Trump, Authenticity, and the Illegitimacy of the political establishment

well named

poorly undertitled
Oct 2, 2018
432
84
80
That is the subject of a recent article in the American Sociological Review (PDF attached; see below for citation).

Thinking of Trump, the authors want to better understand what makes him seem authentic or trustworthy to certain voters despite the fact that he sometimes deliberately says things those voters know to be false. The question is essentially: why don't those falsehoods diminish his credibility?

They carry out an experiment to try to test a theoretical hypothesis, but I thought it would be interesting to see if Trump supporters here consider the conclusions they reach to be valid. To paraphrase, they argue that rather than causing Trump to lose credibility, those deliberate lies become further evidence of his authenticity to those voters because they perceive the lies in the context of a larger crisis of political illegitimacy. That is, they perceive Trump to be challenging an illegitimate political order, and his tactics justified by that context.

The authors describe the perception of illegitimacy (in general) like this:

"these crises involve three groups: (1) a political establishment; (2) an incumbent group who sees itself as the “real people” (Müller 2016) but has been losing power; and (3) a group of erstwhile outsiders who are rising and whom the incumbent group views as being unfairly favored by the establishment." (8)

"Such a power-devaluation crisis thus creates conditions under which a traditionalist or right-wing lying demagogue should have authentic appeal. The logic is the same as in a representation crisis, but now the demagogue is challenging new norms rather than existing ones, and he is arguing that the establishment is illegitimate because it has betrayed the values and interests of an incumbent group that had previously held sway for appropriate reasons. Again, the demagogue will seem more of an authentic champion insofar as her norm-breaking induces the (new) establishment to denigrate her, thus making her seem more committed to the aggrieved constituency than is a candidate who does not flagrantly break (the new) norms." (9)
Please ignore the apparently pejorative connotations of "lying demogogue", they give the term a somewhat more technical gloss, but I'm interested in whether this narrative makes sense to people who identify as Trump supporters. Is Trump "an authentic champion" because he breaks norms (i.e. of political correctness, or etc.)? Do you consider yourself to be a member of a group that is losing relative status or power to other less deserving groups of people? If you disagree with the authors, what do you think they get wrong?

1) Hahl, Oliver, Minjae Kim, and Ezra Sivan. 2018. "The Authentic Appeal of the Lying Demagogue:
Proclaiming the Deeper Truth about Political Illegitimacy." American Sociological Review, 83(1):1-33.
 

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On the one hand, in my experience I have found that people who think themselves scholarly often have far too much free time.

On the other hand, such overwrought analysis has resulted in some wonderful literary fiction.
 
I know a Retired Professor Emeritus that authors textbooks and he is the most clueless man I've ever met.....
 
Seems like a fairly one sided article that makes many assumptions. It is a fairly standard 'people who were once in power' afraid of 'the new group gaining power' argument. This assumes traditional values are a thing of the past that should be let go in favor of larger government control and power. If you believe in traditional values such as individual freedom you are backwards for not letting the government gain more and more control of your life. I don't see it as a past vs future thing. There is no need to discard freedom in the name of 'newness'. Trump is not hanging on to the past. He believes people should have control of their own lives. This belief does not make him or his voters backwards. He is not selling people things that he is not delivering. He has been fairly effective doing exactly what he said he was going to do. People definitely respect that. I really don't care if he is wrong on crowd sizes, or if he cheats on his wives. People gave him a job, and he has stuck to his promises more than any other president I can remember. I am curious about all the lies that are giving you problems. So far, he has not had a 'you can keep your doctor' moment.
 
Prior to being viciously attacked on a daily basis by the CNN App, Trump never behaved like this.
The media, especially CNN, got what they sowed.
 
That is the subject of a recent article in the American Sociological Review (PDF attached; see below for citation).

Thinking of Trump, the authors want to better understand what makes him seem authentic or trustworthy to certain voters despite the fact that he sometimes deliberately says things those voters know to be false. The question is essentially: why don't those falsehoods diminish his credibility?

They carry out an experiment to try to test a theoretical hypothesis, but I thought it would be interesting to see if Trump supporters here consider the conclusions they reach to be valid. To paraphrase, they argue that rather than causing Trump to lose credibility, those deliberate lies become further evidence of his authenticity to those voters because they perceive the lies in the context of a larger crisis of political illegitimacy. That is, they perceive Trump to be challenging an illegitimate political order, and his tactics justified by that context.

The authors describe the perception of illegitimacy (in general) like this:

"these crises involve three groups: (1) a political establishment; (2) an incumbent group who sees itself as the “real people” (Müller 2016) but has been losing power; and (3) a group of erstwhile outsiders who are rising and whom the incumbent group views as being unfairly favored by the establishment." (8)

"Such a power-devaluation crisis thus creates conditions under which a traditionalist or right-wing lying demagogue should have authentic appeal. The logic is the same as in a representation crisis, but now the demagogue is challenging new norms rather than existing ones, and he is arguing that the establishment is illegitimate because it has betrayed the values and interests of an incumbent group that had previously held sway for appropriate reasons. Again, the demagogue will seem more of an authentic champion insofar as her norm-breaking induces the (new) establishment to denigrate her, thus making her seem more committed to the aggrieved constituency than is a candidate who does not flagrantly break (the new) norms." (9)
Please ignore the apparently pejorative connotations of "lying demogogue", they give the term a somewhat more technical gloss, but I'm interested in whether this narrative makes sense to people who identify as Trump supporters. Is Trump "an authentic champion" because he breaks norms (i.e. of political correctness, or etc.)? Do you consider yourself to be a member of a group that is losing relative status or power to other less deserving groups of people? If you disagree with the authors, what do you think they get wrong?

1) Hahl, Oliver, Minjae Kim, and Ezra Sivan. 2018. "The Authentic Appeal of the Lying Demagogue:
Proclaiming the Deeper Truth about Political Illegitimacy." American Sociological Review, 83(1):1-33.
He was elected because he was not a politician, also DC needed someone who was not one of the group. Every Nation needs someone to stir the pot and raise hell and can not be pushed around. We have not had one like that in a long time. We over look anything he does if it is not bad for the country. The last many Presidents were a disappointment. IKE and Harry Truman were about the last ones who delivered. He is doing ok so far, but we will see how is going to do in the future.
 
I'd like to contribute more, but you nave not been around long enough to trust to click on that link. Sorry.
 
On the one hand, in my experience I have found that people who think themselves scholarly often have far too much free time.

On the other hand, such overwrought analysis has resulted in some wonderful literary fiction.

Seems like a fairly one sided article that makes many assumptions. It is a fairly standard 'people who were once in power' afraid of 'the new group gaining power' argument.

My wife's grad school advisor once said something like "a sociologist is someone who will take thousands of dollars and 18 months to tell you something your taxi driver would have told you for free." More recently, I heard someone describe social science research as "made up but thought provoking". I think there's at least a hint of truth in both of those :p

This assumes traditional values are a thing of the past that should be let go in favor of larger government control and power. If you believe in traditional values such as individual freedom you are backwards for not letting the government gain more and more control of your life.

I suspect that the authors might view "traditional values" in the way you suggest, but I don't think the research itself makes any of the assumptions you list, despite a few of the choices in terminology. Both it and this thread are more interested in how Trump supporters perceive the situation for themselves. I've completely skipped over the actual experiment they performed, but it's an interesting read.

As far as the traditional vs new values in question, I would suggest based on the other research they cite and the outline of the argument they made that they are thinking about political issues involving immigration, affirmative action, #metoo and the like, more so than "larger government control" in the abstract. The contention is that it's more about cultural change and the so-called "culture wars".

I don't see it as a past vs future thing. There is no need to discard freedom in the name of 'newness'. Trump is not hanging on to the past. He believes people should have control of their own lives. This belief does not make him or his voters backwards. He is not selling people things that he is not delivering. He has been fairly effective doing exactly what he said he was going to do. People definitely respect that. I really don't care if he is wrong on crowd sizes, or if he cheats on his wives. People gave him a job, and he has stuck to his promises more than any other president I can remember. I am curious about all the lies that are giving you problems. So far, he has not had a 'you can keep your doctor' moment.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. If I'm understanding you, you would say that for you it's not so much that you're willing to excuse some statements which you would otherwise consider egregious on the basis that Trump is a champion against an illegitimate establishment. Rather, you just don't think he's told any particularly egregious lies. Do I have that right?

FWIW, one example the article uses of a blatant lie is the claim that climate change is a chinese hoax. But to be clear I'm not looking for an argument on the veracity of specific claims in this thread.

I'd like to contribute more, but you nave not been around long enough to trust to click on that link. Sorry.

No problem. You can always copy/paste the title of the article into the search engine of your choice if you want to read the article.
 
I won't click on it either but I believe I get the gist of it. I cannot explain why Trump has won elections when other politicians with very similar platforms failed, but I think Trump found a way to slowly win people over simply due to his tenacity. His core base got him started, and the longer he went on the more popular he got.

One thing I can say definitely works for him, despite his very awkward manner (rude, getting caught red-handed, calling people horrid names) is that he always shows his genuine feelings. He might distort facts, but he never lies about what he thinks or believes in a moral context, and that is extremely rare these days. When I see Democrats saying they believe any #metoo allegation no matter how thin the facts as long as it is against a Republican, all I see is purely partisan disingenuousness. They don't believe her (Blasey Ford, etc.) claims (unless they are fools who do not understand the meaning of corroborated evidence) - their every action is political in that ridiculously unsupportable allegation.

Next - what Trump says is what his followers are thinking, but are afraid to say. No, we would not say it the way he does, but we accept him because he (1) gets things done, and (2) defeated the establishment and (3) is exposing all of the faux politicians and especially the media for their unmitigated bias and arrogance in telling the American people that we are stupid if we do not kowtow to their political correctness.

To summarize, it comes down to spin. Trump is awkward, crude and bombastic, but he does not spin the truth about politics as he sees it. He always says what he believes to be true regardless of what other people think (except of course when he is refuting an allegation, and then he lies, but so do ALL politicians). Every other politician does the exact opposite, they say what they think is going to win the most votes and support from the vastly left-leaning media in this country.

The media is another reason for his support. Trump supporters hates the mainstream media - because it pretends to represent the center and report the news. In fact, they support the far left and what they report is their slanted opinion falsely presented as real news. But it is only "supported" by opinion statements from ultra-liberal professors, students, politicians and their skewed polls.

This is the first time the media has ever ranked lower in credibility than Congress, neither side is fully honest at all, but at least Fox admits where it stands. SNL, The Network News shows, Bill Mahr, etc are ALL liberal shills who are not funny or entertaining, they are just judgmental bigots who hate conservatives. There is no fair discourse in this country anymore. Trump is our equalizer against their constant bombardment of bias. He is far from perfect, but he sure is getting the job done.
 
Last edited:
Trump's lack of spin is nice, and the media's 90% negative story rate is also making Trump look better instead of worse. Nobody is saying Trump is a nice guy. We didn't want a Jimmy Carter, we wanted someone who would get things done. So far, Trump is doing exactly what he said he was going to do.
 
On the one hand, in my experience I have found that people who think themselves scholarly often have far too much free time.

On the other hand, such overwrought analysis has resulted in some wonderful literary fiction.

Seems like a fairly one sided article that makes many assumptions. It is a fairly standard 'people who were once in power' afraid of 'the new group gaining power' argument.

My wife's grad school advisor once said something like "a sociologist is someone who will take thousands of dollars and 18 months to tell you something your taxi driver would have told you for free." More recently, I heard someone describe social science research as "made up but thought provoking". I think there's at least a hint of truth in both of those :p

This assumes traditional values are a thing of the past that should be let go in favor of larger government control and power. If you believe in traditional values such as individual freedom you are backwards for not letting the government gain more and more control of your life.

I suspect that the authors might view "traditional values" in the way you suggest, but I don't think the research itself makes any of the assumptions you list, despite a few of the choices in terminology. Both it and this thread are more interested in how Trump supporters perceive the situation for themselves. I've completely skipped over the actual experiment they performed, but it's an interesting read.

As far as the traditional vs new values in question, I would suggest based on the other research they cite and the outline of the argument they made that they are thinking about political issues involving immigration, affirmative action, #metoo and the like, more so than "larger government control" in the abstract. The contention is that it's more about cultural change and the so-called "culture wars".

I don't see it as a past vs future thing. There is no need to discard freedom in the name of 'newness'. Trump is not hanging on to the past. He believes people should have control of their own lives. This belief does not make him or his voters backwards. He is not selling people things that he is not delivering. He has been fairly effective doing exactly what he said he was going to do. People definitely respect that. I really don't care if he is wrong on crowd sizes, or if he cheats on his wives. People gave him a job, and he has stuck to his promises more than any other president I can remember. I am curious about all the lies that are giving you problems. So far, he has not had a 'you can keep your doctor' moment.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. If I'm understanding you, you would say that for you it's not so much that you're willing to excuse some statements which you would otherwise consider egregious on the basis that Trump is a champion against an illegitimate establishment. Rather, you just don't think he's told any particularly egregious lies. Do I have that right?

FWIW, one example the article uses of a blatant lie is the claim that climate change is a chinese hoax. But to be clear I'm not looking for an argument on the veracity of specific claims in this thread.

I'd like to contribute more, but you nave not been around long enough to trust to click on that link. Sorry.

No problem. You can always copy/paste the title of the article into the search engine of your choice if you want to read the article.


The study's focus on 'culture wars', #metoo, and affirmative action is also tilted far to the left. Speaking for myself, that stuff is more like noise than actual issues. I think it is a great mistake to frame an argument that white people are afraid of minorities. This misses the point entirely, and I believe the argument is a construct in itself to promote racial conflict. It really is much more basic and fundamental. 'Equal opportunity' vs Equal outcomes' I think people should be allowed to succeed. 'Personal freedom vs Social Safety Nets' People should be allowed to make good choices. To assume most people can't is pretty pessimistic. Not everyone makes good choices, but safety nets should just be for people who need help. Again, people should be allowed the chance to succeed. 'Globalism' vs 'Nationalism' Why should people even vote if the country they live in does not have sovereignty on how its people live? There is nothing wrong with countries looking out for their own interests, and unlike many posters on this board, I do not believe nationalism makes you a monstrous nazi. There is so much going on that has nothing to do with ethnicity, that I feel ethnicity itself is just being used to create and maintain division.
 
On the one hand, in my experience I have found that people who think themselves scholarly often have far too much free time.

On the other hand, such overwrought analysis has resulted in some wonderful literary fiction.
translation for well named: Billy didn't get it.
 
That is the subject of a recent article in the American Sociological Review (PDF attached; see below for citation).

Thinking of Trump, the authors want to better understand what makes him seem authentic or trustworthy to certain voters despite the fact that he sometimes deliberately says things those voters know to be false. The question is essentially: why don't those falsehoods diminish his credibility?

They carry out an experiment to try to test a theoretical hypothesis, but I thought it would be interesting to see if Trump supporters here consider the conclusions they reach to be valid. To paraphrase, they argue that rather than causing Trump to lose credibility, those deliberate lies become further evidence of his authenticity to those voters because they perceive the lies in the context of a larger crisis of political illegitimacy. That is, they perceive Trump to be challenging an illegitimate political order, and his tactics justified by that context.

The authors describe the perception of illegitimacy (in general) like this:

"these crises involve three groups: (1) a political establishment; (2) an incumbent group who sees itself as the “real people” (Müller 2016) but has been losing power; and (3) a group of erstwhile outsiders who are rising and whom the incumbent group views as being unfairly favored by the establishment." (8)

"Such a power-devaluation crisis thus creates conditions under which a traditionalist or right-wing lying demagogue should have authentic appeal. The logic is the same as in a representation crisis, but now the demagogue is challenging new norms rather than existing ones, and he is arguing that the establishment is illegitimate because it has betrayed the values and interests of an incumbent group that had previously held sway for appropriate reasons. Again, the demagogue will seem more of an authentic champion insofar as her norm-breaking induces the (new) establishment to denigrate her, thus making her seem more committed to the aggrieved constituency than is a candidate who does not flagrantly break (the new) norms." (9)
Please ignore the apparently pejorative connotations of "lying demogogue", they give the term a somewhat more technical gloss, but I'm interested in whether this narrative makes sense to people who identify as Trump supporters. Is Trump "an authentic champion" because he breaks norms (i.e. of political correctness, or etc.)? Do you consider yourself to be a member of a group that is losing relative status or power to other less deserving groups of people? If you disagree with the authors, what do you think they get wrong?

1) Hahl, Oliver, Minjae Kim, and Ezra Sivan. 2018. "The Authentic Appeal of the Lying Demagogue:
Proclaiming the Deeper Truth about Political Illegitimacy." American Sociological Review, 83(1):1-33.
LOL
Here is a simple answer : Partisanship. This is nothing new. Obama could have shot someone on 4th avenue, and his supporters wouldnt give a shit. Same goes for many past Presidents.
Why does it seem like "educated" people are often dumb as fuck?
 
This is probably the classiest thread I've read lately. Very well reasoned and well written posts.
1. Nailed the rationale' for Trump's win
2. Nailed the rationale' for Trump's continued popularity
3. Didn't quite nail down the rationale' for defeating the "political establishment", aka swamp, aka globalists.
(IMHO the US was on a downward track until Trump's MAGA initiative, Trump still needs to deal with the Debt to fully restore the US to long term viability)
 
Leftists, Socialists, Democrats, Marxists, Liberals, Traitors, Communists (all the same shit) hate Trump. They hate freedom, liberty, and property rights.
They believe in government rule, sexual perversion, and slaughtering unborn babies. They are evil.
That is why they will lose next month.
 
On the one hand, in my experience I have found that people who think themselves scholarly often have far too much free time.

On the other hand, such overwrought analysis has resulted in some wonderful literary fiction.

Seems like a fairly one sided article that makes many assumptions. It is a fairly standard 'people who were once in power' afraid of 'the new group gaining power' argument.

My wife's grad school advisor once said something like "a sociologist is someone who will take thousands of dollars and 18 months to tell you something your taxi driver would have told you for free." More recently, I heard someone describe social science research as "made up but thought provoking". I think there's at least a hint of truth in both of those :p

This assumes traditional values are a thing of the past that should be let go in favor of larger government control and power. If you believe in traditional values such as individual freedom you are backwards for not letting the government gain more and more control of your life.

I suspect that the authors might view "traditional values" in the way you suggest, but I don't think the research itself makes any of the assumptions you list, despite a few of the choices in terminology. Both it and this thread are more interested in how Trump supporters perceive the situation for themselves. I've completely skipped over the actual experiment they performed, but it's an interesting read.

As far as the traditional vs new values in question, I would suggest based on the other research they cite and the outline of the argument they made that they are thinking about political issues involving immigration, affirmative action, #metoo and the like, more so than "larger government control" in the abstract. The contention is that it's more about cultural change and the so-called "culture wars".

I don't see it as a past vs future thing. There is no need to discard freedom in the name of 'newness'. Trump is not hanging on to the past. He believes people should have control of their own lives. This belief does not make him or his voters backwards. He is not selling people things that he is not delivering. He has been fairly effective doing exactly what he said he was going to do. People definitely respect that. I really don't care if he is wrong on crowd sizes, or if he cheats on his wives. People gave him a job, and he has stuck to his promises more than any other president I can remember. I am curious about all the lies that are giving you problems. So far, he has not had a 'you can keep your doctor' moment.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. If I'm understanding you, you would say that for you it's not so much that you're willing to excuse some statements which you would otherwise consider egregious on the basis that Trump is a champion against an illegitimate establishment. Rather, you just don't think he's told any particularly egregious lies. Do I have that right?

FWIW, one example the article uses of a blatant lie is the claim that climate change is a chinese hoax. But to be clear I'm not looking for an argument on the veracity of specific claims in this thread.

I'd like to contribute more, but you nave not been around long enough to trust to click on that link. Sorry.

No problem. You can always copy/paste the title of the article into the search engine of your choice if you want to read the article.


The study's focus on 'culture wars', #metoo, and affirmative action is also tilted far to the left. Speaking for myself, that stuff is more like noise than actual issues. I think it is a great mistake to frame an argument that white people are afraid of minorities. This misses the point entirely, and I believe the argument is a construct in itself to promote racial conflict. It really is much more basic and fundamental. 'Equal opportunity' vs Equal outcomes' I think people should be allowed to succeed. 'Personal freedom vs Social Safety Nets' People should be allowed to make good choices. To assume most people can't is pretty pessimistic. Not everyone makes good choices, but safety nets should just be for people who need help. Again, people should be allowed the chance to succeed. 'Globalism' vs 'Nationalism' Why should people even vote if the country they live in does not have sovereignty on how its people live? There is nothing wrong with countries looking out for their own interests, and unlike many posters on this board, I do not believe nationalism makes you a monstrous nazi. There is so much going on that has nothing to do with ethnicity, that I feel ethnicity itself is just being used to create and maintain division.
I think it is a great mistake to frame an argument that white people are afraid of minorities.
Where on earth did that come from? Because the OP mentioned affirmative action?
Pretty sure that is not what the article was referring to.
 
That is the subject of a recent article in the American Sociological Review (PDF attached; see below for citation).

Thinking of Trump, the authors want to better understand what makes him seem authentic or trustworthy to certain voters despite the fact that he sometimes deliberately says things those voters know to be false. The question is essentially: why don't those falsehoods diminish his credibility?

They carry out an experiment to try to test a theoretical hypothesis, but I thought it would be interesting to see if Trump supporters here consider the conclusions they reach to be valid. To paraphrase, they argue that rather than causing Trump to lose credibility, those deliberate lies become further evidence of his authenticity to those voters because they perceive the lies in the context of a larger crisis of political illegitimacy. That is, they perceive Trump to be challenging an illegitimate political order, and his tactics justified by that context.

The authors describe the perception of illegitimacy (in general) like this:

"these crises involve three groups: (1) a political establishment; (2) an incumbent group who sees itself as the “real people” (Müller 2016) but has been losing power; and (3) a group of erstwhile outsiders who are rising and whom the incumbent group views as being unfairly favored by the establishment." (8)

"Such a power-devaluation crisis thus creates conditions under which a traditionalist or right-wing lying demagogue should have authentic appeal. The logic is the same as in a representation crisis, but now the demagogue is challenging new norms rather than existing ones, and he is arguing that the establishment is illegitimate because it has betrayed the values and interests of an incumbent group that had previously held sway for appropriate reasons. Again, the demagogue will seem more of an authentic champion insofar as her norm-breaking induces the (new) establishment to denigrate her, thus making her seem more committed to the aggrieved constituency than is a candidate who does not flagrantly break (the new) norms." (9)
Please ignore the apparently pejorative connotations of "lying demogogue", they give the term a somewhat more technical gloss, but I'm interested in whether this narrative makes sense to people who identify as Trump supporters. Is Trump "an authentic champion" because he breaks norms (i.e. of political correctness, or etc.)? Do you consider yourself to be a member of a group that is losing relative status or power to other less deserving groups of people? If you disagree with the authors, what do you think they get wrong?

1) Hahl, Oliver, Minjae Kim, and Ezra Sivan. 2018. "The Authentic Appeal of the Lying Demagogue:
Proclaiming the Deeper Truth about Political Illegitimacy." American Sociological Review, 83(1):1-33.
LOL
Here is a simple answer : Partisanship. This is nothing new. Obama could have shot someone on 4th avenue, and his supporters wouldnt give a shit. Same goes for many past Presidents.
Why does it seem like "educated" people are often dumb as fuck?
In Trump's case, it is more than partisanship, TN. I think the OP is asking a perfectly reasonable question. Why so touchy?
 
That is the subject of a recent article in the American Sociological Review (PDF attached; see below for citation).

Thinking of Trump, the authors want to better understand what makes him seem authentic or trustworthy to certain voters despite the fact that he sometimes deliberately says things those voters know to be false. The question is essentially: why don't those falsehoods diminish his credibility?

They carry out an experiment to try to test a theoretical hypothesis, but I thought it would be interesting to see if Trump supporters here consider the conclusions they reach to be valid. To paraphrase, they argue that rather than causing Trump to lose credibility, those deliberate lies become further evidence of his authenticity to those voters because they perceive the lies in the context of a larger crisis of political illegitimacy. That is, they perceive Trump to be challenging an illegitimate political order, and his tactics justified by that context.

The authors describe the perception of illegitimacy (in general) like this:

"these crises involve three groups: (1) a political establishment; (2) an incumbent group who sees itself as the “real people” (Müller 2016) but has been losing power; and (3) a group of erstwhile outsiders who are rising and whom the incumbent group views as being unfairly favored by the establishment." (8)

"Such a power-devaluation crisis thus creates conditions under which a traditionalist or right-wing lying demagogue should have authentic appeal. The logic is the same as in a representation crisis, but now the demagogue is challenging new norms rather than existing ones, and he is arguing that the establishment is illegitimate because it has betrayed the values and interests of an incumbent group that had previously held sway for appropriate reasons. Again, the demagogue will seem more of an authentic champion insofar as her norm-breaking induces the (new) establishment to denigrate her, thus making her seem more committed to the aggrieved constituency than is a candidate who does not flagrantly break (the new) norms." (9)
Please ignore the apparently pejorative connotations of "lying demogogue", they give the term a somewhat more technical gloss, but I'm interested in whether this narrative makes sense to people who identify as Trump supporters. Is Trump "an authentic champion" because he breaks norms (i.e. of political correctness, or etc.)? Do you consider yourself to be a member of a group that is losing relative status or power to other less deserving groups of people? If you disagree with the authors, what do you think they get wrong?

1) Hahl, Oliver, Minjae Kim, and Ezra Sivan. 2018. "The Authentic Appeal of the Lying Demagogue:
Proclaiming the Deeper Truth about Political Illegitimacy." American Sociological Review, 83(1):1-33.
LOL
Here is a simple answer : Partisanship. This is nothing new. Obama could have shot someone on 4th avenue, and his supporters wouldnt give a shit. Same goes for many past Presidents.
Why does it seem like "educated" people are often dumb as fuck?
In Trump's case, it is more than partisanship, TN. I think the OP is asking a perfectly reasonable question. Why so touchy?
LOL
We have had presidents that lied with substance OL. Trumps lies are usually about bullshit. Lies to skew public opinion over MAJOR issues like regulation of 20% our economy. Wars. His/Their supporters didnt bat an eye. THEY STILL DENY IT.
This is only reasonable if you dont consider our past.
Im only 32 and i know this is routine with partisan hacks. Hell, people would take bullets to their integrity for Presidents that lead before they were even born!
Partisanship is a disease.
 

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