Upside down American flag seized by police

[CrimsonWhite]

I trust that the Sheriff knows the law, especially when he admits that the actions of his officers had no basis in the law.

The Sheriff in this case should do a little research.

Wisconsin Statute 947.07

The sheriff acted within the law and did not even know it.

That bill only refers to "damaging, destroying, or mutilating" the flag. Hanging it upside down does not fall under any of those categories.

If a person who suffers physical injury to his or her person or 3 emotional distress or damage to or loss of his or her property by reason of conduct 4 which that is prohibited under s. 943.012

Hey, if you can define hanging the flag upside down as speech, then I can define it as mutilation.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The Sheriff in this case should do a little research.

Wisconsin Statute 947.07

The sheriff acted within the law and did not even know it.

That bill only refers to "damaging, destroying, or mutilating" the flag. Hanging it upside down does not fall under any of those categories.

If a person who suffers physical injury to his or her person or 3 emotional distress or damage to or loss of his or her property by reason of conduct 4 which that is prohibited under s. 943.012

Hey, if you can define hanging the flag upside down as speech, then I can define it as mutilation.

I didn't say speech, I said expression. I'm not sure how a person would suffer physical injury, emotional distress, or damage to or loss of property by a flag hanging upside down.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

That bill only refers to "damaging, destroying, or mutilating" the flag. Hanging it upside down does not fall under any of those categories.

If a person who suffers physical injury to his or her person or 3 emotional distress or damage to or loss of his or her property by reason of conduct 4 which that is prohibited under s. 943.012

Hey, if you can define hanging the flag upside down as speech, then I can define it as mutilation.

I didn't say speech, I said expression. I'm not sure how a person would suffer physical injury, emotional distress, or damage to or loss of property by a flag hanging upside down.

Since you have yet to demonstrate how the man was sufferng from an extreme danger to life or property, we will consider it fact that the man was in violation of the Flag Code and therefore hanging the flag upside down is a desecration of the flag.

Surely you can see where the desecration of the flag could cause some emotional distress among the public on the 4th of July.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Hey, if you can define hanging the flag upside down as speech, then I can define it as mutilation.

I didn't say speech, I said expression. I'm not sure how a person would suffer physical injury, emotional distress, or damage to or loss of property by a flag hanging upside down.

Since you have yet to demonstrate how the man was sufferng from an extreme danger to life or property, we will consider it fact that the man was in violation of the Flag Code and therefore hanging the flag upside down is a desecration of the flag.

Surely you can see where the desecration of the flag could cause some emotional distress among the public on the 4th of July.

“Police officers went to the property, which is located directly on the parade route, and observed many people openly complaining about the situation, as well as openly voicing threats of property damage and bodily injury to the property owner,” the release said.

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

Now in this case, the police should have done what they could to protect the man from any such aggression considering he, under the Sheriff's own admission, broke no laws.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I didn't say speech, I said expression. I'm not sure how a person would suffer physical injury, emotional distress, or damage to or loss of property by a flag hanging upside down.

Since you have yet to demonstrate how the man was sufferng from an extreme danger to life or property, we will consider it fact that the man was in violation of the Flag Code and therefore hanging the flag upside down is a desecration of the flag.

Surely you can see where the desecration of the flag could cause some emotional distress among the public on the 4th of July.

“Police officers went to the property, which is located directly on the parade route, and observed many people openly complaining about the situation, as well as openly voicing threats of property damage and bodily injury to the property owner,” the release said.

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

Now in this case, the police should have done what they could to protect the man from any such aggression considering he, under the Sheriff's own admission, broke no laws.

I have already conceded that the police and the DA fucked up in their application.

However, we were arguing the legal aspects of the case.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Since you have yet to demonstrate how the man was sufferng from an extreme danger to life or property, we will consider it fact that the man was in violation of the Flag Code and therefore hanging the flag upside down is a desecration of the flag.

Surely you can see where the desecration of the flag could cause some emotional distress among the public on the 4th of July.

“Police officers went to the property, which is located directly on the parade route, and observed many people openly complaining about the situation, as well as openly voicing threats of property damage and bodily injury to the property owner,” the release said.

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

Now in this case, the police should have done what they could to protect the man from any such aggression considering he, under the Sheriff's own admission, broke no laws.

I have already conceded that the police and the DA fucked up in their application.

However, we were arguing the legal aspects of the case.

Well alright, I provided a quote demonstrating that there was apparently a threat to this man and his property.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

Now in this case, the police should have done what they could to protect the man from any such aggression considering he, under the Sheriff's own admission, broke no laws.

I have already conceded that the police and the DA fucked up in their application.

However, we were arguing the legal aspects of the case.

Well alright, I provided a quote demonstrating that there was apparently a threat to this man and his property.

And I have quoted both state and federal laws that this man was in violation of. His unlawful actions outweigh his percieved right to expression. He was not under extreme distress and therefore was not lawfully displaying the American Flag on the holiest of Holy Days of celebration for what that flag represents. It could be argued that the Police were protecting both the unlawful flag owner and the people that were "threatning" him by removing the unlawful catalyst that was the root of all the trouble. Job well done.

Seriously though, we could go around this all night if you want to get into every minute detail. However, I have early mass, followed by an afternoon round of golf and need to get get some sleep. We can continue what has become a very interesting discussion in the morning.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I have already conceded that the police and the DA fucked up in their application.

However, we were arguing the legal aspects of the case.

Well alright, I provided a quote demonstrating that there was apparently a threat to this man and his property.

And I have quoted both state and federal laws that this man was in violation of. His unlawful actions outweigh his percieved right to expression. He was not under extreme distress and therefore was not lawfully displaying the American Flag on the holiest of Holy Days of celebration for what that flag represents. It could be argued that the Police were protecting both the unlawful flag owner and the people that were "threatning" him by removing the unlawful catalyst that was the root of all the trouble. Job well done.

Seriously though, we could go around this all night if you want to get into every minute detail. However, I have early mass, followed by an afternoon round of golf and need to get get some sleep. We can continue what has become a very interesting discussion in the morning.

At this point I think we're essentially going in circles. Good luck at golf tomorrow.

 

[jgbkab]

If the Sheriff and DA were acting within their rights, they would have arrested the owner and then confiscated the flag. If you're a litigator, you know this case is ripe for the pickings. Under the direct authority of the DA may mean that there was no warrant. The DA should have used the law in question to arrest the owner. I'm sure that no judge would have touched that warrant with a ten foot pole. But only then would the DA have a leg to stand on if this goes before a federal judge. As it stands, it is petit larceny and trespassing at best and a violation of civil rights at worst.

 

[xotoxi]

§177. Conduct during hoisting, lowering or passing of flag

During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.

Could I be arrested if I do not place my right hand over my heart when present at a flag lowering?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

....

I recognized in my post that it is a distress call, but he wasn't under any distress. He isn't using it to bring notice to veterans rights, he is protesting the fact that he can't have a god damned liquor license. It was disrespectful. He knows it. The cops knew it, I know it and you know it.

When not in actual distress, flying the flag upside down is a desecration.

But is it a criminal offence?

If it had caused a riot or other public outcry during the parade, he would have been guilty of creating a disturbance. As the Cops explained.

 

[xotoxi]

If it had caused a riot or other public outcry during the parade, he would have been guilty of creating a disturbance. As the Cops explained.

Then why are these people not arrested. There is certainly a lot more of a public outcry to these people's signs then there is to a upside-down flag.

 

[jgbkab]

If it had caused a riot or other public outcry during the parade, he would have been guilty of creating a disturbance. As the Cops explained.

Then why are these people not arrested. There is certainly a lot more of a public outcry to these people's signs then there is to a upside-down flag.

Actually, the lady is wearing the flag upside down.

 

[xotoxi]

If it had caused a riot or other public outcry during the parade, he would have been guilty of creating a disturbance. As the Cops explained.

Then why are these people not arrested. There is certainly a lot more of a public outcry to these people's signs then there is to a upside-down flag.

Actually, the lady is wearing the flag upside down.

Good point! I hadn't noticed that. Two violations there (upside down flag, flag warn as clothing)

And there is hard evidence because of the picture.

 

[editec]

....

I recognized in my post that it is a distress call, but he wasn't under any distress. He isn't using it to bring notice to veterans rights, he is protesting the fact that he can't have a god damned liquor license. It was disrespectful. He knows it. The cops knew it, I know it and you know it.

When not in actual distress, flying the flag upside down is a desecration.

But is it a criminal offence?

I don't think so.

Removing it was, though.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The cops illegally went onto his property and then stole from him. There's no law saying that you can't fly the flag upside down.

There is no law against it, but there is a strict code that governs it.

Private property is private property. The police had no right to go on his land and seize his property considering no laws were broken.

The Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag is free speech. So certainly flying a flag upside down or any other way is just as legally acceptable.

Those cops had no warrant to seize a citizens private property and should be brought up on charges.

 

[editec]

....

I recognized in my post that it is a distress call, but he wasn't under any distress. He isn't using it to bring notice to veterans rights, he is protesting the fact that he can't have a god damned liquor license. It was disrespectful. He knows it. The cops knew it, I know it and you know it.

When not in actual distress, flying the flag upside down is a desecration.

But is it a criminal offence?

If it had caused a riot or other public outcry during the parade, he would have been guilty of creating a disturbance. As the Cops explained.

If the cops said that then the cops are full of shit

 

[CrimsonWhite]

There is no law against it, but there is a strict code that governs it.

Private property is private property. The police had no right to go on his land and seize his property considering no laws were broken.

The Supreme Court has ruled that burning a flag is free speech. So certainly flying a flag upside down or any other way is just as legally acceptable.

Those cops had no warrant to seize a citizens private property and should be brought up on charges.

Flag burning isn't covered in the US Code. This however is governed by the US Code. The flag can only be flown upside down in dire distress of extreme danger to life or property. This man was in violation of federal law and his actions were causing public disorder. The cops didn't need a warrant.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

If the Sheriff and DA were acting within their rights, they would have arrested the owner and then confiscated the flag. If you're a litigator, you know this case is ripe for the pickings. Under the direct authority of the DA may mean that there was no warrant. The DA should have used the law in question to arrest the owner. I'm sure that no judge would have touched that warrant with a ten foot pole. But only then would the DA have a leg to stand on if this goes before a federal judge. As it stands, it is petit larceny and trespassing at best and a violation of civil rights at worst.

Not quite. The offense was not an punishable offense. This case is doosey on both sides. The cops did not need a warrant as they were keeping the peace, however, I could just as easily argue for the mans 1st amendment rights, then step across the aisle and argue that he was in violation of the US Flag Code. This one is prime for litigation on both sides.

In order for the man to have a case, flying the flag upside down will have to be established as speech, which at current, it is not. However, that is where precedents start.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Then why are these people not arrested. There is certainly a lot more of a public outcry to these people's signs then there is to a upside-down flag.

Actually, the lady is wearing the flag upside down.

Good point! I hadn't noticed that. Two violations there (upside down flag, flag warn as clothing)

And there is hard evidence because of the picture.

Perhaps that sheriff is lazy. The picture isn't really relevant because it wasn't taken in Wisconsin. There is no level application of law, to argue as such is naive.