airborne unit that were responsible with the burning of the two Taliban soldiers weren't really thinking in that way. I think the psychological operations unit, who were responsible for the broadcast along with some other broadcasts to the Taliban, they're quite well aware of it. They're older guys. That's their job. They're PsyOps. They use it as a weapon. And the Americans are so frustrated. They're frustrated because they can't find the enemy. They're chasing shadows all the time.
GEORGE NEGUS: The guys burning the bodies probably did they think were doing it for reasons of hygiene that were mentioned in the story?
STEPHEN DUPONT: I believe that. That was the feeling I got as I climbed up the hill. As I got to the crest of the hill, they started burning the bodies. My initial reaction was, "My God, I've got to film this. This is really important stuff. It's my responsibility as a journalist to -
GEORGE NEGUS: The PsyOps had a different purpose?
STEPHEN DUPONT: I believe so. Niece guys - they said to me, "We've been told to burn the bodies, the bodies are have been here for 24 hours and they're starting to stink so, for hygiene purposes, this is what we've got to do."
Later on, when I was down with the PsyOps operations people, they used that as a psychological warfare I guess you'd call it. They used the fact that the Taliban were burned facing west -
GEORGE NEGUS: They were deliberately setting out to humiliate the Taliban?
STEPHEN DUPONT: They deliberately wanted to incite that much anger from the Taliban so the Taliban could attack them.
GEORGE NEGUS: Smoke them out.
STEPHEN DUPONT: Smoke them out. They want the Taliban to fight them because they can't find them otherwise. It's a really crazy situation. And, you know, the fact that they're announcing these kind of, you know, sort of incredible statements, I think, says a lot about the war that's going on there. I mean, they really want to be attacked. That's the only way they can find them.
GEORGE NEGUS: They don't know where the enemy is, who the enemy is. It's like fighting a ghost.
STEPHEN DUPONT: Absolutely. We're talking about a place that really does look like the moon, look like some planet in outer space.
GEORGE NEGUS: In the context of things like Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, Bagram and Fallujah, do you think there will be ramifications when this stuff gets to the world? The last time somebody desecrated the Koran in Guantanamo Bay they went off their faces in Afghanistan.
STEPHEN DUPONT: I think it's highly possible. I can't say for sure. I think it's strong enough, certainly, to send a clear message to Muslims around the world that this is, this is not good. This is a clear breach of Islam. And, you know, it's just another thing that's going to really anger the Islamic population.
GEORGE NEGUS: That being the case, do you think that the psychological war is working?
STEPHEN DUPONT: Look, I think it's having some success. I do believe - I think it's very, very slow. I think there is a certain amount of success because they are engaging with the enemy, as in the Taliban. The Americans are using this, you know, psychological warfare to announce - to make announcements to get the enemy to fight them. It is working on that level. And they are being attacked and so they are responding and they are taking prisoners of war and so forth.
So, in the eyes of the Americans and the coalition, there is a sense that things are working, but it's very, very slow.
GEORGE NEGUS: Is it the most amazing thing you've photographed? Close?
STEPHEN DUPONT: It's close. And, at the time, George, I really didn't think of it that way. When I was filming it, I think I was just on such a mission to capture these images and it was so extraordinary - it's more when I came home and I started looking at the video footage and the photographs that I took that, you know, it started to come around to thinking, "My God, these are really poignant historical images."
GEORGE NEGUS: The Australians are in the same area. Any contact whatsoever with them?
STEPHEN DUPONT: They're keeping a very low profile. I saw some at Kandahar air base and Bagram air base and I instigated some conversation that really kind of went nowhere.
GEORGE NEGUS: By stark contrast, the Americans are totally open about what they're doing, even something like what we've just seen.
STEPHEN DUPONT: Absolutely, absolutely open. I think I mentioned before once your embedded with them, you can pretty well see what they're doing. If there was anything the Americans didn't want me to see, I wouldn't have seen it, that's what I believe. I really believe that the fact that they were burning these bodies, it didn't mean much to them. I think maybe that's common. They make these decisions on the spot.
GEORGE NEGUS: Steve, good talking to you.
STEPHEN DUPONT: Thanks, George.
GEORGE NEGUS: Sorry we're talking about something as horrific as this.
STEPHEN DUPONT: Yeah, cheers.
manu1959 said:they wouldn't let me sign up...damn banned before i even started
Adam's Apple said:Has anyone ever heard a liberal outcry when terrorists' car bombs incinerate coalition troups alive on a daily basis? Has anyone ever read a news report decrying the desecration of those bodies? At least the American soldiers had a good reason to burn the dead bodies of the Taliban. And don't give me that old liberal standby that better behavior is expected of Americans. Of course, it is when they're not at war. But the fact is they are at war, and other behavior is required to survive. It's exactly as USMCDevilDog said in his quote: "War isn't some game, it's not fair, it isn't something where you choose which weapons you're gonna use, shake hands and press play."
USViking said:I got an official warning on another board for suggesting
we should have thrown a few slices of bacon on the fire,
and maybe saved a few more bodies, and thrown a whole hog carcass
on the next, larger fire.
Hurt the hell out of my feelings.
Troops Who Burned Taliban Face Discipline
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 49 minutes ago
Four U.S. soldiers face disciplinary action for burning the bodies of two Taliban rebels a videotaped incident that sparked outrage in Afghanistan but they will not be prosecuted because their actions were motivated by hygienic concerns, the military said Saturday.
TV footage recorded Oct. 1 in a violent part of southern Afghanistan showed American soldiers setting fire to the bodies and then boasting about the act on loudspeakers to taunt insurgents suspected to be hiding in a nearby village.
Islam bans cremation, and the video images were compared to photographs of U.S. troops abusing prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. Afghanistan's government condemned the desecration. Muslim clerics warned of a violent anti-American backlash, though there have been no protests so far.
American commanders immediately launched an inquiry and vowed that anyone found guilty would be severely punished, fearing the incident could undermine public support for the war against a stubborn insurgency four years after U.S.-led forces ousted the Taliban.
The U.S.-led coalition's operational commander, Maj. Gen. Jason Kamiya, said two junior officers who ordered the bodies burned would be reprimanded for showing a lack of cultural and religious understanding, but that the men had been unaware at the time of doing anything wrong.
Kamiya also said two noncommissioned officers would be reprimanded for using the burning of the bodies to taunt the rebels. The two men also would face nonjudicial punishments, which could include a loss of pay or demotion in rank.
"Our investigation found there was no intent to desecrate the remains but only to dispose of them for hygienic reasons," Kamiya said. He added that the broadcasts about the burned remains, while "designed to incite fleeing Taliban to fight," violated military policy.
Kandahar Gov. Asadullah Khalid, who attended the military's news conference in the former Taliban stronghold of Kandahar, said, "We have confidence in this investigation."
But Islamic clerics criticized the findings of the probe.
"These soldiers should be severely punished," said Khair Mohammed, a senior cleric in Kandahar. "Foreign soldiers in Afghanistan must respect our religion. If they continue to do things like this, every Muslim will be against them."
A purported Taliban commander in Shah Wali Kot district, where the bodies were burned, said he was "outraged the Americans burned the bodies of our dead.
"The Americans always claimed to respect human rights, our culture and religion, but now the whole world knows that these are all lies," he told The Associated Press by satellite phone from an undisclosed location.
The footage shows about five soldiers in light-colored military fatigues, which did not have any distinguishing marks, standing near a bonfire in which two bodies were laid side by side.
Kamiya said the temperature at the time was 90 degrees, and the bodies had lain exposed on the ground for 24 hours and were rapidly decomposing.
"This posed an increasing health concern for our soldiers," Kamiya said. "The criminal investigation proved there was no violation of the rules of war."
The Geneva Convention forbids the burning of combatants except for hygienic purposes.
The bodies were found atop a hill after a fire fight, and Kamiya said soldiers, intending to stay on the hill for two or three days for strategic reasons, believed other Taliban had fled into the village below.
The cameraman, freelance journalist Stephen Dupont, said he shot the footage while embedded with the Army's 173rd Airborne Brigade.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai ordered his own inquiry into the videotape. That probe has also been completed, but officials say it is not clear when its findings will be released.
Though Afghan media have reported the alleged desecration, the videotape has not been broadcast in the country, which some observers believe is the main reason there have been no demonstrations.
The last violent anti-American protests in Afghanistan were in May over a report by Newsweek later retracted that U.S. soldiers at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility abused Islam's holy book, the Quran.
Adam's Apple said:Has anyone ever heard a liberal outcry when terrorists' car bombs incinerate coalition troups alive on a daily basis? Has anyone ever read a news report decrying the desecration of those bodies? At least the American soldiers had a good reason to burn the dead bodies of the Taliban. And don't give me that old liberal standby that better behavior is expected of Americans. Of course, it is when they're not at war. But the fact is they are at war, and other behavior is required to survive. It's exactly as USMCDevilDog said in his quote: "War isn't some game, it's not fair, it isn't something where you choose which weapons you're gonna use, shake hands and press play."
