Upside down American flag seized by police

[CrimsonWhite]

Private property is private property. The police had no right to go on his land and seize his property considering no laws were broken.

Section 285b of Title 2 of the US Code. Read it then explain to me how the man was in dire distress with etreme danger to life or property. If you can successfully do that, then I will admit that no laws were broken. The fact is, the man was in flagrant violation of the US Code. This DA, the cops, nor anybody else knew this, but that changes nothing.

But hey, I'll play. Even a shitty attorney could make a case for disturbing the peace with this one. If the peace was truly disturbed, then the police had every right within the law to seize the flag, just as they would alcohol at a party that was out of hand.

He was protesting the government not allowing him to conduct his business.
What peace was disturbed? They claimed that it could upset some of the other veterans that would being in the parade. Also, if people are getting drunk and being rowdy then they are violating other people's rights. Flying a flag upside down has no such effect.

How does the bolded part demonstrate and extreme danger to life or property? I'll answer that for you. It doesn't. A liquor license is a privelage, just as a Driver's license, CDL, hunting, fishing, or medical license is a privelage. They are not rights, so the government violated no rights by denying the license.

If people are offended by the flag flying upside down, then it would be a disturbance of the peace. If it upsets people, especially on the holiest of holy days in our nations history, then it constitutues a disturbance. They let him fly it on Friday. He was back to flying it on Sunday. I really think the man is making a mountain out of mole hill here.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Section 285b of Title 2 of the US Code. Read it then explain to me how the man was in dire distress with etreme danger to life or property. If you can successfully do that, then I will admit that no laws were broken. The fact is, the man was in flagrant violation of the US Code. This DA, the cops, nor anybody else knew this, but that changes nothing.

But hey, I'll play. Even a shitty attorney could make a case for disturbing the peace with this one. If the peace was truly disturbed, then the police had every right within the law to seize the flag, just as they would alcohol at a party that was out of hand.

He was protesting the government not allowing him to conduct his business.
What peace was disturbed? They claimed that it could upset some of the other veterans that would being in the parade. Also, if people are getting drunk and being rowdy then they are violating other people's rights. Flying a flag upside down has no such effect.

How does the bolded part demonstrate and extreme danger to life or property? I'll answer that for you. It doesn't. A liquor license is a privelage, just as a Driver's license, CDL, hunting, fishing, or medical license is a privelage. They are not rights, so the government violated no rights by denying the license.

If people are offended by the flag flying upside down, then it would be a disturbance of the peace. If it upsets people, especially on the holiest of holy days in our nations history, then it constitutues a disturbance. They let him fly it on Friday. He was back to flying it on Sunday. I really think the man is making a mountain out of mole hill here.

Why should the government get to say who may or may not sell alcohol?

I can see how some may be offended by the flag flying upside down, but why should that matter? It was his property. If that's the justification then nobody should be allowed to fly any flag at all, including the U.S. flag.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

He was protesting the government not allowing him to conduct his business.
What peace was disturbed? They claimed that it could upset some of the other veterans that would being in the parade. Also, if people are getting drunk and being rowdy then they are violating other people's rights. Flying a flag upside down has no such effect.

How does the bolded part demonstrate and extreme danger to life or property? I'll answer that for you. It doesn't. A liquor license is a privelage, just as a Driver's license, CDL, hunting, fishing, or medical license is a privelage. They are not rights, so the government violated no rights by denying the license.

If people are offended by the flag flying upside down, then it would be a disturbance of the peace. If it upsets people, especially on the holiest of holy days in our nations history, then it constitutues a disturbance. They let him fly it on Friday. He was back to flying it on Sunday. I really think the man is making a mountain out of mole hill here.

[quoteKevin_Kennedy;1335085]Why should the government get to say who may or may not sell alcohol?

Same reason they get to decide who gets a driver's license, but this neither here nor there and a discussion for another day. Stay on point, how was an extreme danger demonstarted?

[quoteKevin_Kennedy;1335085]I can see how some may be offended by the flag flying upside down, but why should that matter? It was his property. If that's the justification then nobody should be allowed to fly any flag at all, including the U.S. flag.[/quote]

It shouldn't matter, but the fact is that sometimes it does. Like I said, on the 3rd or the 5th, this probably wasn't that big of a deal, but on the 4th it becomes one. Same as nutjobs burning the Flag at the funerals of US Soldiers. The flag is a touchy subject for those who have been shot at defending it. If it was deemed inappropriate and offended the general public, then they were right to remove it, if only for that day. I'll put money that the USSC would agree with me.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

 

[Diuretic]

Section 285b of Title 2 of the US Code. Read it then explain to me how the man was in dire distress with etreme danger to life or property. If you can successfully do that, then I will admit that no laws were broken. The fact is, the man was in flagrant violation of the US Code. This DA, the cops, nor anybody else knew this, but that changes nothing.

But hey, I'll play. Even a shitty attorney could make a case for disturbing the peace with this one. If the peace was truly disturbed, then the police had every right within the law to seize the flag, just as they would alcohol at a party that was out of hand.

What's the penalty for a breach of Section 285b Title 2?

There are no penalties imposed at the federal level. The code allows for the states to impose there own own laws and penalties for the US Flag. As I am not licensed to practice in Wisconsn and have only been to the stae for football games, I cannot even begin to tell what their laws are. However, the man was still in violation of the US Code, whether he can be punished for it or not.

Disturbance of the peace is a better argument for the government here. If the fact that he was flying the flag upside was causing a public distubance, much like a loud car stereo, then the police would have every right to confiscate the flag just as they would have the right to remove the stereo from the car. This of course may not be relevant in Wisconsin, but the general idea applies.

Thanks for that info, much appreciated.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

Okay, we'll consider my pont on the Flag code a win, since you have decided to ignore it.

Why would the US Flag offend anyone on US Soil? Bullshit. The intent and meanng is what is offensive. Not the flag itself.

Also, police are not there to defend anything. There job is to protect and serve. Protect from harm. It could be argued that they were protecting him from physcal harm and vandalism by removing the flag. We could go back and forth all day. Fact is, his intent was misguided and his instituion of a legal channel of protest was in actuality a desecration of one of our nation's most beloved symbols, on a day of celebration for what that flag represents. He was wrong.

However, That doesn't make the police or the DA right. Without charges filed, they have left themselves wide open for litigation. This was a boneheaded move. One that probably could have been avoided.

 

[Diuretic]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

The police probably aren't interested in his or anyone else's private property rights. The police exist as an instrument of the state and act in the interests of the state. That means number one concern is maintenance of public order. If behaviours threaten public order then it's entirely possible that whoever is causing that threat (even potentially) to public order is going to get sorted out by the police. I'm not familiar with US definitions of "disturbing the peace" because I'm only familiar with common law and English and Australian legal ideas of "breach of peace" so I'll read more with interest.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

Okay, we'll consider my pont on the Flag code a win, since you have decided to ignore it.

Why would the US Flag offend anyone on US Soil? Bullshit. The intent and meanng is what is offensive. Not the flag itself.

Also, police are not there to defend anything. There job is to protect and serve. Protect from harm. It could be argued that they were protecting him from physcal harm and vandalism by removing the flag. We could go back and forth all day. Fact is, his intent was misguided and his instituion of a legal channel of protest was in actuality a desecration of one of our nation's most beloved symbols, on a day of celebration for what that flag represents. He was wrong.

However, That doesn't make the police or the DA right. Without charges filed, they have left themselves wide open for litigation. This was a boneheaded move. One that probably could have been avoided.

What do you want me to do? Deny that the code exists? I don't.

However, there is no law saying that a flag cannot be hung upside down. We have the right to our own private property and a right to self-expression. It is the job of the police to protect the people and their rights, and to arrest anyone who aggresses against another person or their rights.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

The police probably aren't interested in his or anyone else's private property rights. The police exist as an instrument of the state and act in the interests of the state. That means number one concern is maintenance of public order. If behaviours threaten public order then it's entirely possible that whoever is causing that threat (even potentially) to public order is going to get sorted out by the police. I'm not familiar with US definitions of "disturbing the peace" because I'm only familiar with common law and English and Australian legal ideas of "breach of peace" so I'll read more with interest.

Of course they don't care about private property rights, and that's exactly the problem.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

The police probably aren't interested in his or anyone else's private property rights. The police exist as an instrument of the state and act in the interests of the state. That means number one concern is maintenance of public order. If behaviours threaten public order then it's entirely possible that whoever is causing that threat (even potentially) to public order is going to get sorted out by the police. I'm not familiar with US definitions of "disturbing the peace" because I'm only familiar with common law and English and Australian legal ideas of "breach of peace" so I'll read more with interest.

Exactly. The police are not there to defend personal rights. That is up to the indvidual.

Our disturbance of the peace laws are direct descendants of Englsh common law. There are very few differences in application of resitution. Differences mostly deal with teh applicaton of our Miranda rights.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

The police probably aren't interested in his or anyone else's private property rights. The police exist as an instrument of the state and act in the interests of the state. That means number one concern is maintenance of public order. If behaviours threaten public order then it's entirely possible that whoever is causing that threat (even potentially) to public order is going to get sorted out by the police. I'm not familiar with US definitions of "disturbing the peace" because I'm only familiar with common law and English and Australian legal ideas of "breach of peace" so I'll read more with interest.

Exactly. The police are not there to defend personal rights. That is up to the indvidual.

Our disturbance of the peace laws are direct descendants of Englsh common law. There are very few differences in application of resitution. Differences mostly deal with teh applicaton of our Miranda rights.

If the police aren't here to defend personal rights then your earlier example of breaking up a rowdy party makes no sense. Are they not defending the rights of those being annoyed by the raucous party?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

It shouldn't matter, we're talking about private property. What if the flag itself offends somebody and their neighbor is flying it? Do the police have the right to go on the neighbors land and steal their flag? Of course not. If people would have been offended by the flag flying upside down then the police should have been prepared to defend his private property rights and stop anyone from committing aggression against him, not be the aggressors themselves.

Okay, we'll consider my pont on the Flag code a win, since you have decided to ignore it.

Why would the US Flag offend anyone on US Soil? Bullshit. The intent and meanng is what is offensive. Not the flag itself.

Also, police are not there to defend anything. There job is to protect and serve. Protect from harm. It could be argued that they were protecting him from physcal harm and vandalism by removing the flag. We could go back and forth all day. Fact is, his intent was misguided and his instituion of a legal channel of protest was in actuality a desecration of one of our nation's most beloved symbols, on a day of celebration for what that flag represents. He was wrong.

However, That doesn't make the police or the DA right. Without charges filed, they have left themselves wide open for litigation. This was a boneheaded move. One that probably could have been avoided.

What do you want me to do? Deny that the code exists? I don't.

However, there is no law saying that a flag cannot be hung upside down. We have the right to our own private property and a right to self-expression. It is the job of the police to protect the people and their rights, and to arrest anyone who aggresses against another person or their rights.

You do understand that the US code is what is commonly refered to as Federal Law, right?

I'm not sure how your understandng of the police applies here.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Okay, we'll consider my pont on the Flag code a win, since you have decided to ignore it.

Why would the US Flag offend anyone on US Soil? Bullshit. The intent and meanng is what is offensive. Not the flag itself.

Also, police are not there to defend anything. There job is to protect and serve. Protect from harm. It could be argued that they were protecting him from physcal harm and vandalism by removing the flag. We could go back and forth all day. Fact is, his intent was misguided and his instituion of a legal channel of protest was in actuality a desecration of one of our nation's most beloved symbols, on a day of celebration for what that flag represents. He was wrong.

However, That doesn't make the police or the DA right. Without charges filed, they have left themselves wide open for litigation. This was a boneheaded move. One that probably could have been avoided.

What do you want me to do? Deny that the code exists? I don't.

However, there is no law saying that a flag cannot be hung upside down. We have the right to our own private property and a right to self-expression. It is the job of the police to protect the people and their rights, and to arrest anyone who aggresses against another person or their rights.

You do understand that the US code is what is commonly refered to as Federal Law, right?

I'm not sure how your understandng of the police applies here.

You said yourself that it was up to the state or local government regarding the flag, and there is no law pertaining to the flag where this event occurred.

My point is that the police should have been prepared to defend the man's property if they expected that there may be some kind of uproar over it. How do you "keep the peace" if you're the organization ignoring private property rights and committing aggression against those you're supposed to protect?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

What do you want me to do? Deny that the code exists? I don't.

However, there is no law saying that a flag cannot be hung upside down. We have the right to our own private property and a right to self-expression. It is the job of the police to protect the people and their rights, and to arrest anyone who aggresses against another person or their rights.

You do understand that the US code is what is commonly refered to as Federal Law, right?

I'm not sure how your understandng of the police applies here.

You said yourself that it was up to the state or local government regarding the flag, and there is no law pertaining to the flag where this event occurred.

My point is that the police should have been prepared to defend the man's property if they expected that there may be some kind of uproar over it. How do you "keep the peace" if you're the organization ignoring private property rights and committing aggression against those you're supposed to protect?

There is law. Penalty is left up to the state. Do you know for sure that there is no law pertaining to flag in Wisconsin?

As we are in complete disagreement over the role of the Police, we will simply have to agree to disagree there.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You do understand that the US code is what is commonly refered to as Federal Law, right?

I'm not sure how your understandng of the police applies here.

You said yourself that it was up to the state or local government regarding the flag, and there is no law pertaining to the flag where this event occurred.

My point is that the police should have been prepared to defend the man's property if they expected that there may be some kind of uproar over it. How do you "keep the peace" if you're the organization ignoring private property rights and committing aggression against those you're supposed to protect?

There is law. Penalty is left up to the state. Do you know for sure that there is no law pertaining to flag in Wisconsin?

As we are in complete disagreement over the role of the Police, we will simply have to agree to disagree there.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

 

[CrimsonWhite]

You said yourself that it was up to the state or local government regarding the flag, and there is no law pertaining to the flag where this event occurred.

My point is that the police should have been prepared to defend the man's property if they expected that there may be some kind of uproar over it. How do you "keep the peace" if you're the organization ignoring private property rights and committing aggression against those you're supposed to protect?

There is law. Penalty is left up to the state. Do you know for sure that there is no law pertaining to flag in Wisconsin?

As we are in complete disagreement over the role of the Police, we will simply have to agree to disagree there.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

So now you are taking the word of the County Sherif whose actions you are questioning?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There is law. Penalty is left up to the state. Do you know for sure that there is no law pertaining to flag in Wisconsin?

As we are in complete disagreement over the role of the Police, we will simply have to agree to disagree there.

Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July.

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

So now you are taking the word of the County Sherif whose actions you are questioning?

I trust that the Sheriff knows the law, especially when he admits that the actions of his officers had no basis in the law.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Update: Flag dispute erupts in Crivitz | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette

So now you are taking the word of the County Sherif whose actions you are questioning?

I trust that the Sheriff knows the law, especially when he admits that the actions of his officers had no basis in the law.

The Sheriff in this case should do a little research.

Wisconsin Statute 947.07

The sheriff acted within the law and did not even know it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So now you are taking the word of the County Sherif whose actions you are questioning?

I trust that the Sheriff knows the law, especially when he admits that the actions of his officers had no basis in the law.

The Sheriff in this case should do a little research.

Wisconsin Statute 947.07

The sheriff acted within the law and did not even know it.

That bill only refers to "damaging, destroying, or mutilating" the flag. Hanging it upside down does not fall under any of those categories.

 

[Diuretic]

I trust that the Sheriff knows the law, especially when he admits that the actions of his officers had no basis in the law.

The Sheriff in this case should do a little research.

Wisconsin Statute 947.07

The sheriff acted within the law and did not even know it.

That bill only refers to "damaging, destroying, or mutilating" the flag. Hanging it upside down does not fall under any of those categories.

What if it makes the flag dizzy?