The United States Was Born Liberal

[rayboyusmc]

If you use liberal as an agent of change, we were born liberal. If you use conservative as holding onto the present, we weren't born conservative.

 

[xsited1]

Especially considering the Articles of Confederation gave very little power to the federal government.

Yep. Modern-day Liberals and Neoconservatives have been destroying the Constitution for years. I think we've passed the point of no return.

 

[xsited1]

If you use liberal as an agent of change, we were born liberal. If you use conservative as holding onto the present, we weren't born conservative.

If you go by the dictionary definition of Liberal, I would agree. However, its meaning has been corrupted by contemporary American liberals.

 

[sealybobo]

Been on a college campus recently?

This really renders the rest of your post mute. Those three terms are not synonyms. GET THAT THROUGH FOR FUCKING SKULL. Then we can move on.

On what basis did you come up with the notion that conservatives don't beleive in science?

So what you're saying is everyone paying higher taxes is progress?



Very, very few Republicans can be called truly conservative. Just because a Republican was President and Republicans had a majority does not mean CONSERVATIVES HAD A MAJORITY. haven't we talked a few times about arguments based on faulty premises?

The Young Republicans had a very tough year this year. No one joined and their numbers deminished. Are you suggesting college kids are conservative?


It is imperative for you that we don't lump conservatives and republicans and Bush together. Guess what? Not gonna happen. We will always point to Bush when we say, "see, that's what happens when you put conservatives in charge". You can beg me all you want to seperate them but Bush is the poster child for Conservatives. But I understand why you want to distance Bush from conservatives. Sorry, he was a conservative. And conservatives defended him for 7 years, so you can see why we think they are all one and the same. But keep repeating yourself because people will probably buy it in 2010.

And YES, everyone pay more in taxes!! Exactly!!! If that's what will get the economy going, I'll gladly pay $2K more in taxes if it means making $15K a year more. And if it will lower inflation so my dollar is worth a dollar again, go for it.

Your nipples got hard over bush's tax cuts but you didn't complain when his policies jacked up the cost of living?

And I'm sorry, but Bush ran as a conservative. Remember? Compassionate one too.

 

[CSM]

The Young Republicans had a very tough year this year. No one joined and their numbers deminished. Are you suggesting college kids are conservative?


It is imperative for you that we don't lump conservatives and republicans and Bush together. Guess what? Not gonna happen. We will always point to Bush when we say, "see, that's what happens when you put conservatives in charge". You can beg me all you want to seperate them but Bush is the poster child for Conservatives. But I understand why you want to distance Bush from conservatives. Sorry, he was a conservative. And conservatives defended him for 7 years, so you can see why we think they are all one and the same. But keep repeating yourself because people will probably buy it in 2010.

And YES, everyone pay more in taxes!! Exactly!!! If that's what will get the economy going, I'll gladly pay $2K more in taxes if it means making $15K a year more. And if it will lower inflation so my dollar is worth a dollar again, go for it.

Your nipples got hard over bush's tax cuts but you didn't complain when his policies jacked up the cost of living?

And I'm sorry, but Bush ran as a conservative. Remember? Compassionate one too.

Glad to hear that you are willing to pay more taxes. I hope you notice that there is a place on your Federal Tax Return form for paying more than the IRS deems you owe. I guess we can all assume you will be voluntarily filling that space with at least a $2000 figure.

 

[Bern80]

Bern, who have you and your lol CONSERVATIVE buddies been voting for lately? I want you to know that I find this growing rift in the republican party, especially when your side doesn't hesitate to equate democrat with liberal, rich as hell.

I don't equate all democrats as liberals. The distinction between the two is quite obvious coming from the midwest. I can't speak to who my 'buddies' voted for. In our state legislature I voted for a democrat and Republican. U.S. Sentate I voted for an Independent. President I voted Republican.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And YES, everyone pay more in taxes!! Exactly!!! If that's what will get the economy going, I'll gladly pay $2K more in taxes if it means making $15K a year more. And if it will lower inflation so my dollar is worth a dollar again, go for it.

Higher taxes and government spending will not magically jump start the economy. That Keynesian thinking got us into this mess, it certainly won't get us out.



How in your wildest dreams do you think higher taxes will decrease inflation? Higher taxes does not decrease the supply of dollars in existence, and it certainly doesn't stop the Fed from printing more dollars. Thinking higher taxes "lowers inflation" is economic ignorance.

 

[sealybobo]

Very, very few Republicans can be called truly conservative. Just because a Republican was President and Republicans had a majority does not mean CONSERVATIVES HAD A MAJORITY. haven't we talked a few times about arguments based on faulty premises?

And why should we trust the next Republican when he/she says they are conservative?

That was like when you guys suggested that McCain would be different than Bush, but you couldn't point to one important issue and tell us HOW he would be different.

PS. Regarding raising taxes. The GOP put what they spent on the debt. You do realize that's worse than asking you to pay now, don't you? Now what they spent is collecting interest.

You don't cut taxes during a time of war, but that's what Bush the conservative did. That's never been done before, and clearly he shouldn't have done it either. And that Berneke. All he knows how to do is cut interest. And doing that is not the solution!!!

I can't wait for Obama's team to get in there Jan 20th.

But then you "conservatives" will make me so mad because you will armchair everthing he does and you'll talk shit about what he should do, and I won't be able to forget what a horrible job your fucking guys did when they were in charge.

So Tom Delay isn't conservative? Bush isn't? Who is? Ron Paul? Well then run him next time!!!

 

[Bern80]

The Young Republicans had a very tough year this year. No one joined and their numbers deminished. Are you suggesting college kids are conservative?

You said my perception was off that liberals are louder. I said go to a college campus and you will see otherwise.

It is imperative for you that we don't lump conservatives and republicans and Bush together. Guess what? Not gonna happen. We will always point to Bush when we say, "see, that's what happens when you put conservatives in charge". You can beg me all you want to seperate them but Bush is the poster child for Conservatives. But I understand why you want to distance Bush from conservatives. Sorry, he was a conservative. And conservatives defended him for 7 years, so you can see why we think they are all one and the same. But keep repeating yourself because people will probably buy it in 2010.

This is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. Do you honeslty not care that the premise your argument rests on is wrong? BUSH IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE YOU IDIOT. Thus it can not be stated that he is representative of how conservative would govern. Someone like Ron Paul would be a better indicator of that. Listen to a conservative on talk radio some time. They aren't fawning over Bush. Everything, every single word in that paragraph is untrue.

And YES, everyone pay more in taxes!! Exactly!!! If that's what will get the economy going, I'll gladly pay $2K more in taxes if it means making $15K a year more. And if it will lower inflation so my dollar is worth a dollar again, go for it.

How the fuck does everyone haveing less money to put into the economy help the economy genius?

Your nipples got hard over bush's tax cuts but you didn't complain when his policies jacked up the cost of living?

Where did your cost of living go up?

And I'm sorry, but Bush ran as a conservative. Remember? Compassionate one too.

he can call himself whatever the hell he wants. calling yourself something doesn't mean that's what you are.

 

[CSM]

...
I can't wait for Obama's team to get in there Jan 20th.

But then you "conservatives" will make me so mad because you will armchair everthing he does and you'll talk shit about what he should do, and I won't be able to forget what a horrible job your fucking guys did when they were in charge....

Oh yeah, we can hardly wait to piss you off!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Who is? Ron Paul? Well then run him next time!!!

Smartest thing you've ever said.

 

[Bern80]

But then you "conservatives" will make me so mad because you will armchair everthing he does and you'll talk shit about what he should do, and I won't be able to forget what a horrible job your fucking guys did when they were in charge.

Ah so because this group you have lumped me in had a bad President I have therefore lost my right to have an opinion of or speak my mind about the current President. Got it.

 

[sealybobo]

Higher taxes and government spending will not magically jump start the economy. That Keynesian thinking got us into this mess, it certainly won't get us out.



How in your wildest dreams do you think higher taxes will decrease inflation? Higher taxes does not decrease the supply of dollars in existence, and it certainly doesn't stop the Fed from printing more dollars. Thinking higher taxes "lowers inflation" is economic ignorance.

Depends on what the government spends on. If they spend it in America and on Americans, it will jump start the economy. Bush's spending went to 1% of our population. Now that surely didn't work.

Higher taxes got us in this mess? Please explain.

Higher taxes won't decrease or increase inflation. But it will help balance our budget/pay down the debt maybe?

I'm no expert, but I hear we need to raise interest rates. It'll cause a short term recession but is the long term fix. I'm no expert though, so I won't pretend to be.

PS. Most wealthy people say they would glady pay more in taxes if it meant people would start spending money again.

And we aren't raising taxes. We're letting the Bush tax breaks expire. And then maybe Obama will spread the tax breaks around to the masses rather than the top 1%. Then that money will be spent, not horded away. The rich can only buy so many yachts and vacation homes. Even McCain stopped at 12 homes. Now if he will only buy another million homes, maybe then I'll buy into trickle down.

 

[sealybobo]

Ah so because this group you have lumped me in had a bad President I have therefore lost my right to have an opinion of or speak my mind about the current President. Got it.

Bad Senate majority leader, bad house leader, bad all around.

It wasn't just Bush that fucked up the economy from 2000-2006. Tom Delay, Abramoff, Craig, Vetter, Foley, Stevens, Boehner, Hastert, etc.

Who's a true conservative in the GOP? Besides Ron Paul.

 

[Shogun]

Hey Bern.. who did you root for in the 04 presidential election. Again, it's fucking hilarious to watch "conservatives" leaping in every direction like rats on a sinking boat.

 

[Bern80]

Depends on what the government spends on. If they spend it in America and on Americans, it will jump start the economy. Bush's spending went to 1% of our population. Now that surely didn't work.

What is the govenment going to spend money on that is going to boost the economy? Are they going to make jobs out of thin air? Should they just give you a big fat check? Be specific sealy. I want to see how stupid you can make yourself look.

And we aren't raising taxes. We're letting the Bush tax breaks expire. And then maybe Obama will spread the tax breaks around to the masses rather than the top 1%. Then that money will be spent, not horded away. The rich can only buy so many yachts and vacation homes. Even McCain stopped at 12 homes. Now if he will only buy another million homes, maybe then I'll buy into trickle down.

Call it whatever you need to call it. The fact is taxes will go up.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Depends on what the government spends on. If they spend it in America and on Americans, it will jump start the economy. Bush's spending went to 1% of our population. Now that surely didn't work.

Higher taxes got us in this mess? Please explain.

Higher taxes won't decrease or increase inflation. But it will help balance our budget/pay down the debt maybe?

I'm no expert, but I hear we need to raise interest rates. It'll cause a short term recession but is the long term fix. I'm no expert though, so I won't pretend to be.

PS. Most wealthy people say they would glady pay more in taxes if it meant people would start spending money again.

And we aren't raising taxes. We're letting the Bush tax breaks expire. And then maybe Obama will spread the tax breaks around to the masses rather than the top 1%. Then that money will be spent, not horded away. The rich can only buy so many yachts and vacation homes. Even McCain stopped at 12 homes. Now if he will only buy another million homes, maybe then I'll buy into trickle down.

The private sector generates wealth, not the government. I absolutely agree that we need to balance our budget and pay off our deficit. But raising taxes is not the solution. Cutting taxes and cutting government spending is the way to go.

Spending for the sake of spending is not a solution.

 

[Bern80]

Hey Bern.. who did you root for in the 04 presidential election. Again, it's fucking hilarious to watch "conservatives" leaping in every direction like rats on a sinking boat.

Did you vote for Obama because you were in love with Obama, or because you didn't like McCain?

 

[editec]

The meaning of the word liberal has so changed that having a rational discussion about the "liberalism" of the founding fathers makes zero sense in today's context.

 

[Tech_Esq]

"The United States, as the political scientist Louis Hartz argued in the 1950s, was born liberal. We fought for our independence against Great Britain and the conservatism that flourished there. In Europe, a conservative was someone who defended the traditions of the monarchy, justified the privileges of the nobility, and welcomed the intervention of a state-affiliated clergy in politics. But all those things would be tossed out by the revolutionaries who led the war for independence and then wrote the Constitution. We chose to have an elected president, not an anointed monarch. Our Constitution prohibited the granting of titles of nobility. We separated church and state."

Quote from: "Why Conservatives Can't Govern" by Alan Wolfe (Emphasis mine)

The quote in context makes logical sense to me... Elite power base, Church influence in politics, Wealth to the wealthy - almost makes one wish we had another new world to conquer in order to establish yet another more perfect union...

-Joe

It might make sense to you, but it isn't supported by the facts. There American Colonists were supported by the arch-conservative Edmund Burke.

Be content to bind America by laws of trade; you have always done it...Do not burthen them with taxes...But if intemperately, unwisely, fatally, you sophisticate and poison the very source of government by urging subtle deductions, and consequences odious to those you govern, from the unlimited and illimitable nature of supreme sovereignty, you will teach them by these means to call that sovereignty itself in question...If that sovereignty and their freedom cannot be reconciled, which will they take? They will cast your sovereignty in your face. No body of men will be argued into slavery.

That hardly sounds like it was the Tories the Americans were fighting against. Rather, as expected, it was the lot that loves taxes more than life itself.