Torture: physical or psychological

[nycflasher]

How does any of this equate to sawing off someones head on video? Oh yeah, I really don't condone maltreatment of prisoners either. But we are very rapidly approaching the point where you can only turn the other cheek so many times before your freaking jaw is broken. Does anyone remember the "abuse" our pilots took at the hands of the Iraqi military during 1991? As much as it may go against our sense of fair play, I am beginning to believe that lethal and long lasting reprisals may well be the best strategy. [/B]

That's the last fucking straw, Peg.
Do not quote something I said and then ask me how the events in Abu equate with chopping off someone's head.
I NEVER FUCKING SAID THEY DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry, but if there is one thing I can't stand it's people misquoting me.
And that's like the 10th time someone has asked me the same thing.


Do I need to start a thread explaining the fundamental differences between the disgraceful acts of SOME soldiers and the continued acts of horror and terrorism perpetrated against the world by radicals?
Is it that fucking complicated?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by nycflasher

Do I need to start a thread explaining the fundamental differences between the disgraceful acts of SOME soldiers and the continued acts of horror and terrorism perpetrated against the world by radicals?
Is it that fucking complicated?

You think that's bad, try explaining Christianity and islam.
:

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by NewGuy
You think that's bad, try explaining Christianity and islam.
:

No doubt.
I try to stay out of people's religion so long as they leave my spirituality the fuck alone.
I sometimes come down hard on the Catholic church, though; for all of the good the Church has done I can name alot of bad. But I don't expect someone to abandon their faith due to faults in leadership.

Likewise, you have to wonder what is wrong with the direction parts of the Islamic faith has taken. How it is happened and how it can be stopped, rather.

But I agree with you, NewGuy, I have a hard time talking to anyone about Islam these days because some people won't recognize that like all widespread religions it is sacred and fundamentally good.

The problem is people. Faith is only part of life. Actually living and conciously deciding not to murder people because it's not your nature is what makes you...human?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by nycflasher
No doubt.
I try to stay out of people's religion so long as they leave my spirituality the fuck alone.
I sometimes come down hard on the Catholic church, though; for all of the good the Church has done I can name alot of bad. But I don't expect someone to abandon their faith due to faults in leadership.

Likewise, you have to wonder what is wrong with the direction parts of the Islamic faith has taken. How it is happened and how it can be stopped, rather.

But I agree with you, NewGuy, I have a hard time talking to anyone about Islam these days because some people won't recognize that like all widespread religions it is sacred and fundamentally good.

The problem is people. Faith is only part of life. Actually living and conciously deciding not to murder people because it's not your nature is what makes you...human?

Ok....I will tiptoe around this as best I can.

I agree on the catholic church point, although I can go into further detail as to why it isn't even what it claims.

As far as islam, the koran speaks for its self. It is evil in its entire context.

We can all read something and change it ever so slightly into something good. Does that make the text good? -No. That makes our CHANGE with it into something good. -Or SEEMING good. If the text is a literal rule book, as the Bible and koran are, then you cannot change them and keep within their context or confines.

People ARE the problem, you are right. I do NOT agree however, that all religions or all people are inherintly good. In fact, I think all people by nature are savage egotistical lustful selfish greedy suckers that are lucky we are being given the right to breathe.

Our faith determines our desire to better ourselves to a goal, though. That faith drives us and becomes our core. Everything we do or believe branches outward like a tree from its roots. If one's faith is fundamentally about killing a group or robbing for gain, that is how a person will shape their views and actions. If this faith requires behaviors for salvation, those actions will be unstopable.

If a faith dictates peace and salvation by gift of grace, and not through works, you have a different situation. -One in which a person does what they do for the benefit of what is right, and the benefit of others (like God) and not themselves.

If you put any human in a situation of kill or be killed, we become savage.

If you put a person in a place of "Don't kill, you are saved anyway", you get something 100% different. This is what our nation was founded on- Our Christian heritage. We have definitely strayed, and the idea remains in limited nearly unrecognizable and corrupted form.

This is why I think America and the rest of the world have no clue about what is going on. Nobody knows right from wrong, who believes what, why anything happens, or anything because we aren't looking at what makes people do what they do. The answer is their core beliefs.

The answer: "religion".

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Ok....I will tiptoe around this as best I can.

I agree on the catholic church point, although I can go into further detail as to why it isn't even what it claims.

As far as islam, the koran speaks for its self. It is evil in its entire context.

We can all read something and change it ever so slightly into something good. Does that make the text good? -No. That makes our CHANGE with it into something good. -Or SEEMING good. If the text is a literal rule book, as the Bible and koran are, then you cannot change them and keep within their context or confines.

People ARE the problem, you are right. I do NOT agree however, that all religions or all people are inherintly good. In fact, I think all people by nature are savage egotistical lustful selfish greedy suckers that are lucky we are being given the right to breathe.

Our faith determines our desire to better ourselves to a goal, though. That faith drives us and becomes our core. Everything we do or believe branches outward like a tree from its roots. If one's faith is fundamentally about killing a group or robbing for gain, that is how a person will shape their views and actions. If this faith requires behaviors for salvation, those actions will be unstopable.

If a faith dictates peace and salvation by gift of grace, and not through works, you have a different situation. -One in which a person does what they do for the benefit of what is right, and the benefit of others (like God) and not themselves.

If you put any human in a situation of kill or be killed, we become savage.

If you put a person in a place of "Don't kill, you are saved anyway", you get something 100% different. This is what our nation was founded on- Our Christian heritage. We have definitely strayed, and the idea remains in limited nearly unrecognizable and corrupted form.

This is why I think America and the rest of the world have no clue about what is going on. Nobody knows right from wrong, who believes what, why anything happens, or anything because we aren't looking at what makes people do what they do. The answer is their core beliefs.

The answer: "religion".

Some people kill in the name of religion.
There are examples of radical sects with violent tendencies in most religions that I can think of.
Other people practice the same religion in the name of love and all that is good. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism...
Religion is fundamentally good, but can be used to control a people.

I could give a fuck about Islam, but I respect it as a Religion--no more, no less.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Religion is fundamentally good

-I understand your perspective on the other points, but how could you possibly think this?

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by NewGuy
-I understand your perspective on the other points, but how could you possibly think this?

Well, here's one definition of Religion(from dictionary.com):

\Re*li"gion\ (r[-e]*l[i^]j"[u^]n), n. [F., from L. religio; cf. religens pious, revering the gods, Gr. 'ale`gein to heed, have a care. Cf. Neglect.] 1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.


Sounds pretty decent to me. I guess there are religions that are evil, though.
I just don't think Islam is one of them.
CharlesMansonism...yes.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by nycflasher

Sounds pretty decent to me. I guess there are religions that are evil, though.
I just don't think Islam is one of them.
CharlesMansonism...yes.

Ok....that is kind of what I thought. I getcha now.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit No...hypnotics/hallucinogens, sleep deprivation, unexpected drenchings with cold water, interogators who are thoroughly familiar with the culture and language and other more sublte techniques have been shown to be far more effective than the random sadism demonstrated at Abu Gahraib.

Originally posted by nycflasher
Precisely. There is interogation tactics and then there is torture and sadism.

Originally posted by PEGwinn How does any of this equate to sawing off someones head on video? Oh yeah, I really don't condone maltreatment of prisoners either. But we are very rapidly approaching the point where you can only turn the other cheek so many times before your freaking jaw is broken. Does anyone remember the "abuse" our pilots took at the hands of the Iraqi military during 1991? As much as it may go against our sense of fair play, I am beginning to believe that lethal and long lasting reprisals may well be the best strategy.

Originally posted by nycflasher
That's the last fucking straw, Peg.
Do not quote something I said and then ask me how the events in Abu equate with chopping off someone's head.
I NEVER FUCKING SAID THEY DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry, but if there is one thing I can't stand it's people misquoting me.
And that's like the 10th time someone has asked me the same thing.


Do I need to start a thread explaining the fundamental differences between the disgraceful acts of SOME soldiers and the continued acts of horror and terrorism perpetrated against the world by radicals?
Is it that fucking complicated?

Item: You were not misquoted. Cut/paste is a wonderful thing.
Item: I was providing commentary which was in line with previous posts I made. Go ahead, scroll backwards, use the previous button, or maybe the search function. My point is that the rules have now changed in light of the sawing off of his head. Nowhere did I address you directly. Any pangs of guilt or feelings of persecution are your own.

 

[pegwinn]

15 keep reading slowly
14 one line per second
13 keep it up now
12 not much longer
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1

The number of seconds (approximately) that the victim screams in agony as his head is sawed from his body. Watching this video created an epiphany for me. I not only learned, I taught the classes on POW handling. I learned, believed in, and taught the law of land warfare classes. This video has now fundamentally changed my outlook on the war on terror and the liberation of Iraq. I now understand that the dogs are not signatory to the Geneva Accords. They do not respect and do not deserve the restrained treatment we accord them. The only thing they seem to understand is violence and death. Fine. I am now prepared to induce death and destruction until there are none left. As with any rabid animal, they need to die.