They can kiss my ass

[ScreamingEagle]

Our nation was based on many things including slavery and land-grabbing and denying voting rights to women.

That is exactly what our idiot liberal schools are teaching our kids today...that America is bad. So we aren't perfect...is any country? At least our American system allows for change for the better, doesn't it? America should be super proud of its heritage.

In fact, it is time our schools start requiring that all students take and pass a thorough and patriotic course in American history before graduating.

Okay. I think that I understand your position and I think that you understand my position. We simply agree to disagree. Your mind is contaminated with conservative influences and biases.

Which is good.

No. I’m mistaken. I do not think that you understand my position though I think that I explained it very clearly. I believe in consistency. If teacher-led Christian influences should be removed from public schools then teacher-led Wiccan influences should be removed too. 95% Americans can continue to celebrate Christmas – on their own. We should either have all sorts of religious influences or all religious influences should be removed from public schools. I think that schools should not favor any one particular religious custom over another. I see no compelling need to impose any one religious custom upon anyone.

Your "consistency" position is based upon making minority religions of equal importance to our traditional American culture - they are not.

It is not the ACLU’s goal to remove Christianity from America. In many cases it defends Christians and their right to speak about their beliefs and even to distribute literature. Our country will continue to be Christian – meaning that most people are Christian – even if Christian prayers and displays are removed from government property and buildings. Yes. I understand your perspective. According to you, when it comes to religious influence in public schools – popularity makes one religion count to the exclusion of all others. I consider that to be an unfair double standard. Oh well. We agree to disagree about what is best for America and America’s public school students.

If stamping out Christian heritage from our culture is not the goal of the ACLU, then why is it leading the charge to stamp out Christian heritage from our culture?

I knew you would cry the typical liberal accusation of "unfair double standard". Too bad. The American majority has tolerated minorities...it's about time the minorities stop being intolerant of the majority. We are a Christian nation and that's the way America has been historically and it's the way most of us Americans want it to continue to be. Christians are primarily what have made this country great---not atheists or wiccans or muslims or hindus or secular humanists.

 

[mattskramer]

That is exactly what our idiot liberal schools are teaching our kids today...that America is bad. So we aren't perfect...is any country? At least our American system allows for change for the better, doesn't it? America should be super proud of its heritage.

In fact, it is time our schools start requiring that all students take and pass a thorough and patriotic course in American history before graduating.

I doubt that public schools are teaching that America is bad. They are pointing out some bad events in American history - events that may have been glossed over in previous decades. Yet, that is far from concluding that America is bad. I think that America is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) nations on the world.

I don’t think that students should be required to take a patriotic course in American history but they should take a general balanced course in American history.

Your "consistency" position is based upon making minority religions of equal importance to our traditional American culture - they are not.

I disagree and I’ll further explain my perspective: To educate students and avoid proselytizing to students, other religions are of equal importance. All religions should be given equal respectful treatment or no religious custom should be recognized.

To put one religious custom or tradition above another in public school is akin to advocating one religion above another for children. If teachers and school administrators are going to lead students in recognizing Jesus at Christmas time then it is appropriate for them to recognize Mohamed on special Islamic days. For the sake of educating students, I have no objection to telling students that our founding fathers were Christian (provided that such is the statistical truth) but such information belongs in an American history class.

If stamping out Christian heritage from our culture is not the goal of the ACLU, then why is it leading the charge to stamp out Christian heritage from our culture?

The ACLU is not leading the charge to “stamp out Christian heritage from our culture”. The 95% of Americans are still free to teach their children about Christ. Christian churches will continue to have open doors. The fundamental thing that the ACLU is leading the charge on is defending and promoting civil liberties – for Christians and non-Christians alike.

I knew you would cry the typical liberal accusation of "unfair double standard". Too bad. The American majority has tolerated minorities...it's about time the minorities stop being intolerant of the majority. We are a Christian nation and that's the way America has been historically and it's the way most of us Americans want it to continue to be. Christians are primarily what have made this country great---not atheists or wiccans or muslims or hindus or secular humanists.

I knew that you would cry the typical religious right mantra of “Christianity is more popular so get out of our way”. Too bad. Followers of less popular religions have been sidelined for decades. While a little bit of progress has been made since the Salem Witch Trials, there is still much to do. America is a Christian nation in the sense that most Americans are Christians. Just because something is popular does not make it right or wrong. America might have had a “Christian history”. Just because something has a historical element does not mean that it should continue to have a historical element. First of all, if Christians are primarily what made this Country great, it is likely due to the probability that most people were Christians. Wiccans or Muslims or Hindus or witches did not do much for America because there were not many people of that religion in America. Some people who had unpopular religious practices or behaviors probably had been executed (Read about the "Salem Witch Trials" and raids on Indian camps). Getting back to Christians, were the slaves Christian? Were the slave owners Christians? Were those who proceeded to take land from the “natives” Christian? Were those who executed “witches” Christian? I have a second point. Good or bad actions - not necessarily philosophies – are the ultimate things that have made this country what it is.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I doubt that public schools are teaching that America is bad. They are pointing out some bad events in American history - events that may have been glossed over in previous decades. Yet, that is far from concluding that America is bad. I think that America is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) nations on the world.

Stop doubting. Today's Liberalism is anti-American in nature. Liberalism is rampant in our universities. Follow liberal teaching majors right into our classrooms…liberal attitudes are passed right along to our kids via liberal teachers.

I don’t think that students should be required to take a patriotic course in American history but they should take a general balanced course in American history.

Of course you don't. You are an unpatriotic liberal. What makes you think children should learn our history from a "critical" standpoint? It's enough that they first learn the basics! (Which they are not learning today.)

I disagree and I’ll further explain my perspective: To educate students and avoid proselytizing to students, other religions are of equal importance. All religions should be given equal respectful treatment or no religious custom should be recognized

Who said anything about preselytizing? That's means an attempt to convert someone.
And, no, other religions are NOT of equal importance….Christianity has a prominant place in the history of our country.

People with other religious beliefs should be respected of course, but the majority is under no obligation enjoin the customs of minority religions - just as a person with a minority religion is under no obligation to enjoin in the customs of Christian religion.

To put one religious custom or tradition above another in public school is akin to advocating one religion above another for children. If teachers and school administrators are going to lead students in recognizing Jesus at Christmas time then it is appropriate for them to recognize Mohamed on special Islamic days. For the sake of educating students, I have no objection to telling students that our founding fathers were Christian (provided that such is the statistical truth) but such information belongs in an American history class.

Giving the Christian religion recognition is absolutely necessary to both teach our children the heritage of our country and also to teach the customs of our Christian country. Christmas is a recognized national holiday. Muslim traditions and customs have no recognizable part in our American heritage. There is no need to for the teachers to recognize Mohammed on special Islamic days. That's nothing more than liberal multiculturalism BS.

The ACLU is not leading the charge to “stamp out Christian heritage from our culture”. The 95% of Americans are still free to teach their children about Christ. Christian churches will continue to have open doors. The fundamental thing that the ACLU is leading the charge on is defending and promoting civil liberties – for Christians and non-Christians alike.

You are so wrong. The ACLU is doing everything it can to erase any reference to Christianity from the public square. It has nothing to do with civil liberties….it has everything to do with religious suppression…all in the name of imaginary "civil liberties" of atheists and secularists or minority religions who suddenly feel "oppressed" by the prescence of Christian religious references in a courthouse, schoolhouse, government building, graveyard, or other public areas.

I knew that you would cry the typical religious right mantra of “Christianity is more popular so get out of our way”. Too bad. Followers of less popular religions have been sidelined for decades. While a little bit of progress has been made since the Salem Witch Trials, there is still much to do. America is a Christian nation in the sense that most Americans are Christians. Just because something is popular does not make it right or wrong. America might have had a “Christian history”. Just because something has a historical element does not mean that it should continue to have a historical element. First of all, if Christians are primarily what made this Country great, it is likely due to the probability that most people were Christians. Wiccans or Muslims or Hindus or witches did not do much for America because there were not many people of that religion in America. Some people who had unpopular religious practices or behaviors probably had been executed (Read about the "Salem Witch Trials" and raids on Indian camps). Getting back to Christians, were the slaves Christian? Were the slave owners Christians? Were those who proceeded to take land from the “natives” Christian? Were those who executed “witches” Christian? I have a second point. Good or bad actions - not necessarily philosophies – are the ultimate things that have made this country what it is.

Christianity is the main religious force that affected the founding and development of our country. Our Declaration and the Bible overlap each other in some ways. Christianity has its unique place in our history and deserves the all the recognition it gets - which is really not all that much these days. Just look at the way you attack it, for example. You are not suggesting that we forget our history and our traditions, are you? Do you also want to give in to those who wish to drive God entirely out of our public life?

 

[Vintij]

Stop doubting. Today's Liberalism is anti-American in nature. Liberalism is rampant in our universities. Follow liberal teaching majors right into our classrooms…liberal attitudes are passed right along to our kids via liberal teachers.


Of course you don't. You are an unpatriotic liberal. What makes you think children should learn our history from a "critical" standpoint? It's enough that they first learn the basics! (Which they are not learning today.)



Who said anything about preselytizing? That's means an attempt to convert someone.
And, no, other religions are NOT of equal importance….Christianity has a prominant place in the history of our country.

People with other religious beliefs should be respected of course, but the majority is under no obligation enjoin the customs of minority religions - just as a person with a minority religion is under no obligation to enjoin in the customs of Christian religion.



Giving the Christian religion recognition is absolutely necessary to both teach our children the heritage of our country and also to teach the customs of our Christian country. Christmas is a recognized national holiday. Muslim traditions and customs have no recognizable part in our American heritage. There is no need to for the teachers to recognize Mohammed on special Islamic days. That's nothing more than liberal multiculturalism BS.


You are so wrong. The ACLU is doing everything it can to erase any reference to Christianity from the public square. It has nothing to do with civil liberties….it has everything to do with religious suppression…all in the name of imaginary "civil liberties" of atheists and secularists or minority religions who suddenly feel "oppressed" by the prescence of Christian religious references in a courthouse, schoolhouse, government building, graveyard, or other public areas.


Christianity is the main religious force that affected the founding and development of our country. Our Declaration and the Bible overlap each other in some ways. Christianity has its unique place in our history and deserves the all the recognition it gets - which is really not all that much these days. Just look at the way you attack it, for example. You are not suggesting that we forget our history and our traditions, are you? Do you also want to give in to those who wish to drive God entirely out of our public life?

Our declaration and the bible overlap eachother? What declaration are you reading? That might be the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

Thomas Jefferson was a secularist

Benjamin Franklin was a secularist

John adams was a secularist

Linconl and washington were both christian secularists

Nearly every single founding father did not want religion in politics and made sure that it was not in the declaration, or the constituion.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Mattskramer said

Okay. I think that I understand your position and I think that you understand my position. We simply agree to disagree. Your mind is contaminated with conservative influences and biases.

So now Conservatives are diseased? Conservative beliefs are some form of sickness?

 

[mattskramer]

So now Conservatives are diseased? Conservative beliefs are some form of sickness?

I’m just trying to be consistent with Screaming Eagle. I remember the title of a book called “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder”. I burst out laughing when a saw that title. Liberalism is no more a mental disorder than is Conservatism. Liberalism and Conservatism are merely extreme points on the political spectrum with moderates being the middle of that spectrum. To the same extent that someone can have a liberal-contaminated mind (See post number 79.) someone can have a conservative-contaminated mind.

 

[mattskramer]

Today's Liberalism is anti-American in nature. Liberalism is rampant in our universities. Follow liberal teaching majors right into our classrooms…liberal attitudes are passed right along to our kids via liberal teachers.

Liberals are no more anti-American than are Conservatives. They simply have different ideas about what would be better for America. If I choose a different diet for myself does that mean that I dislike myself? No. Follow conservative teaching majors right into our classrooms…conservative attitudes are passed right along to our kids via conservative teachers.

You are an unpatriotic liberal. What makes you think children should learn our history from a "critical" standpoint? It's enough that they first learn the basics! (Which they are not learning today.)

I hold to the conservative side on some issues and to the liberal side on some issues. I don’t know if I am patriotic or not. It depends on your definition of the term. I think that the USA is a great country and I would defend it if it were ever really attacked by a foreign military. Yet, I readily see and admit to the facts that there are some things bad about America and its past. I don’t think that American children should be brainwashed into thinking that America is flawless and perfect. Do you think children in the days of the USSR should have been brainwashed into thinking that it was practically flawless?

If children are not learning the basics, then perhaps less time should be spent with teacher-led prayer and pledges. More time should be spent learning math, English, and science.

Who said anything about proselytizing? People with other religious beliefs should be respected of course, but the majority is under no obligation enjoin the customs of minority religions - just as a person with a minority religion is under no obligation to enjoin in the customs of Christian religion.

When teacher lead impressionable young kids in praying through Jesus they are practically proselytizing. It is as if the teacher says “Why don’t you believe in this “Jesus” since we are praying through him." We seem to be repeating ourselves. I explained that by your standards, if the only option available for non-Christians is to opt out of Christian customs while Christians are allowed to challenge the actual activates that conflict with their customs, the minority is under unequal pressure to enjoin in Christian customs than are Christians under pressure to enjoin non-Christian customs.

Giving the Christian religion recognition is absolutely necessary to both teach our children the heritage of our country and also to teach the customs of our Christian country. Christmas is a recognized national holiday. Muslim traditions and customs have no recognizable part in our American heritage. There is no need to for the teachers to recognize Mohammed on special Islamic days. That's nothing more than liberal multiculturalism BS.

I said that I have no objection to teaching the fact that, for good or bad, Christianity played a part in the development of America. This should be done in a history class. It should be noted that there were few people of other religions, so I grant you that Muslim traditions and customs have no recognizable part in American heritage. That does not mean that Children should not be taught about other religions (if they are going to be taught and encouraged to participate in Christian customs in school).

You are so wrong. The ACLU is doing everything it can to erase any reference to Christianity from the public square. It has nothing to do with civil liberties….it has everything to do with religious suppression…all in the name of imaginary "civil liberties" of atheists and secularists or minority religions who suddenly feel "oppressed" by the prescence of Christian religious references in a courthouse, schoolhouse, government building, graveyard, or other public areas.

http://www.aclu.org/religion/tencomm/index.html

The ACLU has long defended individuals, families, and religious communities who wish to manifest their religion in public. Particularly when compared to other industrialized democracies, religion plays a prominent role in American public life. Churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, cathedrals, and Gurdwaras are plainly visible in the public sphere and their right to display religious symbols and to construct religious edifices is protected by the Constitution and by statutes.

Christianity is the main religious force that affected the founding and development of our country. Our Declaration and the Bible overlap each other in some ways. Christianity has its unique place in our history and deserves the all the recognition it gets - which is really not all that much these days. Just look at the way you attack it, for example. You are not suggesting that we forget our history and our traditions, are you? Do you also want to give in to those who wish to drive God entirely out of our public life?

Christianity has a place in American history. Look back at my previous posts on this thread. I am not suggesting that we forget our history and traditions. See what I typed toward the bottom of post number 82. For the sake of educating students, I have no objection to telling students that our founding fathers were Christian (provided that such is the statistical truth) but such information belongs in an American history class. No. I do not want to give in to those who wish to drive God entirely out of our public life. The ACLU is not trying to do this. (See the link I posted.) I know of no major organization trying to do this.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Our declaration and the bible overlap eachother? What declaration are you reading? That might be the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

Thomas Jefferson was a secularist

Benjamin Franklin was a secularist

John adams was a secularist

Linconl and washington were both christian secularists

Nearly every single founding father did not want religion in politics and made sure that it was not in the declaration, or the constituion.

I agree with you of course that our founders wanted a secular government in which no particular religion could be established. They did not mean, however, that religious expression must be suppressed. It also did not mean that the truths of our Declaration are not similar to the truths found in the Bible and that we should hide them. To answer both your post as well as mattskramer's I'd like to post here part of a speech by Newt Gingrich where he explained this relationship:

To be sure, the Truth of the Bible is not identical with the truths of the Declaration. But the two orders of truth do overlap, and where they overlap, they powerfully reinforce each other. Indeed, the Declaration assumes many of the central teachings of the Bible.

When our Declaration asserts “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”, it makes some key assumptions.

It assumes that God is sovereign over the universe.

It assumes that God created man.

And it assumes that man must obey an order of justice which God Himself has instituted.

That order of justice requires all men to honor each other's natural rights, because these rights are the unalienable endowment of the Almighty. When someone violates the rights of another they are not merely breaking the law. They are violating God’s grant of protection. These are the truths of the Declaration of Independence, and they reflect the Truth of the Bible.

They are truths to which we must bear witness. They are the lamps which we must keep alight before our neighbors and before the world. These are the lamps which must be kept upon their stands.

We have relied upon these truths in our times of crisis; they have been the lights that guided us through our darkest hours.

In one of America’s most difficult periods, as the nation plunged headlong towards civil war, Abraham Lincoln recalled the basic assertion of the Declaration, that "nothing stamped with the Divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on, and degraded, and imbruted by its fellows."

82 years later, while the flames of war spread across Europe and the Pacific, President Franklin D. Roosevelt wrote "Our modern democratic way of life has its deepest roots in our great common religious tradition, which for ages past has taught to civilized mankind the dignity of the human being, his equality before God, and his responsibility in the making of a better and fairer world."

FDR, the greatest Democratic President of the 20th century, believed in good and evil and believed his generation faced a war between Christianity and paganism.

President Roosevelt understood how hard it can be to defeat evil. On D-Day, the 6th of June, 1944 as hundreds of thousands of young Americans risked their lives to defeat evil, FDR went on national radio to lead the nation in prayer.

He said these words in prayer and I take the time to recite them in their entirety today and invite all of you to listen in prayerful reflection as we consider our own young Americans – our sons and daughters, our neighbors in harm’s way around the world. Listen how FDR spoke of the Greatest Generation as it launched its mightiest battle:

My Fellow Americans:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen.

Since our schools so often fail to teach the full nature of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, it would be in the spirit of Dr. Falwell’s lifetime work to ask that every radio station on June 6, D-Day, play the full national radio prayer of FDR and remind Americans that we can be united in the face of evil, we can seek God’s guidance for America, we can support our young men and women in uniform who risk their lives, and we can be determined to defeat evil.

That project would be a living extension of Jerry Falwell’s commitment to ensure that all Americans understood that we are a nation founded and sustained by our Creator.
FDR knew this truth, as did Lincoln and Washington before him.

In our hours of desperation, both as individuals and as a country we return to our founding truths, time and again.

Even today, these truths continue to sustain and guide us. In this age we face the irreconcilable wing of Islam, an enemy who does not believe that God created all men equal by right. According to their evil ideology, the Islamist believes that justice is only owed to fellow Islamists—while the rest of humanity (even fellow Muslims) have no rights.

The American believes that all men and women —all—have equal rights, because that is the will of the Almighty and it is God that endows them. Indeed, we believe that no person stamped in the Divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on, degraded, and imbruted by its fellows.

Just as with the Nazis and the Communists, darkness is again falling across the earth, and it is again the calling of America to light her moral lamps, and place them out, for all the nations to see.

Today, however, we face an additional difficulty. We are accustomed to having the truths of the Declaration challenged from without.

But what is new, is that for the first time in our history, those truths are now being challenged from within. A growing culture of radical secularism declares that the nation cannot publicly profess the truths on which it was founded. We are told that our public schools cannot invoke the Creator, nor proclaim the natural law, nor profess the God-given equality of human rights.

In hostility to American history, the radical secularist insists that religious belief is inherently divisive, and that public debate can only proceed on secular terms when religious belief is excluded.

In this contorted logic, the public square becomes more welcoming to the extent that it strips away and banishes all religious symbols and language.

Unfortunately, these false principles of secular absolutism have deeply penetrated the legal establishment. It is called upon to justify all sorts of judicial destruction. In New Jersey, school officials prevented a student from reading to the class his favorite story, because it came from the Bible. In Pennsylvania, a teacher's assistant was suspended because she wore a necklace with a cross. And in California, the nation's most persistent secularist has renewed his crusade to strike the words "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

To his great credit, Dr. Falwell decided to step forward publicly and counter the outrageous intolerance of the secular absolutists. This was a difficult decision. Early in his ministry, Dr. Falwell was reluctant to be involved with politics. But he changed his mind. He later explained that “I never thought the government would go so far afield…I misjudged the quality of government we have.”

Jerry Falwell’s heart "was burning to serve Christ” in this way. And because of his courage, America is not the same.

When Ronald Reagan spoke of a shining city on a hill, we know it was the servant leaders of God, and God’s people whom they served, who were among the brightest beacons, not only here on Liberty mountain but across the land.

Look around you and you know that they shine brightly today.

Drawing strength from this institution and others like it, and most especially from the life example of Dr. Jerry Falwell and other servant leaders, they will shine still brighter tomorrow.

Jerry Falwell understood that the relentless efforts to drive God from public life would inevitably affect our respect for life itself. It would pressure believers to hide their lamps beneath a bushel. Jerry refused. He would not be passive. He would not be ashamed. He would not be cowed. Instead, he would bear witness. And he would act on those convictions.

And he was absolutely correct to do so. For three reasons.

First of all, because basic fairness demands that religious believers deserve a chance to be heard. This is a democracy. We are supposed to invite all persons and all parties to the public debate. It is wrong to single out those who believe in God for discrimination. Yet today it is impossible to miss the discrimination against religious believers.

We often hear the need to celebrate free secular and artistic expression—but rarely for religious expression.

Too often, the courts have been biased against religious believers. This anti-religious bias must end.

Second, we would all benefit from reflecting on the wisdom of the Founding Fathers. The Founders considered religion a great benefit to society. They had a very straightforward belief that the purpose of government was the protection of liberty, and that the maintenance of liberty inevitably required virtue among its citizens. The “pursuit of Happiness” was actually a Scottish enlightenment phrase meaning virtue and wisdom.

And if virtue was to survive in the American experiment, it would require “true religion”, which was that religion which cultivates the virtues necessary to the protection of liberty.

Implicit within this vision of the Founding Fathers is a pluralistic sensibility. Any true religion would be therefore deserving of the respect of the government, which would include the freedom to express in public the moral principles of such a true religion.

Constitutional self-government requires personal self-government; the more the government can rely on its citizens, the less it will need to govern them because they will govern themselves.

This belief that religion was an indispensable support of republican government was to be found throughout the founding generation.

Its strongest and clearest statement is to be found in George Washington's "Farewell Address". He said:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.

Washington's words are as true today as they were 210 years ago.

We must recognize that the benefits of these indispensable supports cited by Washington accrue to Americans not just of one particular faith, but of all faiths, and all people of goodwill, religious or not. Washington and the other Founding Fathers feared that the weakening of these religious supports would undermine the very republican institutions under which all Americans find their liberties.

It is in this tradition that I wrote Rediscovering God in America to outline the truth of Washington’s words as evidenced in the monuments and buildings of Washington.

Finally, speaking personally, as a Christian to fellow Christians, we must bear witness to these truths because we have been commanded to do so. We possess a treasure of great worth, one which we have been instructed to share with the world. We cannot hide our lamps, because we have been instructed by God not to hide our lamps. Let us firmly resolve to put them upon a stand, and let them burn brightly, a gift from God for all the world to see.

http://www.newt.org/backpage.asp?art=4447

 

[mattskramer]

To answer both your post as well as mattskramer's I'd like to post here part of a speech by Newt Gingrich where he explained this relationship:

That was a nice long cut-and-paste job. It would be too time consuming for me to tear it up paragraph-by-paragraph but I will respond to some of it.

To be sure, the Truth of the Bible is not identical with the truths of the Declaration. But the two orders of truth do overlap, and where they overlap, they powerfully reinforce each other. Indeed, the Declaration assumes many of the central teachings of the Bible.

When our Declaration asserts “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”, it makes some key assumptions.

It assumes that God is sovereign over the universe. It assumes that God created man. And it assumes that man must obey an order of justice, which God Himself has instituted.

First of all, these founding fathers were not perfect. They made assumptions that may or may not be true. They were somewhat hypocritical. Some have even owned slaves.

Secondly, are you speaking of the justice in the Old Testament or are you speaking of the justice in the New Testament? I can show you some bizarre instructions and admonitions in each book.

That order of justice requires all men to honor each other's natural rights, because these rights are the unalienable endowment of the Almighty. When someone violates the rights of another they are not merely breaking the law. They are violating God’s grant of protection. These are the truths of the Declaration of Independence, and they reflect the Truth of the Bible.

Are rights natural or does God make rights? I argued many times that what is natural is not necessarily what is right or good. Cancer is natural in the sense that if you live long enough you will get it. Radiation and chemotherapy fights cancer. Did God create cancer or is cancer natural? Is cancer good or bad? Did God create chemotherapy or did man create it? Is chemotherapy good or bad? How does God protect good people who get Cancer? Considering how many hurricanes Florida Louisiana, and Mississippi get, those states must really be violating God’s grant of protection.

They are truths to which we must bear witness. They are the lamps, which we must keep alight before our neighbors and before the world. These are the lamps, which must be kept upon their stands.

We have relied upon these truths in our times of crisis; they have been the lights that guided us through our darkest hours.

They are placebos that may help people feel protected but they can also be abused by the arrogant and self-righteous. Recall “Manifest Destiny” Advocates of Manifest Destiny believed that expansion was not only good, but that it was obvious ("manifest") and certain ("destiny").

A nice sentimental prayer follows. The article goes on with nice sentiment and fellacious reasoning. I could easily refute nearly each paragraph but the board does not provide sufficient room. The article practically praises Jerry Falwell but then I don’t consider falwell to be an authority figure when it comes to right and wrong. He had a history of making some highly volitile and outrageous statements. For instance, he said, "I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians, ... the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this [terrorist attack] happen." Jerry Falwell, 700 Club, 2001-SEP-13.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falwell#Legal_issues

The article talks about trusting God’s guidance but as I said before, there are some pretty bizarre admonitions and instructions in the bible.

See http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html

Even today, these truths continue to sustain and guide us. In this age we face the irreconcilable wing of Islam, an enemy who does not believe that God created all men equal by right. According to their evil ideology, the Islamist believes that justice is only owed to fellow Islamists—while the rest of humanity (even fellow Muslims) have no rights.

Some Christian "truths" sustain some people. Other truths sustain other people. Islam is a religion. The followers of the religion are called Muslims. He should use proper vocabulary. We can debate what the Koran says and does not say. Anyway, the above paragraph does not mean that we should not provide even more freedoms for people of different religions. Also, we should fight terrorists no matter what religious belief they happen to hold. To provide some balance, militant Muslims are just a few centuries behind the times. Christians in Spain felt the same way years ago.

The American believes that all men and women —all—have equal rights, because that is the will of the Almighty and it is God that endows them. Indeed, we believe that no person stamped in the Divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on, degraded, and imbruted by its fellows.

This was not the case a few years ago. Americans believed that women should not be allowed to vote. Many Christian Americans owned slaves.

I could go on and on tearing this article apart but I simply don’t have the time or space. In summary, many Christians came to America. Some had slaves. Some established what amounted to official religions and did not allow for activity that looked suspicious. Read about the Salem Witch Trials. They steadily pushed the Indians further to the West believing that it was God’s will that they conquer America. It was strategy and work by many of the Christians and work by many of the remaining population of non-Christians that made America great. It was work provided by slaves on fruitful land provided by Indians that significantly help America prosper. The foundering fathers were people like you and me. They had their biases, prejudices, and inconsistencies. That was then and this is now. We should allow for the continued mention of Christian influence in our nation’s history via History classes. Yet, if teachers are going to lead Christian prayer we should allow for other prayer and customs of other religions too. So what if they did not contribute as much as did the many more Christians in American history.

 

[roadhouse158]

Your right...Christians did own slaves...Owning slaves doesn't go against Christianity. The Bible actually speaks of how one should treat slaves. Slavery was very common in biblical days. Did Jesus own slaves? Well no...He also wasn't a "typical" human. Jesus was God in human form. I guess we should also find everyones grave that was against slavery and worship them on Sundays too. Owning slaves has nothing to do with being a good Christian. Being a good Christian is about standing up for what the Bible commands. Not about accepting everyones views. Not everyone has biblical views. I hate that "even Christians did this" propaganda. Christians aren't God. Men are not perfect. That's kinda the whole point of the bible. That's why Jesus was so loved and worshiped, and not Barry from Jericho.

But before anyone ask if I am for Slavery.....Well no....I am not. Would I have been 200 years ago?...I don't know....That depends on how you were raised. I am sure that a lot of you on this message board that support gay rights so loyally wouldn't get along with your ancestors views on the subject. The slavery example has run its course. Just let it go.

 

[mattskramer]

Your right...Christians did own slaves...Owning slaves doesn't go against Christianity. The Bible actually speaks of how one should treat slaves. Slavery was very common in biblical days. Did Jesus own slaves? Well no...He also wasn't a "typical" human. Jesus was God in human form. I guess we should also find everyones grave that was against slavery and worship them on Sundays too. Owning slaves has nothing to do with being a good Christian. Being a good Christian is about standing up for what the Bible commands. Not about accepting everyones views. Not everyone has biblical views. I hate that "even Christians did this" propaganda. Christians aren't God. Men are not perfect. That's kinda the whole point of the bible. That's why Jesus was so loved and worshiped, and not Barry from Jericho.

But before anyone ask if I am for Slavery.....Well no....I am not. Would I have been 200 years ago?...I don't know....That depends on how you were raised. I am sure that a lot of you on this message board that support gay rights so loyally wouldn't get along with your ancestors views on the subject. The slavery example has run its course. Just let it go.

No. I’m not going to let it go until people stop using the old fallacious argument that it was the philosophy of Christianity that, almost single-handedly made America successful or the argument that because an element of something has a history, the element should continue. Something is not good or bad because it has a tradition.

 

[roadhouse158]

So in your opinion, America wasn't founded and established using Christian philosophy? OK. Very odd that all the history books written before the 60's had to say otherwise. Now we know differently. The more generations that we get away from what happened back then, the more truth we learn. Just kind of makes me think about that example the teachers used in school. You know...Whisper something to one student, and see how much it has changed by the time it gets to the last person. Usually it's not even close. hmm...But this is nothing like that. This time the last student doesn't actually tell what the teacher said to the first student, rather what the teacher meant to say to the first student. That's awesome!!

 

[dilloduck]

So in your opinion, America wasn't founded and established using Christian philosophy? OK. Very odd that all the history books written before the 60's had to say otherwise. Now we know differently. The more generations that we get away from what happened back then, the more truth we learn. Just kind of makes me think about that example the teachers used in school. You know...Whisper something to one student, and see how much it has changed by the time it gets to the last person. Usually it's not even close. hmm...But this is nothing like that. This time the last student doesn't actually tell what the teacher said to the first student, rather what the teacher meant to say to the first student. That's awesome!!

OMG burn those books, you numbskull ! Don't you know we're smarter now that we have "researched" the whole thing ??

 

[Annie]

So in your opinion, America wasn't founded and established using Christian philosophy? OK. Very odd that all the history books written before the 60's had to say otherwise. Now we know differently. The more generations that we get away from what happened back then, the more truth we learn. Just kind of makes me think about that example the teachers used in school. You know...Whisper something to one student, and see how much it has changed by the time it gets to the last person. Usually it's not even close. hmm...But this is nothing like that. This time the last student doesn't actually tell what the teacher said to the first student, rather what the teacher meant to say to the first student. That's awesome!!

Just curious. What do you think the history books said before the '60's?' Was that 1960's or 1850's? I'm assuming not 1750's before the revolution, but if that floats the boat, feel free.

 

[DeadCanDance]

So in your opinion, America wasn't founded and established using Christian philosophy? OK. Very odd that all the history books written before the 60's had to say otherwise. Now we know differently. The more generations that we get away from what happened back then, the more truth we learn. Just kind of makes me think about that example the teachers used in school. You know...Whisper something to one student, and see how much it has changed by the time it gets to the last person. Usually it's not even close. hmm...But this is nothing like that. This time the last student doesn't actually tell what the teacher said to the first student, rather what the teacher meant to say to the first student. That's awesome!!

So in your opinion, America wasn't founded and established using Christian philosophy? OK. Very odd that all the history books written before the 60's had to say otherwise.

The american people were predominantly christian. But, there were other minority relgions here from the very beginning. And our Government, our republic, and our system of law was specifically designed to be secular so that all religions, minority or not, would be free to practice their faith and have equal protection under the law:

Here's what our founders said about the American Government

Treaty of Tripoli -1797

Negotiated by President George Washington
Signed by President John Adams
Unanimously approved by the U.S. Senate

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen (muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

 

[roadhouse158]

Kathianne; I am not sure, but I think you were asking what 60's I was referring to. I was referring to the 1960's if that's what you were asking.

Now
In 1777, with the revolutionary war threatening the flow of bibles from England, Congress approved the purchase of 20,000 Bibles from Holland for the states

At least six of the original 13 states had official state-supported churches. These state, Conn, GA, Maryland, Mass, N.H, and S.C., refused to ratify the the new national constitution unless it included a prohibition of FEDERAL meddling with their existing state

Other states REQUIRED those seeking elected office to be Christian

The Continental Congress routinely designated days of fasting and prayer and appropriated money to pay for Christian missionaries to convert the "Indians".

I know me saying all these things mean absolutely nothing to people who disagree. I can give a list a three different books that I have read lately that discuss early American history. The above list come from these books.

The Marketing of Evil
Ten Tortured Words
1776

 

[Annie]

Kathianne; I am not sure, but I think you were asking what 60's I was referring to. I was referring to the 1960's if that's what you were asking.

Now
In 1777, with the revolutionary war threatening the flow of bibles from England, Congress approved the purchase of 20,000 Bibles from Holland for the states

At least six of the original 13 states had official state-supported churches. These state, Conn, GA, Maryland, Mass, N.H, and S.C., refused to ratify the the new national constitution unless it included a prohibition of FEDERAL meddling with their existing state

Other states REQUIRED those seeking elected office to be Christian

The Continental Congress routinely designated days of fasting and prayer and appropriated money to pay for Christian missionaries to convert the "Indians".

I know me saying all these things mean absolutely nothing to people who disagree. I can give a list a three different books that I have read lately that discuss early American history. The above list come from these books.

The Marketing of Evil
Ten Tortured Words
1776

The opening was there, you chose not to walk through it.

 

[Ruby]

Your right...Christians did own slaves...Owning slaves doesn't go against Christianity. The Bible actually speaks of how one should treat slaves. Slavery was very common in biblical days. Did Jesus own slaves? Well no...He also wasn't a "typical" human. Jesus was God in human form. I guess we should also find everyones grave that was against slavery and worship them on Sundays too. Owning slaves has nothing to do with being a good Christian. Being a good Christian is about standing up for what the Bible commands. Not about accepting everyones views. Not everyone has biblical views. I hate that "even Christians did this" propaganda. Christians aren't God. Men are not perfect. That's kinda the whole point of the bible. That's why Jesus was so loved and worshiped, and not Barry from Jericho.

But before anyone ask if I am for Slavery.....Well no....I am not. Would I have been 200 years ago?...I don't know....That depends on how you were raised. I am sure that a lot of you on this message board that support gay rights so loyally wouldn't get along with your ancestors views on the subject. The slavery example has run its course. Just let it go.

Actually your post highlights that christianity is not a good guide for morality, it condones and even encourages immoral things like slavery. If you belief that the philosophy of christianity is what the US is based on then it would be a good idea to now base ourselves on somthing much more moral than a philosophy that encourages immoral concepts like slavery.

Your post also highlights the fact that the bible is stagnated in ancient times and cultures which mean it cant be a timeless perfect word from some perfect creator, it it were then it would not be so "dated" and have morals based upon one period of human history.

The slavery example hasnt run its course, its actually an excellent point on why we shouldnt base our nation on a philosophy that encourages or condones such immoral concepts.

The truly relevent question isnt if christianity played a major part in our nation in its early beginnings. The relevent question is how do we proceed and what part shall it play in our national/public life now.

Religion should not play a role in developing our laws and/or our public policies etc.There shouldnt be religious indoctrination in any part of public life for ANY religion.

 

[DeadCanDance]

Kathianne; I am not sure, but I think you were asking what 60's I was referring to. I was referring to the 1960's if that's what you were asking.

Now
In 1777, with the revolutionary war threatening the flow of bibles from England, Congress approved the purchase of 20,000 Bibles from Holland for the states

At least six of the original 13 states had official state-supported churches. These state, Conn, GA, Maryland, Mass, N.H, and S.C., refused to ratify the the new national constitution unless it included a prohibition of FEDERAL meddling with their existing state

Other states REQUIRED those seeking elected office to be Christian

The Continental Congress routinely designated days of fasting and prayer and appropriated money to pay for Christian missionaries to convert the "Indians".

I know me saying all these things mean absolutely nothing to people who disagree. I can give a list a three different books that I have read lately that discuss early American history. The above list come from these books.

The Marketing of Evil
Ten Tortured Words
1776

Interesting.

So, you would have fought on the side of the American Tories - those loyal to the crown - during the American revolution. Fascinating.

Because, as a history buff, I’m sure you’re aware that it was the Tory loyalists who supported the European and English traditions of divine (Godly) rights, state churches, and a confluence of State and church; i.e. Theocracy.

Fortunately for us, the founders and the patriots were fighting for natural rights, and against the European tradition of divine rights and corrupt state churches. They were fighting for freedom. Including freedom of religion. The founders were men of the Enlightenment and rationality. That's not to say many of them weren’t spiritual or deist in nature - but they were fundamentally opposed to the Church-State theocracies that grew out of the Dark Ages.

Now, as a history buff, I’m sure you’re also aware that the Tory loyalists were very powerful in America - right up until well into the Revolution. Surely in the 1700s - the time span you identify - american loyalists were the vast majority, and continued to believe in divine rights, marriage of church and state, and theocracy. Indeed the Tories and loyalists were a majority in some states right up to and including the American Revolution. I’m not surprised you found some states that you admire, that had State religions in 1700’s.

Indeed within a few decades after the revolution, all the State Churches in america had been disestablished/abolished. The last remaining ties to the European theocratic traditions were cut. And it is universally acknowledged today, that under the Constitution and its amendments, a State Church cannot be established in the Country.

The thing is, we (the patriots and founders) killed or exiled the american Tory loyalists during and after the revolution. They wrote a Constitutional form of republican government that was entirely secular - so that Government would stay out of religion, and all religions were tolerated and given freedom to practice their faith.

And guess what? That secular government tradition led to one of the most religious nations on earth. It is by keeping government out of religion, that made religion so strong in america. America was a place where religion could thrive and grow freely. Without interference or favoritism of the State. Notice how in Europe, where State and Church were effectively married to each other, people have become largely non-religious. Over the decades and centuries, the State churches became corrupt oligarchies, and European citizens largely became cynical and distrustful of them.

Treaty of Tripoli -1797

Negotiated by President George Washington
Signed by President John Adams
Unanimously approved by the U.S. Senate

Article 11 reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen (muslims); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

THOMAS JEFFERSON: “Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State ”

JAMES MADISON (Father of the US Constitution): “An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against.....Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government.”

 

[roadhouse158]

Well...No. The STATES wanted their own rights. This is in contrast to the British views of the King runs all. See the difference? The Federal government could not impose upon the States a Federal religion. However the States had every right to decide upon their own. I don't care if you don't want to believe that Christianity played a big role in the formation of this country. You can think that as much as you want. I don't even care if someone isn't a Christian. I am not a preacher, and I don't go around trying to save people. There is very obviously a "social" war going on today surrounding Christianities role in this country. In my opinion what started it was the rapid onslaught of scientific information. People stopped believing in God because they believe they can explain our existence through other means. Other than a God. This however has no bearing on how the country was founded. One more thing...Christianity just means that one accepts that Jesus was the messiah, and the son of God. If the colonies were demanding that one be a Baptist, or a Catholic, or a Methodist, or take your pick. Then I could see ones comparison to the British rule of law that all must conform to the Catholic church. This however isn't the case