"Torture"???

[Kevin_Kennedy]

While the title was the same, research will show that the waterboarding to which you erroneously compare the American enhanced interrogation was in no way similar.

They filled stomachs with water, and then jumped on the victim.

Your claim is either slander or error....please advise which.


"What Americans need to understand is that under liberals' own "laws of war," they will invent apocryphal incidents from history in order to give aid and comfort to America's enemies and to undermine those who kept us safe for the past eight years."
Ann Coulter - May 6, 2009 - WATCHING MSNBC IS TORTURE

Where is the research?

The USA waterboarded 3 (three) muslim terrorist murderers. None of them suffered any permanent mental or physical harm.

The info obtained from them saved american lives---maybe yours.

waterboarding done by the USA to those three assholes was not torture. I am sure they did not enjoy it, but it was not torture.

You speak from experience?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Where is the research?

The USA waterboarded 3 (three) muslim terrorist murderers. None of them suffered any permanent mental or physical harm.

The info obtained from them saved american lives---maybe yours.

waterboarding done by the USA to those three assholes was not torture. I am sure they did not enjoy it, but it was not torture.

You speak from experience?

So....doing the research is beyond you?

...but one who experienced same would convince you?


1. Waterboarding is considered by many on the left to be torture only because it occurred during the hated Bush administration.

Had it occurred during the Obama administration it would be lauded as an "effective, non-lethal, humane information gathering technique".

2. The Japanese used to perform experimental operations on downed American pilots. They performed these operations without using any type of anesthesia. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....

3. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....agree. To be clear to everybody, what the Japanese were doing was like the Americans only in the sense that:
- folks were tied on a board
- there was water.

The basic Japanese approach was to force ingestion of large amounts of water, then beat your distended stomache, causing pain and rupture of organs.

It was not the mental panic approach that we call waterboarding today.

4. Thank you for pointing the difference between waterboarding we do and waterboarding done by the Japanese beucase its an entirely different animal, and thus is extremely disingenous to compare the two as if we do the same. Lets find ANY journalists or anyone making a comparison between our waterboarding and the Japanese actually subject themselves to waterboarding that including ruptured organs. Just for clarity's sake. Any takers? Anywhere?
.... the people in various organizations who submitted to waterboarding on camera and then said it was torture, how about submitting to Japanese water boarding and then tell us if they are identical or equal or even comparable.
We waterboard those attending SERE training, using the exact same techniques used against KSM, and its not torture when we do it in SERE training. Now to all those saying that the waterboarding is identical to that done by the Japanese, do you think we would ever submit our troops to Japanese style waterboarding? ie filling their bellies with water and then jumping on them and rupturing their organs? Doens't the fact that that would NEVER happen distinguish the two procedures based on that fact alone?

5. I was waterboarded at SERE, bamboo caged in stress positions, and slapped around.

Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

6. Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

HA! tell that to any new mother with a coliky baby. At least they didn't have to change shitty diapers and breast feed at the same time.

Reader comments at the following website:
Althouse: Americans think the Bush adminstration used torture.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The USA waterboarded 3 (three) muslim terrorist murderers. None of them suffered any permanent mental or physical harm.

The info obtained from them saved american lives---maybe yours.

waterboarding done by the USA to those three assholes was not torture. I am sure they did not enjoy it, but it was not torture.

You speak from experience?

So....doing the research is beyond you?

...but one who experienced same would convince you?


1. Waterboarding is considered by many on the left to be torture only because it occurred during the hated Bush administration.

Had it occurred during the Obama administration it would be lauded as an "effective, non-lethal, humane information gathering technique".

2. The Japanese used to perform experimental operations on downed American pilots. They performed these operations without using any type of anesthesia. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....

3. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....agree. To be clear to everybody, what the Japanese were doing was like the Americans only in the sense that:
- folks were tied on a board
- there was water.

The basic Japanese approach was to force ingestion of large amounts of water, then beat your distended stomache, causing pain and rupture of organs.

It was not the mental panic approach that we call waterboarding today.

4. Thank you for pointing the difference between waterboarding we do and waterboarding done by the Japanese beucase its an entirely different animal, and thus is extremely disingenous to compare the two as if we do the same. Lets find ANY journalists or anyone making a comparison between our waterboarding and the Japanese actually subject themselves to waterboarding that including ruptured organs. Just for clarity's sake. Any takers? Anywhere?
.... the people in various organizations who submitted to waterboarding on camera and then said it was torture, how about submitting to Japanese water boarding and then tell us if they are identical or equal or even comparable.
We waterboard those attending SERE training, using the exact same techniques used against KSM, and its not torture when we do it in SERE training. Now to all those saying that the waterboarding is identical to that done by the Japanese, do you think we would ever submit our troops to Japanese style waterboarding? ie filling their bellies with water and then jumping on them and rupturing their organs? Doens't the fact that that would NEVER happen distinguish the two procedures based on that fact alone?

5. I was waterboarded at SERE, bamboo caged in stress positions, and slapped around.

Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

6. Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

HA! tell that to any new mother with a coliky baby. At least they didn't have to change shitty diapers and breast feed at the same time.

Reader comments at the following website:
Althouse: Americans think the Bush adminstration used torture.

Usually when somebody makes a claim, it's up to them to back it up. It's generally seen as bad manners, or worse, to try the ol' "look it up yourself" routine. Regardless, what you posted here is not "research." It's a blog post. Not only that, I specifically mentioned the Spanish and the Germans, meaning the Nazis of course, not the Japanese, who are the subject of said blog post. All of that notwithstanding, that the Japanese added another aspect to the torture does not mean that waterboarding alone is not torture.

As for somebody experiencing it convincing me, yes and no. There are plenty of people who have experienced it who have no issue calling it torture, and there are others who say it isn't. I look at it like this, if somebody held me under water, drowning me, I would consider that torture and attempted murder. Waterboarding is essentially drowning people, without, hopefully, the intent to kill them. Drowning, for me, would be a form of torture. The worst form? Perhaps not, but torture nonetheless. When somebody is so emphatic in saying that it's not torture, however, I tend to wonder if they've ever experienced any form of drowning.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You speak from experience?

So....doing the research is beyond you?

...but one who experienced same would convince you?


1. Waterboarding is considered by many on the left to be torture only because it occurred during the hated Bush administration.

Had it occurred during the Obama administration it would be lauded as an "effective, non-lethal, humane information gathering technique".

2. The Japanese used to perform experimental operations on downed American pilots. They performed these operations without using any type of anesthesia. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....

3. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....agree. To be clear to everybody, what the Japanese were doing was like the Americans only in the sense that:
- folks were tied on a board
- there was water.

The basic Japanese approach was to force ingestion of large amounts of water, then beat your distended stomache, causing pain and rupture of organs.

It was not the mental panic approach that we call waterboarding today.

4. Thank you for pointing the difference between waterboarding we do and waterboarding done by the Japanese beucase its an entirely different animal, and thus is extremely disingenous to compare the two as if we do the same. Lets find ANY journalists or anyone making a comparison between our waterboarding and the Japanese actually subject themselves to waterboarding that including ruptured organs. Just for clarity's sake. Any takers? Anywhere?
.... the people in various organizations who submitted to waterboarding on camera and then said it was torture, how about submitting to Japanese water boarding and then tell us if they are identical or equal or even comparable.
We waterboard those attending SERE training, using the exact same techniques used against KSM, and its not torture when we do it in SERE training. Now to all those saying that the waterboarding is identical to that done by the Japanese, do you think we would ever submit our troops to Japanese style waterboarding? ie filling their bellies with water and then jumping on them and rupturing their organs? Doens't the fact that that would NEVER happen distinguish the two procedures based on that fact alone?

5. I was waterboarded at SERE, bamboo caged in stress positions, and slapped around.

Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

6. Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

HA! tell that to any new mother with a coliky baby. At least they didn't have to change shitty diapers and breast feed at the same time.

Reader comments at the following website:
Althouse: Americans think the Bush adminstration used torture.

Usually when somebody makes a claim, it's up to them to back it up. It's generally seen as bad manners, or worse, to try the ol' "look it up yourself" routine. Regardless, what you posted here is not "research." It's a blog post. Not only that, I specifically mentioned the Spanish and the Germans, meaning the Nazis of course, not the Japanese, who are the subject of said blog post. All of that notwithstanding, that the Japanese added another aspect to the torture does not mean that waterboarding alone is not torture.

As for somebody experiencing it convincing me, yes and no. There are plenty of people who have experienced it who have no issue calling it torture, and there are others who say it isn't. I look at it like this, if somebody held me under water, drowning me, I would consider that torture and attempted murder. Waterboarding is essentially drowning people, without, hopefully, the intent to kill them. Drowning, for me, would be a form of torture. The worst form? Perhaps not, but torture nonetheless. When somebody is so emphatic in saying that it's not torture, however, I tend to wonder if they've ever experienced any form of drowning.

1. I provided a link in post #98.

2. You conflated the American enhanced interrogation with Japanese version.
The link documented your error.

3. The comments from readers in my later post endorsed the view that there are no similarities outside the use of water.

4. " I specifically mentioned the Spanish and the Germans, meaning the Nazis of course, not the Japanese, who are the subject of said blog post."
You provided your opinion...sans links.

5. You know very well, nothing would convince you of admitting your error, your slander of the previous administration.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So....doing the research is beyond you?

...but one who experienced same would convince you?


1. Waterboarding is considered by many on the left to be torture only because it occurred during the hated Bush administration.

Had it occurred during the Obama administration it would be lauded as an "effective, non-lethal, humane information gathering technique".

2. The Japanese used to perform experimental operations on downed American pilots. They performed these operations without using any type of anesthesia. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....

3. When they waterboarded, they would cane the prisoner's belly while he was being waterboarded. This apparently increased the level of pain and panic exponentially. These are not--in kind or in degree--the same offenses that the Americans are charged with....agree. To be clear to everybody, what the Japanese were doing was like the Americans only in the sense that:
- folks were tied on a board
- there was water.

The basic Japanese approach was to force ingestion of large amounts of water, then beat your distended stomache, causing pain and rupture of organs.

It was not the mental panic approach that we call waterboarding today.

4. Thank you for pointing the difference between waterboarding we do and waterboarding done by the Japanese beucase its an entirely different animal, and thus is extremely disingenous to compare the two as if we do the same. Lets find ANY journalists or anyone making a comparison between our waterboarding and the Japanese actually subject themselves to waterboarding that including ruptured organs. Just for clarity's sake. Any takers? Anywhere?
.... the people in various organizations who submitted to waterboarding on camera and then said it was torture, how about submitting to Japanese water boarding and then tell us if they are identical or equal or even comparable.
We waterboard those attending SERE training, using the exact same techniques used against KSM, and its not torture when we do it in SERE training. Now to all those saying that the waterboarding is identical to that done by the Japanese, do you think we would ever submit our troops to Japanese style waterboarding? ie filling their bellies with water and then jumping on them and rupturing their organs? Doens't the fact that that would NEVER happen distinguish the two procedures based on that fact alone?

5. I was waterboarded at SERE, bamboo caged in stress positions, and slapped around.

Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

6. Survivors of Swamp Phase of Ranger school note that the hard part is 9 days of sleep deprivation therapy

HA! tell that to any new mother with a coliky baby. At least they didn't have to change shitty diapers and breast feed at the same time.

Reader comments at the following website:
Althouse: Americans think the Bush adminstration used torture.

Usually when somebody makes a claim, it's up to them to back it up. It's generally seen as bad manners, or worse, to try the ol' "look it up yourself" routine. Regardless, what you posted here is not "research." It's a blog post. Not only that, I specifically mentioned the Spanish and the Germans, meaning the Nazis of course, not the Japanese, who are the subject of said blog post. All of that notwithstanding, that the Japanese added another aspect to the torture does not mean that waterboarding alone is not torture.

As for somebody experiencing it convincing me, yes and no. There are plenty of people who have experienced it who have no issue calling it torture, and there are others who say it isn't. I look at it like this, if somebody held me under water, drowning me, I would consider that torture and attempted murder. Waterboarding is essentially drowning people, without, hopefully, the intent to kill them. Drowning, for me, would be a form of torture. The worst form? Perhaps not, but torture nonetheless. When somebody is so emphatic in saying that it's not torture, however, I tend to wonder if they've ever experienced any form of drowning.

1. I provided a link in post #98.

2. You conflated the American enhanced interrogation with Japanese version.
The link documented your error.

3. The comments from readers in my later post endorsed the view that there are no similarities outside the use of water.

4. " I specifically mentioned the Spanish and the Germans, meaning the Nazis of course, not the Japanese, who are the subject of said blog post."
You provided your opinion...sans links.

5. You know very well, nothing would convince you of admitting your error, your slander of the previous administration.

1. You provided a link to an op-ed by Ann Coulter. Not exactly the "research" you were discussing. I'll also repeat that just because Japan did something worse does not mean that waterboarding is not torture.

2. I, in fact, did not mention the Japanese at all, but rather the Spanish and Germans.

It was torture when the Spanish did it, and it was torture when the Germans did it. It's still torture when Americans do it.

3. Comments from readers is not research either.

4. You're correct. I did not provide links. You didn't ask for them. Instead, you went off about how there's a bunch of research proving me wrong, and then posted two opinion pieces about the Japanese.

5. I think you have me all wrong. While you're right that there's nothing that could change my mind regarding waterboarding being torture, even if I were proved wrong about the Spanish and Germans (which I still await), it wasn't merely slander of the previous administration. It also includes the current administration as well, who is just as guilty of torture as the last. Maybe more guilty since he hides it and exports it out to third-world countries.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Kudos to Kevin.

 

[NoNukes]

Now you ruined my whole day.

I try.

Yes, I generally find you very trying....

See how successful I am.

 

[Wildman]

some asshole wrote:

You just lost any moral authority you had.

PoliticalChic.., you have many of us patriots on your side, i pretty much said the same thing on another post in this forum, i agree with you.

LIARBERALS..., please pay attention.., find a brain, any brain will do simply because you have none of your own, a doctor like Dr. Gosnell may have removed your GOD given brain.

So "patriots" want to subvert the rule of law? Interesting.

the rule of law.., ooooh how fucking interesting, your fucking president knows nothing about the rule of law so why the hell should we, we are only following the masters lead.

 

[Locke11_21]

Those who espouse torture as official policy have crossed the line.

They do not hold American values of decency and honor.

Since they are not "American" in value, why talk to them? Simply ignore them.

This sounds like a description of those with leftist politics. They have been torturing the Constitution, our liberties the foundations of this country, our economy and employment. Leftists have no decency - any female, black, Latino, or Asian who doesn't have the letter "D" by their name finds that out real quick.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

some asshole wrote:


PoliticalChic.., you have many of us patriots on your side, i pretty much said the same thing on another post in this forum, i agree with you.

LIARBERALS..., please pay attention.., find a brain, any brain will do simply because you have none of your own, a doctor like Dr. Gosnell may have removed your GOD given brain.

So "patriots" want to subvert the rule of law? Interesting.

the rule of law.., ooooh how fucking interesting, your fucking president knows nothing about the rule of law so why the hell should we, we are only following the masters lead.

Who is "my" President?

 

[WillowTree]

how does the constitution protect non-citizen terrorist murderers? Did we read miranda to the japanese after pearl harbor? to the 9/11 murderers?

I hope he fires at the cops and they kill him.

I didn't realize "we" were at war with this kid.

his actions were a declaration of war on the USA, just like the japanese at pearl harbor or the muslims on 9/11.

get over the fact that he is a "kid". this kid murdered kids and blew the legs of of several innocent people. he is a murdering bastard and should be treated as such

I will never comprehend why liberals always feel sorry for the criminals and blame the victims.

It's easy to comprehend. Because they hate this country every bit as much as these two bit terrorists do. It's just that simple.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Kudos to Kevin.

As if this isn't the Kiss of Death....

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kudos to Kevin.

As if this isn't the Kiss of Death....

I don't follow.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Kudos to Kevin.

As if this isn't the Kiss of Death....

I don't follow.

Political Chic is admitting that you have won, Kevin_Kennedy.

It is good to see that you are an ethical libertarian, unlike some.

 

[PoliticalChic]

As if this isn't the Kiss of Death....

I don't follow.

Political Chic is admitting that you have won, Kevin_Kennedy.

It is good to see that you are an ethical libertarian, unlike some.

You know you're fibbing.

 

[asaratis]

I challenge you to give examples of torture in the above sense, use by the Bush administration.

Go ahead.

I don't have to use your example. I only need George Bush's own words: "A Lawyer said it was Legal so it was."

Being the President doesn't make it legal no matter what Nixon said.

I'll bet even George Bush doesn't know what specific methods were used, but he DOES know that torture WAS used.

Now let's get Bush and Obama in Court to defend themselves.

If you love America, it's Freedoms and the Constitution then you'll agree it's what needs to be done.

Redeem yourself PC.

There was no torture....as you have admitted by being unable to point to any.

Man up.

I want every member of his associations, his cell, rounded up before any more 8-year olds are killed, or any innocents lose their limbs.

Nor could I care less what that does to your sensibilities.


Oh...and one more thing: when found guilty, I want the death sentence carried out by blowing off his appendages.

Oh, I see...a nigh for a nigh!

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't follow.

Political Chic is admitting that you have won, Kevin_Kennedy.

It is good to see that you are an ethical libertarian, unlike some.

You know you're fibbing.

You know I am not fibbing. Kevin owned you on this discussion.

 

[Wry Catcher]

One news organization has reported that the second terrorist has been surrouonded.

I sure hope so.



Just yesterday, one of our resident hand-wringers posted that some group claimed Bush had used torture.

If they have this beast.....I fervently hope that every one of the so-called 'torture procedures' used by President Bush is used to track down every member of his cell-network of savages.



Recall this:
[Rep. Dan] Lungren [(R., CA) and the state's former attorney general] then switched gears to a line of questioning aimed at clarifying the Obama Justice Department’s definition of torture. In one of the rare times he gave a straight answer, Holder stated at the hearing that in his view waterboarding is torture. Lundgren asked if it was the Justice Department’s position that Navy SEALS subjected to waterboarding as part of their training were being tortured.

Holder: No, it’s not torture in the legal sense because you’re not doing it with the intention of harming these people physically or mentally, all we’re trying to do is train them —

Lungren: So it’s the question of intent?
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=117666&styleid=[b]2[/b]

Lungren is a wackadoodle, no wonder you find him sane.

 

[sfcalifornia]

No prob.....there was no torture.

It was torture when the Spanish did it, and it was torture when the Germans did it. It's still torture when Americans do it.

So.....which of the enhanced interrogation methods did your examples use?

"enhanced interrogation"..... Look at that, PC is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

 

[sfcalifornia]

So.....which of the enhanced interrogation methods did your examples use?

Waterboarding.

While the title was the same, research will show that the waterboarding to which you erroneously compare the American enhanced interrogation was in no way similar.

They filled stomachs with water, and then jumped on the victim.

Your claim is either slander or error....please advise which.


"What Americans need to understand is that under liberals' own "laws of war," they will invent apocryphal incidents from history in order to give aid and comfort to America's enemies and to undermine those who kept us safe for the past eight years."
Ann Coulter - May 6, 2009 - WATCHING MSNBC IS TORTURE

If the American version of waterboarding isn't torture, then why would they bother doing it all? Because it feels good??