Torture: physical or psychological

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by insein
What i am merely saying is that, if your in the prison, you probably did something to get there.

Wait since when has anyone done anything to deserve prison? Its not their faults. their parents were mean.:

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Quite strong words. So mad you don't care about killing innocents.
Interesting. I wonder if there is an end to this eye for an eye shit.

Hi there nyc,
Lets make sure we understand my position here............

Step One: Go to church and thank God that GWB is in charge and not me. I have no problem with the concept of unrestricted warfare against Terrorists and those who support them.

Here's how to deal with:

Fallujah or other like incidents: Circle the town. Kill anything that tries to leave. Give them 12 hours to produce the killers. ON the 13th hour, bomb town for one hour. Repeat demand. Repeat Bombing until we get the killers, or there is no heat source larger than a dog on infrared.

Terrorist Ambush from a built up area on American forces: Withdrawal and begin bombardment from the Air or by Artillery. Reduce the area and then seed it with mines. The message to Terrorists is that "thou shalt not shoot at me. I will destroy you utterly." The message to locals is "thou shalt not allow terrorists to use your building, or you will lose it." Yes, this applies to any building, school, hospital, mosque etc. even if occupied.

Enemy Prisoners: If you don't give up information, I have no problem with letting you rot in a hog pen with nothing to eat but water and bacon. I will soak your brain with drugs. And if you try to escape, we will hunt you down, kill you, and bury you with hogs.

OBL and company: A bounty of 10 million in gold. I don't care whether the DNA verified body is brought in by the IRA, another Al Jazzy reporter, the Mafia, or the Marines. Dead is good, alive is better. No questions asked. Don't do the body double, or we will kill you.

Costs: My war, my oil. I will seize and sell the oil until the war cost is paid off. No contractors or other civilians allowed in a war zone (sorry mr vp).

Remember this, we are in a war. We owe it to ourselves and our troops to fight it with the cold will that won WW2. Personally, I'm not sure America has that stomach anymore as a nation to fully prosecute a conflict. In a few days I will probably calm down, and curse myself for it.

 

[Patriot]

Originally posted by SpidermanTuba
I don't think it takes a terrorism expert to know that abusing prisoners is wrong.



And police are experts on crime, I suppose we should just allow them to round everyone up who they think is a criminal, throw them in jail without bothering to inform their familiy, and then all say "Ahh, who cares, they're all criminals" when they get beaten.

Actually we should do that. The crime rate would go waaay down!

 

[pegwinn]

Go here

http://www.ogrish.com/ogrish-dot-com-american_beheading_in_iraq.wmv

Warning. This video shows an American citizen dying in unspeakable agony. This was not a clean cut execution. If you are not outraged by the end then you are either a bona-fide saint, or a traitor.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by pegwinn
Go here

http://www.ogrish.com/ogrish-dot-com-american_beheading_in_iraq.wmv

Warning. This video shows an American citizen dying in unspeakable agony. This was not a clean cut execution. If you are not outraged by the end then you are either a bona-fide saint, or a traitor.

Im outraged but i cant bring myself to watch it.

 

[Annie]

I did. Trust me, it's more than horrible. Does remind one of what the enemy is like. They need to know we are not just into self-flaggelation.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Originally posted by Patriot
Actually we should do that. The crime rate would go waaay down!

So you believe we should abolish the judiciary branch of the government, boy, you must be a real Patriot! Will you be the first to sign up on your block to round up undesirables?

 

[Patriot]

Originally posted by SpidermanTuba
So you believe we should abolish the judiciary branch of the government, boy, you must be a real Patriot! Will you be the first to sign up on your block to round up undesirables?

Why sure I would. In fact when I myself lived down in Arizona I was part of Sheriff Joes posse so I have a little experience in that area. I am sure Coconino county wouldnt mind Maricopa county trippin over its boundaries for little ol' you!

 

[KarlMarx]

I think it's time we beheaded the media and most of the Dems in Congress who have obviously been in a feeding frenzy the past few days.

And for what? In the interest of justice? No. So that they can pose in front of the cameras and act sanctimonious! Of course, acting sanctimonious is what Dems and libs do the best!

BTW regarding the comment on the inmates are guilty until they're proven innocent, don't lose sight of the fact that we are at war. Those inmates weren't in that prison for drunken driving, they are in there because they are suspected of carrying out or supporting hostilities against our troops.

 

[007]

Originally posted by pegwinn
Hi there nyc,
Lets make sure we understand my position here............

Step One: Go to church and thank God that GWB is in charge and not me. I have no problem with the concept of unrestricted warfare against Terrorists and those who support them.

Here's how to deal with:

Fallujah or other like incidents: Circle the town. Kill anything that tries to leave. Give them 12 hours to produce the killers. ON the 13th hour, bomb town for one hour. Repeat demand. Repeat Bombing until we get the killers, or there is no heat source larger than a dog on infrared.

Terrorist Ambush from a built up area on American forces: Withdrawal and begin bombardment from the Air or by Artillery. Reduce the area and then seed it with mines. The message to Terrorists is that "thou shalt not shoot at me. I will destroy you utterly." The message to locals is "thou shalt not allow terrorists to use your building, or you will lose it." Yes, this applies to any building, school, hospital, mosque etc. even if occupied.

Enemy Prisoners: If you don't give up information, I have no problem with letting you rot in a hog pen with nothing to eat but water and bacon. I will soak your brain with drugs. And if you try to escape, we will hunt you down, kill you, and bury you with hogs.

OBL and company: A bounty of 10 million in gold. I don't care whether the DNA verified body is brought in by the IRA, another Al Jazzy reporter, the Mafia, or the Marines. Dead is good, alive is better. No questions asked. Don't do the body double, or we will kill you.

Costs: My war, my oil. I will seize and sell the oil until the war cost is paid off. No contractors or other civilians allowed in a war zone (sorry mr vp).

Remember this, we are in a war. We owe it to ourselves and our troops to fight it with the cold will that won WW2. Personally, I'm not sure America has that stomach anymore as a nation to fully prosecute a conflict. In a few days I will probably calm down, and curse myself for it.

PEGWINN FOR PRESIDENT!

PEGWINN FOR PRESIDENT!

PEGWINN FOR PRESIDENT!

I'm with ya man! I couldn't agree with you more about what you just said.

I just watched that video. We need to do just exactly what you said above. The sooner the better.

One idea I put in another thread was round up the known good people who want a free Iraq and put them out of harms way, and then carpet bomb the rest. KILL THEM ALL!!

 

[Doc Holiday]

Pegwinn,
The only disagreement I have is, Don't even let the dogs live.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Hold Fast, Idealists
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

Published: May 12, 2004


WASHINGTON — Last month, the angry charge at the 9/11 commission was that our intelligence was weak and ineffective. That was because the terrorists were at war and we were not. This month, with the U.S. at war with terror, the angry charge is that our intelligence was cruelly un-American.

Last month, Democrats joined a book-promoting author to try to place the blame for failing to stop Al Qaeda's attacks on an unconcerned President Bush and the bumbling heads of the C.I.A. and F.B.I.

This month, Democrats led by Michigan Senator Carl Levin are imputing blame for the pornographic sadism of a dozen guards and interrogators to a chain of command on up to Donald Rumsfeld and Bush. The abuses, Levin charged, were "clearly planned and suggested by others."

Clearly? That was not the subsequent testimony of Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, emerging as a genuine hero in this sordid mess. Assigned by top commanders to investigate, he did his job without fear or favor. No other military anywhere would permit such searing self-examination.

Taguba said, "A few soldiers and civilians conspired to abuse. . . ." But the names Taguba's report named were not important enough for those who want to use this scandal to justify their opposition to this war until the nation wearies of the conflict and the Bush administration can be ousted.

Those of us who believe in the nobility of exporting freedom cannot trivialize the scandal. But we need not let our dismay at the predations of some self-photographing creeps overwhelm the morally sound purpose of our antiterror campaign. Nor should the dereliction of some officers detract from the brave and upright service of almost all our warriors.

Though polls show that most Americans understand this, the atmosphere in the BosNyWash corridor is that of panic. Even some of my hard-line brethren are urging that we throw a few leaders off the sled to palliate the pack in pursuit; others offer an emergency exit strategy that is "cut and walk fast."

That strikes me as the essence of the "Democracy Now" notion of The Weekly Standard. Its editors want to short-circuit the present schedule of an interim government appointed June 30 to arrange elections early next year. Instead, they propose elections this September with a big increase in U.S. troops, presumably to prevent terrorist electioneering near the polls, accompanied by French and German troops who would be induced to serve "to support elections."

Nice peace if you can get it. To return to the real world: we and the Brits and the U.N. and Iraqi leaders are working out a plan now that offers a fair chance of a transition to full sovereignty with elections next year and without civil war. The concurrent buildup of a multiethnic police force would be followed by the coalition's orderly withdrawal. That's doable.

The U.N. envoy at first floated out a trial balloon of an interim regime of nonentities forswearing all ambition. He is now busily revising that in consultation with Iraqi power brokers. As the local pols get a piece of the transition action, they — with assorted technocrats — will have a stake in the election process and should help our troops there protect an election.

But won't the Iraqi people be driven crazy by pictures from Abu Ghraib prison and embrace the pro-Saddam terrorists? My Kurdish friends say that's nonsense. They remember the 5,000 innocents Saddam gassed to death in Halabja — nor have the Shiites forgotten his mass graves. Many Iraqis may be resentful of the current American protection, but most are not sore enough to wish us gone yet, or to submit again to Sunni rule.

Lost in the fixation on our self-condemnation is what may be a turning point in Najaf, the holy Shiite city. The hate-filled junior cleric leading his private militia against us is not only taking casualties from American soldiers, but is also facing vocal opposition from residents who want him to take his troublemakers out of town.

That means that Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who has recently seen Kurdish leaders, recognizes the challenge to his leadership of the Shiites. It may also lead to a recognition of minority rights by the majority in a rudimentary democracy in tomorrow's Iraq.

Pessimism may be in the saddle today, but hope for Iraqi freedom is in the wings. Wait and see.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Damned if we do, damned if we don't

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Is it wrong or right?

It is wrong...Not only from a moral standpoint, but also from an intelligence standpoint.

Morally, it is the cause of needless suffering to guilty and innocent alike. To have engaged in such activities has brought the Administration down to the same level as the terrorists, and we cannot win on that level. We must take, and hold the moral high ground. Abu Ghraib has robbed the Bush administration of that. And the damage may well be irreparable. Contrary to the senator who voiced his "...outrage at the outrage...", 90% of the prisoners were mistakenly taken into custody, according to the ICRC. No one, especially those innocents incarcerated, deserves such treatment.

From an intelligence standpoint, torture seldom produces any useable results. In order to avoid further suffering, the victim will tell his torturers whatever they want to hear, whether it is true or not. Torture is simply not a reliable tool for intelligence gathering.

 

[cptpwichita]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
It is wrong...Not only from a moral standpoint, but also from an intelligence standpoint.

Morally, it is the cause of needless suffering to guilty and innocent alike. To have engaged in such activities has brought the Administration down to the same level as the terrorists, and we cannot win on that level. We must take, and hold the moral high ground. Abu Ghraib has robbed the Bush administration of that. And the damage may well be irreparable. Contrary to the senator who voiced his "...outrage at the outrage...", 90% of the prisoners were mistakenly taken into custody, according to the ICRC. No one, especially those innocents incarcerated, deserves such treatment.

From an intelligence standpoint, torture seldom produces any useable results. In order to avoid further suffering, the victim will tell his torturers whatever they want to hear, whether it is true or not. Torture is simply not a reliable tool for intelligence gathering.

So what means should be used to extract information critical to our national security?Maybe we should get them all legal representation from the ACLU.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by cptpwichita
So what means should be used to extract information critical to our national security?Maybe we should get them all legal representation from the ACLU.

No...hypnotics/hallucinogens, sleep deprivation, unexpected drenchings with cold water, interogators who are thoroughly familiar with the culture and language and other more sublte techniques have been shown to be far more effective than the random sadism demonstrated at Abu Gahraib.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
Punish all of them for the acts of a few, right?

So when are you getting your glow stick in the ass then?

I'm sure they'd prefer the glowstick to pig guts, so it's not so bad. I think that it's time for the gloves to come off and we should show them what the US at war can really do. It's time to go back to the days of World War II where we dropped atomic bombs in order to save American lives. And since this whole war is about saving American lives, let's do what we have to do.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
No...hypnotics/hallucinogens, sleep deprivation, unexpected drenchings with cold water, interogators who are thoroughly familiar with the culture and language and other more sublte techniques have been shown to be far more effective than the random sadism demonstrated at Abu Gahraib.

Precisely. There is interogation tactics and then there is torture and sadism.

 

[pegwinn]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bullypulpit
No...hypnotics/hallucinogens, sleep deprivation, unexpected drenchings with cold water, interogators who are thoroughly familiar with the culture and language and other more sublte techniques have been shown to be far more effective than the random sadism demonstrated at Abu Gahraib.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by nycflasher
Precisely. There is interogation tactics and then there is torture and sadism.

How does any of this equate to sawing off someones head on video? Oh yeah, I really don't condone maltreatment of prisoners either. But we are very rapidly approaching the point where you can only turn the other cheek so many times before your freaking jaw is broken. Does anyone remember the "abuse" our pilots took at the hands of the Iraqi military during 1991? As much as it may go against our sense of fair play, I am beginning to believe that lethal and long lasting reprisals may well be the best strategy.

 

[Doc Holiday]

What about the British guys tortured by the Saudis after a bombing there? Or, all of the guys that Saddam tortured?