US Revolution - Was it a good thing?

[Toro]

It would have been better if we'd stayed part of the British Empire.

Isn't that right, Swagger?

 

[Swagger]

Goes without saying.

 

[Bonzi]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Of course, this was in the 1760's before wars started.... and then, we drove out the folks that lived here all along....

Should we even be here?

Sorry Bonzi- that isn't accurate.

Some of the immigrants who came to the future United States were Puritans- essentially the Plymouth colony. The rest weren't.

Pennsylvania was mainly settled originally by Quakers- another persecuted religious minority.
New York was settled originally by the Dutch and then future English immigrants were not any specific religious minority.

The Southern colonies were settled largely by Church of England followers- which was the official religion of England for most of the colonial years.

And the relationship with the native dwellers is just as complicated. At times we worked with them- but ultimately we (my ancestors along with others) always broke our agreements the natives and did indeed push them out- the survivors.

The Revolution itself had not much to do with that- if you question is whether the Revolution was a good thing- yes it was ultimately.

Should we be here? Too late for those regrets- we are. I am proud of my settler ancestors(Puritans), they were brave, hard working and resolute. But their actions also destroyed native populations- I am not proud of that- but not responsible either.

Yeah, I know...duh

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Ummm, no. Puritans came here in the 17th Century for that purpose, but had nearly vanished by the mid-18th Century, quite a bit before the talk of revolution arose. We broke because we were treated as a lowly taxable colony by George III, and were fed up with it.

Should we even be here?

I should be. Dunno 'bout you.

I'm certainly very happy to be reaping the benefits, however, not happy about pushing out American Indians in the process....

That is the guilt that the liberals have been forcing upon you. When one tribe would prey upon the other tribe, men would die, and the women and children would be turned into slaves. But it took the white people to bring peace to the tribes,

And by 'peace' you mean killing most of the native Americans- and driving the remainder into ever shrinking reservations that were in the last desirable places in the United States- and if by chance gold or oil were discovered there- driving the natives out of those places too.

Imagine if a nation were to conquer the United States today, killing 90% of the population- but then bragged how they ended the oppioid epidemic that was killing so many Americans.

That is what you are doing.

You do realize that it was the Manifest Destiny(Andrew Jackson(D)) that started the war on Indians and having them put on those ever shrinking reservations? Why is it the Democrats that always fuck it up for people not of the white color?

 

[Syriusly]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Ummm, no. Puritans came here in the 17th Century for that purpose, but had nearly vanished by the mid-18th Century, quite a bit before the talk of revolution arose. We broke because we were treated as a lowly taxable colony by George III, and were fed up with it.

Should we even be here?

I should be. Dunno 'bout you.

I'm certainly very happy to be reaping the benefits, however, not happy about pushing out American Indians in the process....

That is the guilt that the liberals have been forcing upon you. When one tribe would prey upon the other tribe, men would die, and the women and children would be turned into slaves. But it took the white people to bring peace to the tribes,

And by 'peace' you mean killing most of the native Americans- and driving the remainder into ever shrinking reservations that were in the last desirable places in the United States- and if by chance gold or oil were discovered there- driving the natives out of those places too.

Imagine if a nation were to conquer the United States today, killing 90% of the population- but then bragged how they ended the oppioid epidemic that was killing so many Americans.

That is what you are doing.

You do realize that it was the Manifest Destiny(Andrew Jackson(D)) that started the war on Indians and having them put on those ever shrinking reservations? Why is it the Democrats that always fuck it up for people not of the white color?

LOL- oh why do the political partisans always want to believe this started with Andrew Jackson?

Long before Andrew Jackson our early settlers were screwing over the natives here. Back then the wilderness was the other side of the Apalachians.

Andrew Jackson was an asshole in a long tradition of assholes screwing over native Americans- and it didn't stop with Jackson- or with LIncoln- though most of it was finished up by Grant.

Of course our last real 'Manifest Destiny" President was Teddy Roosevelt- you know how those Republicans always fuck it up for people who aren't white......(and yes that was sarcasm to our White supremacist/partisan fan boys)

 

[Unkotare]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans......

???????????????????

Say wha now?

 

[Bonzi]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans......

???????????????????

Say wha now?

Yeah, I know, I've already been called out on it.
Apparently I'm a history school flunkie!

 

[Bonzi]

Okay so here is something taken from a website.

Thoughts?

Christopher Columbus' conquest of the New World in 1492; over the following century, European explorers wiped out entire Native American tribes and brought tremendous wealth back to their own countries. English settlers came to North America in the early 1600s, and soon afterwards, they were involved in a series of wars with the Native American tribes, during which they used terrorist tactics to assert their domination

 

[Bonzi]

this is a strange website! I will add more and, unless you are willing to look it up, will reveal the source in a bit....

 

[Moonglow]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Of course, this was in the 1760's before wars started.... and then, we drove out the folks that lived here all along....

Should we even be here?

Who in the hell learned you history?
The Puritans were the leaders of Englands short lived era of being republic after the execution of the King.....They were hardasses and people didn't like them....So it really wasn't the religious aspect of the unpopularity but their tyrannical style of govt....

 

[Moonglow]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Ummm, no. Puritans came here in the 17th Century for that purpose, but had nearly vanished by the mid-18th Century, quite a bit before the talk of revolution arose. We broke because we were treated as a lowly taxable colony by George III, and were fed up with it.

Should we even be here?

I should be. Dunno 'bout you.

I'm certainly very happy to be reaping the benefits, however, not happy about pushing out American Indians in the process....

That is the guilt that the liberals have been forcing upon you. When one tribe would prey upon the other tribe, men would die, and the women and children would be turned into slaves. But it took the white people to bring peace to the tribes,

And by 'peace' you mean killing most of the native Americans- and driving the remainder into ever shrinking reservations that were in the last desirable places in the United States- and if by chance gold or oil were discovered there- driving the natives out of those places too.

Imagine if a nation were to conquer the United States today, killing 90% of the population- but then bragged how they ended the oppioid epidemic that was killing so many Americans.

That is what you are doing.

You do realize that it was the Manifest Destiny(Andrew Jackson(D)) that started the war on Indians and having them put on those ever shrinking reservations? Why is it the Democrats that always fuck it up for people not of the white color?

The war with the natives began way before Jackson was an urge in his Daddy's groin...

 

[Unkotare]

.....
You do realize that it was the Manifest Destiny(Andrew Jackson(D)) that started the war on Indians and having them put on those ever shrinking reservations? .....

Um, no. Native Americans were getting screwed long before Jackson, and Manifest Destiny is associated with President Polk, not Old Hickory.

 

[Syriusly]

Okay so here is something taken from a website.

Thoughts?

Christopher Columbus' conquest of the New World in 1492; over the following century, European explorers wiped out entire Native American tribes and brought tremendous wealth back to their own countries. English settlers came to North America in the early 1600s, and soon afterwards, they were involved in a series of wars with the Native American tribes, during which they used terrorist tactics to assert their domination

God I hate oversimplifications.

Columbus didn't conquer the New World- but he did open the doors.

European 'explorers' did in effect wipe out entire tribes- in most cases inadvertently- through introduced diseases. But many of those same explorers were conquistadors and first rate pricks who happily stole, raped and rampaged across Mexico and South America- and the only reason they wouldn't have tried to exterminate many of those tribes is because they expected them to be slaves.

English settlers did come to the United States- and the first two colonies that survived- did so only with the assistance of Native Americans. Both Plymouth and Jamestown would have started without the Indians.

There were many examples of English(not limited to English- also Swedes and Dutch, not even counting the French) working with Natives- but almost always this broke down into wars/battles- and both sides were at fault- but remember- the Europeans were encroaching on native land- and ultimately that was always the cause for the 'wars'. (There is a whole other issue regarding the arms race that the Europeans started with steel weapons and rifles that they would supply).

Yes- Europeans did use what we would consider 'terrorist tactics'- but so did the Native Americans. Scalping was started by Europeans and picked up by the natives. Both sides burned down villages and towns.

Some good books to read(just the first two to come to mind):
Guns, Germs and Steel
Don't Know Much About History

 

[Darkwind]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Of course, this was in the 1760's before wars started.... and then, we drove out the folks that lived here all along....

Should we even be here?

Not really willing to go to deep into it tonight, but I think you have your time references mixed up.

Consider this. Benjamin Franklin was in his 70s when the revolution started. He was the son of Puritans, who for the most part, were either absent from the scene or in serious decline by the time the colonies broke from England.

 

[Darkwind]

Oh, and one last thing before I watch a movie.

The Founding Fathers gave us the exact reasons they split from England. 27 of them in fact and they can be found in the Declaration of Indpendence.

The Grievances:
The exact text of the Declaration is in the first bullet. The sub-bullets provide a simple, modern language explanation of what was being said as well as the Proper Role of Government, or failure thereof that each Grievance was highlighting.

• “He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.”
  • He continuously vetoed laws that the colonies attempted to put in place that they believed were needed.
  • Just Governments are derived from the consent of the governed – there was no consent to be ruled by the King
• “He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.”
  • Certain kinds of laws passed by the Colonial assemblies were required to be submitted to the king for approval (instead of the being approved by the Colonial (British) Governors). Sometimes they would be neglected for years.
  • Just Governments are derived from the consent of the governed – there was no consent to be ruled by the King
• “He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.”
  • As populations grew larger and new, large, communities formed; the king refused to allow them equal representation in government (government must be by the consent of the governed).
  • Just Governments are derived from the consent of the governed – there was no consent to be ruled by the King
  • Equal Representation in creating the laws is the Right of the People
• “He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.”
  • Shenanigans were created by the Colonial Governors that were effectively interfering with the public business and prevented them from access to information necessary to conduct it.
  • The consent of the People was for the assemblies to have proper access to information
• “He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.”
  • If a Colonial Assembly did or issued something the king did not like (such as charges against him), he ordered the body dissolved and refused to acquiesce to charges or demands.
  • Proper Checks and Balances in Government are necessary
• “He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.”
  • After dissolving their governments, he refused to allow new ones to be elected
  • The Right of Representation arises from Equal Liberty with all other humans, no one has the Right to rule another without that other’s consent
• “He has endeavored to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.”
  • The king refused Assent to Laws regarding immigration. He hindered immigration from England and refused to cooperate in furthering the growth of the Colonies.
  • The unalienable Right to Liberty includes the Liberty to make use of Property to provide for oneself and ones family.
  • Government should make unused land available to the people by homestead or auction
• “He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.”
  • The king would not allow courts of justice to be established; he constantly interfered and would not allow the Colonies to judge their own criminals or redress upon one another.
  • Just Government derives from the consent of the governed and that government exists to secure rights
  • Without a judiciary to punish criminials and to seek redress from an injurer, Life, Liberty and Property are insecure
• “He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.”
  • Judges served, and were paid, at the discretion of the king – making impartiality impossible.
  • Just Government must have a Separation of Powers with Checks and Balances
• “He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.”
  • The king created several new government officials including: customs officials, new offices to collect tax and tax collectors and courts of admiralty that were not approved by colonial legislatures and were therefore illegitimate.
  • Just Government must have a Separation of Powers – the Legislature must approve Executive Appointments or they are illegitimate
• “He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.”
  • Throughout England and America, standing armies had long been regarded a danger which required close supervision. Without the consent of the Colonists, the king sent armies to keep order in the colonies, even though there was no war.
  • Government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed; the Legislature, being the Representatives of the People must decide issues like this
• “He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.”
  • Soldiers were not subject to civil laws. The military could make up and try their own laws.
  • To ensure the security of Rights and Liberties, all citizens must be subject to the Judiciary
• “He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their acts of pretended legislation:”
  • The colonies tentatively accepted the king as their Chief Executive, but they did not recognize parliament or any authority of parliament to legislate over the colonies. In violation of this, the king had assented to multiple laws created by parliament which affected the Colonists – which they deemed illegal.
  • A Just Government has a Separation of Powers and Checks and Balances
  • All of the Intolerable Acts where a violation of Governance by the consent of the People
  • These came to be called “The Intolerable Acts”: The Boston Port Act (closed the port), The Administration of Justice Act (disallowed the Colonists of trying any British Officials or soldiers) The Massachusetts Government Act (The MA council would be appointed by the king instead of elected), The Quartering Act (forced colonists to house and feed British soldiers) and The Quebec Act (expanded Quebec deeply south into IL, MI, MN, removed Quebec’s representative government and taxed Catholics with the revenue going to the church):
  • “Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us”
    • Forced Colonists to house and pay for British troops
  • “For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit”
    • Immunized soldiers from Colonial Law
  • “For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world”
    • Closing the Boston Port
  • “For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent”
    • Taxing in many Acts and methods that were implemented without representation of the colonists
  • “For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury”
    • In many cases there were no trials at all; the king decided they were guilty and punished them
  • “For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences”
    • People accused of crimes could be taken far way to be “tried” even when the case was very weak.
  • “For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies”
    • The Quebec Act extended Canada’s territory into land claimed by the Colonists
  • “For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments”
  • “For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.”
    • The king abolished laws, suspended legislatures and declared himself to legislate for them
• “He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us”
  • Feb, 1776, parliament declared the colonies out of the king’s protection (a duty of the sovereign) because of the “intolerable degree of unruliness”.
  • The purpose of Government is to protect Life, Liberty and Happiness
• “He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people”
  • The king had essentially declared war on the colonists by burning towns. The British considered the colonists in open rebellion against their lawful rulers. However, the Colonist’s saw their lawful rulers being the legislatures and such that the king had shut down.
  • The purpose of Government is to protect Life, Liberty and Happiness
• “He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.”
  • The king had hired foreign troops to come in and fight against the colonists
  • The purpose of Government is to protect Life, Liberty and Happiness
• “He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.”
  • Colonists were forced to serve in the military and to fight against their own people
  • The purpose of Government is to protect Life, Liberty and Happiness
• “He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.”
  • The king provoked the indians to attack the colonists
  • The purpose of Government is to protect Life, Liberty and Happiness

taken from The Declaration of Independence – The Grievances

 

[Bonzi]

Let's think about the beginning of the United States.....

We broke from England due to religious persecution. These were primarily Puritans, who, believed in Predestination and ironically, came to escape the Catholic church (the largest denomination).

Of course, this was in the 1760's before wars started.... and then, we drove out the folks that lived here all along....

Should we even be here?

Who in the hell learned you history?
The Puritans were the leaders of Englands short lived era of being republic after the execution of the King.....They were hardasses and people didn't like them....So it really wasn't the religious aspect of the unpopularity but their tyrannical style of govt....

I didn't pay much attention in school. I was only 100 years off or so

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Okay so here is something taken from a website.

Thoughts?

Christopher Columbus' conquest of the New World in 1492; over the following century, European explorers wiped out entire Native American tribes and brought tremendous wealth back to their own countries. English settlers came to North America in the early 1600s, and soon afterwards, they were involved in a series of wars with the Native American tribes, during which they used terrorist tactics to assert their domination

Richkids Have No Right to Exist

Only spoiled degenerate scumbags care about inferior races. And yet this tiny clique has the power to change both the laws and our attitude towards savages. The Limousine Liberals are being consistent when they order us to protect wild animals, too.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Okay so here is something taken from a website.

Thoughts?

Christopher Columbus' conquest of the New World in 1492; over the following century, European explorers wiped out entire Native American tribes and brought tremendous wealth back to their own countries. English settlers came to North America in the early 1600s, and soon afterwards, they were involved in a series of wars with the Native American tribes, during which they used terrorist tactics to assert their domination

Remove the Source of These Symptoms of Decadence

This arrogant clique of New Age educated idiots also tries to change intelligent grammar. Columbus' should be Columbus's. Someone who denies that his mind is trapped by these snakes gives himself away when he parrots this dysfunctional form.

 

[Syriusly]

Okay so here is something taken from a website.

Thoughts?

Christopher Columbus' conquest of the New World in 1492; over the following century, European explorers wiped out entire Native American tribes and brought tremendous wealth back to their own countries. English settlers came to North America in the early 1600s, and soon afterwards, they were involved in a series of wars with the Native American tribes, during which they used terrorist tactics to assert their domination

Richkids Have No Right to Exist

Only spoiled degenerate scumbags care about inferior races. And yet this tiny clique has the power to change both the laws and our attitude towards savages. The Limousine Liberals are being consistent when they order us to protect wild animals, too.

Troll patrol.

 

[whitehall]

The Founding Fathers risked their lives and fortunes to create a document that changed the world. Maybe today's budding anarchists who enjoy the benefits and liberty of the greatest Country in the world were asleep during American history classes or maybe they don't even teach the concepts of "duty,honor,Country in elementary schools but gradually during the 19th century the old monarchies fell away and today the standard of civilization on the globe is based on the United States Constitution. Isn't that something to celebrate about rather than condemn?