US debt ?

[TakeAStepBack]

First off, the treasury isn't responsible for controlling the amount of money; the Federal Reserve is. The treasury issues debt...

Authority and responsibility for money and debt is with congress ( from The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net )--

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts...

To borrow money on the credit of the United States...

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof...

--and according to The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net the President with his cabinet (including the Treasury) are responsible for carrying out the will of Congress. What happened is that (from FRB: What is the difference between monetary policy and fiscal policy, and how are they related? )--

Congress established maximum employment and price stability as the macroeconomic objectives for the Federal Reserve; they are sometimes referred to as the Federal Reserve's dual mandate. Apart from these overarching objectives, the Congress determined that operational conduct of monetary policy should be free from political influence. As a result, the Federal Reserve is an independent agency of the federal government. Fiscal policy is a broad term used to refer to the tax and spending policies of the federal government. Fiscal policy decisions are determined by the Congress and the Administration; the Federal Reserve plays no role in determining fiscal policy.

Except for that 16 trillion in secret loans that we found out about from the first audit in the history of the fed.

 

[DSGE]

...the scale is adjusted to make the plot appear flat.

It's a linear scale. ...

Huh, you actually don't know.

OK, here're your same numbers plotted again but this time with your linear scales adjusted to make the US gold prices appear more volatile...

It's the numbers that matter, not how they're made to look on a graph. Bottom line here is that before '33 the dollars/gold price was more stable with consumption expenditures volatile, and for the past few decades it's been the other way around.

Except it wasn't just zoomed out massively. The Y-axis was linear starting at 0 and ending at the maximum data value + one interval. It wasn't misleadingly reported. It was reported exactly the way it should be.

But since you seem to think there's some foul play going on, yes it's the numbers that matter. So why don't you answer the question I asked you - "what price do you think the Fed is pegging PCE at?" - and we'll calculate some standard deviations.

 

[DSGE]

First off, the treasury isn't responsible for controlling the amount of money; the Federal Reserve is. The treasury issues debt...

Authority and responsibility for money and debt is with congress ( from The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net )--

--and according to The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net the President with his cabinet (including the Treasury) are responsible for carrying out the will of Congress. What happened is that (from FRB: What is the difference between monetary policy and fiscal policy, and how are they related? )--

Congress established maximum employment and price stability as the macroeconomic objectives for the Federal Reserve; they are sometimes referred to as the Federal Reserve's dual mandate. Apart from these overarching objectives, the Congress determined that operational conduct of monetary policy should be free from political influence. As a result, the Federal Reserve is an independent agency of the federal government. Fiscal policy is a broad term used to refer to the tax and spending policies of the federal government. Fiscal policy decisions are determined by the Congress and the Administration; the Federal Reserve plays no role in determining fiscal policy.

Except for that 16 trillion in secret loans that we found out about from the first audit in the history of the fed.

What do you mean "except for"? They were originally established in 1913 to act as lender of last resort. Loaning from the discount window to provide backstop liquidity during times of financial stress is their job.

 

[DSGE]

At its most basic level we are no better then the barter system....

No. Not at all. The presence of money in the economy allows for extreme specialisation and lowers transaction costs significantly. Imagine an economics lecturer. Say they need their car fixed. In a barter economy, the lecturer has to search for a mechanic who is willing to exchange their services for an economics lecture. Now students value economics lectures very much, but the mechanic doesn't really value it at all. So either the lecturer will have to find a mechanic who is also a student, or they'll have to organise crazy multiple-way trades like "you fix my car, that machinist will give you some car parts, the baker will give the machinist some bread and I'll give the baker's child (who is a student) an economics lecture".

Craziness. Introduce money as a medium of exchange. Any student who wants an economics lecture will take the lectures and give the lecturer money for it. The lecturer can take the money and trade it for car repair. Or anything else. The mechanic can take the money and trade it for car parts.

Money allows all sorts of trades to take place that otherwise wouldn't happen if there were a barter economy, and allows people to become highly specialised at a particular job.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Authority and responsibility for money and debt is with congress ( from The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net )--

--and according to The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net the President with his cabinet (including the Treasury) are responsible for carrying out the will of Congress. What happened is that (from FRB: What is the difference between monetary policy and fiscal policy, and how are they related? )--

Except for that 16 trillion in secret loans that we found out about from the first audit in the history of the fed.

What do you mean "except for"? They were originally established in 1913 to act as lender of last resort. Loaning from the discount window to provide backstop liquidity during times of financial stress is their job.

Was it congressional authorized? No.

The Fed works in secret and must. Which is why no audits allowed. If you're this lost on the scheme. READ some history. They work on their own in their interest. We're just the pawns that own the slavery.

 

[DSGE]

Except for that 16 trillion in secret loans that we found out about from the first audit in the history of the fed.

What do you mean "except for"? They were originally established in 1913 to act as lender of last resort. Loaning from the discount window to provide backstop liquidity during times of financial stress is their job.

Was it congressional authorized? No.

The Fed works in secret and must. Which is why no audits allowed. If you're this lost on the scheme. READ some history. They work on their own in their interest. We're just the pawns that own the slavery.

Yes it was authorized by congress. In the Federal Reserve Act!

The Fed is extremely open, publishes their balance sheet and gets audited regularly by GAO. They keep the recipient of discount loans a secret because if other banks know that that bank is having liquidity problems, they'll stop lending to them and make the liquidity crisis worse. The quantity of loans on the Fed's balance sheet is public knowledge.

Also, what do you think the problem is? These are collateralized loans. They get repaid with interest.

 

[expat_panama]

...according to The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net the President with his cabinet (including the Treasury) are responsible for carrying out the will of Congress. What happened is that (from FRB: What is the difference between monetary policy and fiscal policy, and how are they related? )--

...the Federal Reserve is an independent agency of the federal government. Fiscal policy is a broad term used to refer to the tax and spending policies of the federal government. Fiscal policy decisions are determined by the Congress and the Administration; the Federal Reserve plays no role in determining fiscal policy.

Except for that 16 trillion in secret loans that we found out about from the first audit in the history of the fed.

First, auditing is a fiscal activity and if it's not done right then it's the congress that screwed up not the Fed. Next maybe we'll be hearing some clown using appropriation screw-ups to 'prove' Marines lack courage.

Second, the Fed's been audited since it was created in 1913; here's a link to all the latest Fed bank statements and here's a link to past GAO reports.

Finally, the reason that goofy "16 trillion in secret loans" bit does not have its own GAO link is because it's something only understood with--

 

[editec]

What do you mean "except for"? They were originally established in 1913 to act as lender of last resort. Loaning from the discount window to provide backstop liquidity during times of financial stress is their job.

Was it congressional authorized? No.

The Fed works in secret and must. Which is why no audits allowed. If you're this lost on the scheme. READ some history. They work on their own in their interest. We're just the pawns that own the slavery.

Yes it was authorized by congress. In the Federal Reserve Act!

The Fed is extremely open, publishes their balance sheet and gets audited regularly by GAO. They keep the recipient of discount loans a secret because if other banks know that that bank is having liquidity problems, they'll stop lending to them and make the liquidity crisis worse. The quantity of loans on the Fed's balance sheet is public knowledge.

Also, what do you think the problem is? These are collateralized loans. They get repaid with interest.

Do you know what the rate they're paying at the FED window

Look it up. then compare it to the rate one gets on a T bill.

I promise you you'd dearly LOVE to borrow at the FED window rate and then lend that same money BACK to the federal government (buying T bills) at the rate the T bills, pay.

THIS is a perfect example of the the wefare for the INSIDERS that the lefties bitch about, sport.

So far the highest estimate is that the FED Reserve has lent $26 Trillion to the banksters rolling over the debt and repayments over and over and over again.

That, my friend, is welfare for the BANKSTERS

 

[DSGE]

Was it congressional authorized? No.

The Fed works in secret and must. Which is why no audits allowed. If you're this lost on the scheme. READ some history. They work on their own in their interest. We're just the pawns that own the slavery.

Yes it was authorized by congress. In the Federal Reserve Act!

The Fed is extremely open, publishes their balance sheet and gets audited regularly by GAO. They keep the recipient of discount loans a secret because if other banks know that that bank is having liquidity problems, they'll stop lending to them and make the liquidity crisis worse. The quantity of loans on the Fed's balance sheet is public knowledge.

Also, what do you think the problem is? These are collateralized loans. They get repaid with interest.

Do you know what the rate they're paying at the FED window

Look it up. then compare it to the rate one gets on a T bill.

I promise you you'd dearly LOVE to borrow at the FED window rate and then lend that same money BACK to the federal government (buying T bills) at the rate the T bills, pay.

THIS is a perfect example of the the wefare for the INSIDERS that the lefties bitch about, sport.

So far the highest estimate is that the FED Reserve has lent $26 Trillion to the banksters rolling over the debt and repayments over and over and over again.

That, my friend, is welfare for the BANKSTERS

The Federal Reserve Bank Discount Window & Payment System Risk Website

Discount rate is 0.75% and the secondary credit rate is 1.25%. These are very short term loans, usually overnight: The Federal Reserve Bank Discount Window & Payment System Risk Website

The T-bill rates: Daily Treasury Yield Curve Rates

So for the kind of arbitrage, or "welfare", you're suggesting to happen, the minimum term for the loan needs to be 5 years for primary credit and 7 years for secondary credit.

 

[editec]

Yes it was authorized by congress. In the Federal Reserve Act!

The Fed is extremely open, publishes their balance sheet and gets audited regularly by GAO. They keep the recipient of discount loans a secret because if other banks know that that bank is having liquidity problems, they'll stop lending to them and make the liquidity crisis worse. The quantity of loans on the Fed's balance sheet is public knowledge.

Also, what do you think the problem is? These are collateralized loans. They get repaid with interest.

Do you know what the rate they're paying at the FED window

Look it up. then compare it to the rate one gets on a T bill.

I promise you you'd dearly LOVE to borrow at the FED window rate and then lend that same money BACK to the federal government (buying T bills) at the rate the T bills, pay.

THIS is a perfect example of the the wefare for the INSIDERS that the lefties bitch about, sport.

So far the highest estimate is that the FED Reserve has lent $26 Trillion to the banksters rolling over the debt and repayments over and over and over again.

That, my friend, is welfare for the BANKSTERS

The Federal Reserve Bank Discount Window & Payment System Risk Website

Discount rate is 0.75% and the secondary credit rate is 1.25%. These are very short term loans, usually overnight: The Federal Reserve Bank Discount Window & Payment System Risk Website

The T-bill rates: Daily Treasury Yield Curve Rates

So for the kind of arbitrage, or "welfare", you're suggesting to happen, the minimum term for the loan needs to be 5 years for primary credit and 7 years for secondary credit.

0.75%....You're right... or maybe we're both wrong I just checked the latest rate. which states it as 0.75%

OTOH here the rate is 0.7%

You're wrong about the length of time, permitted though.

That's been changing since the meltdown.

I'm informed that NOW the time period for discount window loans can be as high as two years.

E​

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XTENDED CREDIT​

The extended credit program is designed to address
the needs of institutions facing longer-term (​

​

​

​

‘‘extended’’)
liquidity pressures in exceptional circumstances.
For the past several years, the discount rate
charged on extended credit has been somewhat
above market interest rates. In addition, this program
affords credit only under stringent conditions.
Institutions seeking extended credit must submit a
business plan describing how they intend to address
their liquidity difficulties, and they must have
exhausted all other sources of funding before turning
to the window. Borrowers in the extended​

credit program are expected to restrain lending

activity to the minimum required to remain viable
in serving their markets. More generally, a borrower
must shrink its balance sheet in an orderly
manner, and its efforts to do so are closely monitored​

by its Reserve Bank.


Notice the embolded part of the above?

Wonder why banks are reluctant to loan money right now?

There's a clue I suspect

 

[DSGE]

Do you know what the rate they're paying at the FED window

Look it up. then compare it to the rate one gets on a T bill.

I promise you you'd dearly LOVE to borrow at the FED window rate and then lend that same money BACK to the federal government (buying T bills) at the rate the T bills, pay.

THIS is a perfect example of the the wefare for the INSIDERS that the lefties bitch about, sport.

So far the highest estimate is that the FED Reserve has lent $26 Trillion to the banksters rolling over the debt and repayments over and over and over again.

That, my friend, is welfare for the BANKSTERS

The Federal Reserve Bank Discount Window & Payment System Risk Website

Discount rate is 0.75% and the secondary credit rate is 1.25%. These are very short term loans, usually overnight: The Federal Reserve Bank Discount Window & Payment System Risk Website

The T-bill rates: Daily Treasury Yield Curve Rates

So for the kind of arbitrage, or "welfare", you're suggesting to happen, the minimum term for the loan needs to be 5 years for primary credit and 7 years for secondary credit.

0.75%....You're right... or maybe we're both wrong I just checked the latest rate. which states it as 0.75%

OTOH here the rate is 0.7%

You're wrong about the length of time, permitted though.

That's been changing since the meltdown.

I'm informed that NOW the time period for discount window loans can be as high as two years.

E​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

XTENDED CREDIT​

The extended credit program is designed to address
the needs of institutions facing longer-term (​

​

​

​

‘‘extended’’)
liquidity pressures in exceptional circumstances.
For the past several years, the discount rate
charged on extended credit has been somewhat
above market interest rates. In addition, this program
affords credit only under stringent conditions.
Institutions seeking extended credit must submit a
business plan describing how they intend to address
their liquidity difficulties, and they must have
exhausted all other sources of funding before turning
to the window. Borrowers in the extended​

credit program are expected to restrain lending

activity to the minimum required to remain viable
in serving their markets. More generally, a borrower
must shrink its balance sheet in an orderly
manner, and its efforts to do so are closely monitored​

by its Reserve Bank.


Notice the embolded part of the above?

Wonder why banks are reluctant to loan money right now?

There's a clue I suspect

That shows a discount rate of 0.75 also. Are you looking at the Fed Funds rate that's 0.07? That's the rate at which banks lend to each other; not a rate for loans from the Fed.

So extended credit lasts up to 2 years. But the minimum we needed for arbitrage to take place was 5 years for primary credit and 7 years for secondary credit. So it's still not welfare.

Yes, they need to submit a business plan for addressing liquidity troubles and aren't supposed to use the loans for financing lending. These loans are lender of last resort loans. The entire point of them is that they're used in a liquidity crisis to provide banks with emergency liquidity. If banks are to borrow to finance loans, it's to be done in the Fed Funds market, where the rate is 0.07%.

This is not a reason banks aren't lending either. Let's take a look at non-borrowed reserves (reserves in the banking system that haven't been borrowed from the Fed and so aren't subject to the above conditions):

$1.6 trillion.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

That, my friend, is welfare for the BANKSTERS

actually many of the banks went bankrupt and the shareholder banksters (as you liberally call them) lost every penny. Those that remain are zombie banks that may or may not survive.

What the Fed has done is keep them alive in order to avoid a deep depression. The liberal is hyper critical as if even knows what banks are and has a better plan.

 

[DSGE]

That, my friend, is welfare for the BANKSTERS

actually many of the banks went bankrupt and the shareholder banksters (as you liberally call them) lost every penny. Those that remain are zombie banks that may or may not survive.

What the Fed has done is keep them alive in order to avoid a deep depression. The liberal is hyper critical as if even knows what banks are and has a better plan.

You call everything "liberal" (clearly not knowing what it means). What are we supposed to call you? What do you identify your views as? Just conservative?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

So, the fed under the federal reserve act can act as a last resort lender to any bank or company in the international capital market without any congressional oversight? And I'm to wear a tin foil hat because this is a normal practice?



Yeah, no.

Review the charter and come back with the provision that allows the reserve to loan, in secret without congressional oversight, monies to foreign banks and companies as a last resort lender.

 

[expat_panama]

...Loaning from the discount window to provide backstop liquidity during times of financial stress is their job.

Was it congressional authorized? No. The Fed works in secret and must. Which is why no audits allowed. If you're this lost on the scheme. READ some history. They work on their own in their interest. We're just the pawns that own the slavery.

Time to toss the tin foil hats and get back to facts. Back in 1913 Congress designated the Federal Reserve as the private banks lender of last resort. The Fed's constantly audited and their statements are posted here.

 

[expat_panama]

...a look at non-borrowed reserves (reserves in the banking system that haven't been borrowed from the Fed and so aren't subject to the above conditions):

$1.6 trillion.

Neat! It shows how we'd been having unprecidented negative reserves in '08 which were immediately fixed by TARP.

Just the same, 1.6 is a lot of trillions, and that means conditions for borrowing still have a lot of room for improvement.

 

[DSGE]

...a look at non-borrowed reserves (reserves in the banking system that haven't been borrowed from the Fed and so aren't subject to the above conditions):

$1.6 trillion.

Neat! It shows how we'd been having unprecidented negative reserves in '08 which were immediately fixed by TARP.

No. It shows there were negative non-borrowed reserves, which is total reserves minus borrowed reserves. So it's saying that in 2008 there were more reserves borrowed from the Fed than not.

 

[expat_panama]

...It was reported exactly the way it should be...

Sure, if all we want is 'proving' gold was pegged and the PCE wasn't. That's why we got gold's price from 1833 and the PCE's annual change since 1960, OF COURSE they looked different --politics, ya can't beat it!

Going back into business and hard reality, we start with 1800 and compare yr/yr for both gold--

--and inflation--

--and we begin with gold prices stable and everything else wild, and then we change over to gold crazy and everything else sane.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

...Loaning from the discount window to provide backstop liquidity during times of financial stress is their job.

Was it congressional authorized? No. The Fed works in secret and must. Which is why no audits allowed. If you're this lost on the scheme. READ some history. They work on their own in their interest. We're just the pawns that own the slavery.

Time to toss the tin foil hats and get back to facts. Back in 1913 Congress designated the Federal Reserve as the private banks lender of last resort. The Fed's constantly audited and their statements are posted here.

I'm fully aware of the FR internal audit disclosures. Sorry, lender of last resort to foreign banks is not in the reserve act.

 

[expat_panama]

...It shows how we'd been having unprecedented negative reserves in '08 which were immediately fixed by TARP.

No. It shows there were negative non-borrowed reserves, which is total reserves minus borrowed reserves...

OK, though even if we said it was really called "Federal Reserve monitored bank negative non-borrowed reserves" it would still be reversed by TARP. Something else we got is that the subsequent deficit spending fiscal policy turned TARP's correction into a stimulus generated catastrophe.