The United States Was Born Liberal

[DiamondDave]

Progressive issues are things like greener energy and gay rights, yes? (I definitely think greener energy would be progress.) I can't think of others off the top of my head....

How would those exemplify a mentality of people wanting "things rather than having to actually work for things"?

Well... it is a very common misconception that conservatives do not want progress... being 'progressive' in advancing technologies, etc is not just a liberal or leftist trait

 

[AVG-JOE]

*laughs* well Joe I will keep my illusions as to how I define it I suppose and my apologies for straying somewhat from the original intent of the article. I do wish though that many in Govt. would adhere to principle or at the very least try to have some sense of ethics when it comes to the performance of their duties. I have always felt that when then Federal Govt. which does so on a daily basis and has so for years strays outside it's scope of power it is the very opposite of being a good steward of the constitution and more so flys in the face of what the true definition of the word "conserve" means. Our Govt. IMHO was founded on the principles of individual liberties and to limit those individual liberties based on a set personal moral principles is not in keeping with the word conservative and it's definition. So again, my apoligies all for going off topic..

Truer words have rarely been spoken. Your post may have strayed from the horizon but there is richness in looking to the sides; your view was and is welcome, at least by me. And I stand by my wish that American conservative policy was a better reflection of the dictionary definition of the word.

I think that the article is right, though... If big government is a pile of shit, but here to stay because it is necessary to keep either party in power, the republicans will not get beyond mis-management of it because they can't stand the smell and the democrats will thrive on it because they believe that the smell means that they are busy working and shit washes off.

-Joe

 

[Caligirl]

Well... it is a very common misconception that conservatives do not want progress... being 'progressive' in advancing technologies, etc is not just a liberal or leftist trait

I know, which is silly. Developing the best bomb was progressive too, and if we trash science we won't be the ones to do it again.... someone else will....

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Yes he can. Back then, he was liberal.

The Conservatives back then wanted to stay a part of England.

Just like you conservatives got more conservative when you found out Clinton liked BJ's.

And you Conservatives should have spoke up before 2006. You defended everything Bush did for 6-7 years. Now you want to distance yourselves from him? Yet you won't let us distance ourselves from Carter?

No, back then Alexander Hamilton was a liberal. He favored a strong central government. Thomas Jefferson said, "That government is best, which governs least." As I said, I am not convinced that being revolutionary means you are either liberal or conservative. I think they are two different "scales" entirely.

I've told you before that I am not a conservative, I have never defended Bush, and I couldn't care less what Clinton enjoys in his personal life.

And for the record, this thread had nothing to do with Clinton, Bush, or Carter. Your partisanship doesn't let you see anything beyond, "Democrat good, Republican bad."

 

[del]

How? Most actual liberals still believe those things.

so do most actual conservatives.
do you consider slave ownership a liberal value? denying the vote to women? the world has changed in 200+ years and i doubt very much that an 18th century liberal would agree with his 21st century counterpart on a number of issues such as welfare, abortion, taxation, etc.
i'm not saying he'd agree with what purports to be conservatism, just that the term as used in the 18th century has little to do with the modern equivalent.

 

[Navy1960]

Truer words have rarely been spoken. Your post may have strayed from the horizon but there is richness in looking to the sides; your view was and is welcome, at least by me. And I stand by my wish that American conservative policy was a better reflection of the dictionary definition of the word.

I think that the article is right, though... If big government is a pile of shit, but here to stay because it is necessary to keep either party in power, the republicans will not get beyond mis-management of it because they can't stand the smell and the democrats will thrive on it because they believe that the smell means that they are busy working and shit washes off.

-Joe

Joe, speaking of "smell" did you happen to hear the words spoken at the decication of the new Visitors Center at the Capitol yesterday by Harry Reid? He said something to the effect that one bonus was that during the summer he would no longer have to smell the tourists comming into the Capitol building during the summer. I thought to myself, now there is a good commentary on how our elected representatives think of the people they represent. Big Govt. has and is, spending away my daughters future and personally these day's I don't see much difference between people in congress that lack ethics and the steel to represent the people that actually voted for them.

 

[bigdaddygtr]

bingo. they don't apply at all. to be liberal in the 18th century was to deny the divine right of kings and to assert the rights of the individual to self governance and religious choice.

i think the agenda has shifted a tad 200+ years later.

Exactly like how the Democratic party and the Republican party have switched and Abraham Lincoln was a Democrat

 

[sealybobo]

More untruer words were never spoken. Especially with regards to the last statement. Between liberals and conservatives as defined today, liberals by far do the most talking. That is why I think so many people believe that liberalism is the way of the land, it's simply because you're louder, not because you actually accomplish all that much.

There are a great plenty changes that conservatives want. For starters a much simpler tax code. We want a change to a much more limited government.

I also really love the term Progressive given its root of 'progress'. I'm not really sure how any liberal position can be defined as progress as most of them have the inherent flaw that keeps people from adapting/progressing given the overall mentality that people are entitled to things rather than haveing to actually work for things.

This is all your perception. And you are not very perceptive.

Bush/Republicans/Conservatives got the tax code they wanted. It didn't help you? Exactly!

We do the most talking? We sat for 6 years while the GOP ruled Washington and if we said ANYTHING, we were labeled unpatriotic.

We're louder? It turns out the moral majority is actually the minority. Sure they might go along with you on gay marriage, but on abortion, stem cell and every other social issue, you guys are in the minority. Yet you still got to push your agenda for 8 years.

The country isn't conservative. Your party scared people into siding with them though through the fear of terrorism. And it was a, "you're either with us or against us" society the entire time. So unAmerican.

Simpler tax code and limited government. After the last 8 years, you have the balls/courage to stick with that montra? Well, it's what got you elected in the first place, so might as well. And considering the American people have a very short attention span, they'll forget your party betrayed you and you'll just put all the blame on Bush. One man. As if one man could have done all this damage by himself.

We are progressive because before this country was founded, back in England you were either a have or a have not. In America, because of progressives, we have/had a strong middle class. Not just poor and rich. Not every man for himself. We freed the slaves, got workers rights for your sorry ass who doesn't even appreciate what we achieved for you, science.

How can you consider yourselves the party of progress when you don't even accept science?

Yes, people are entitled.....to life, liberty and the persuit of happyness.

Anyways, you are a corporatist. The founding fathers and every good president warned about corporations getting too powerful. YOU supported Tom Delay and Bush and the rest of the GOP as they gave Corporations all the power/control. And look where your capitalist/free markets got us.

Not all change is good. And unfortunately, us Progressives are going to have to go backwards when we undo what Bush did. We hate going in reverse, but staying the same or defending the status quo is not an option.

PS. You Conservatives crack me up. You still have the balls to speak? After the last 8 years? After the ass kicking you got in the last two elections? Relax. 2010 election is right around the corner. Why don't you lay low, shut the fuck up and let the Democrats hang themselves.

You won't do that because you know they'll do a better job than you did and it'll be 20 years before you see power again! Rove's plan backfired!!

 

[del]

Exactly like how the Democratic party and the Republican party have switched and Abraham Lincoln was a Democrat

exactly.
except for the part about the parties switching and lincoln being a democrat.

 

[sealybobo]

I love how liberals think conservatives aren't for green energy. We want to explore all avenues of new energy including drilling our own supply. Libs are the ones that have their minds closed on ideas such as drilling.

Why not do everything?

Ha!

You still deny global energy. Newt Gingrich even admitted that Conservatives deny global warming and don't want to go green because of two reasons:

1. They don't want more regulations telling corporations what to do
2. They don't want to pay to go green. Going green most definately means higher taxes to pay for it.

PS. I heard on NPR of a town that went Nuclear back in the 70's. It was GREAT for their town. Boomed their economy. Now the plant is closing. All the company is going to do is put some small amount of protection over what has become a dump and no one in that town wants to buy a home/condo on that piece of property. Not for another 1000 years at least.

You conservatives don't give a fuck about the consequences of your action. All you care about is immediate gratification. Screw our grandkids, right?

 

[sealybobo]

"Democrat good, Republican bad."

From 1980-2008, you are correct.

 

[Andrew2382]

Yeah, thats why Newt in his own book "drill here, drill now, pay less" has a plan for alternate energy while drilling our own resources in the meantime. Do you always spew random bullshit?

P.S

If you replaced all the nuclear power plants in this country and wanted to put in wind generated electric, you would need an area as big as VA.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

From 1980-2008, you are correct.

Aren't you clever.

 

[rayboyusmc]

but if you took the views of the "liberals" at the founding of the country and implemented them all today, I think the conservatives of today would be far happier about it than the liberals of today.

True enough. How many conservative views today were liberal at their inception?

 

[xsited1]

"The United States, as the political scientist Louis Hartz argued in the 1950s, was born liberal.

....

-Joe

It's always funny when people confuse modern-day American Liberals with Classical Liberals (i.e., Libertarians). Somehow they think the dictionary definition of 'Liberal' defines who they are and what they believe in. I used to think they were just being trolls, but they actually believe this lie.

 

[del]

It's always funny when people confuse modern-day American Liberals with Classical Liberals (i.e., Libertarians). Somehow they think the dictionary definition of 'Liberal' defines who they are and what they believe in. I used to think they were just being trolls, but they actually believe this lie.

classical liberals are not libertarians

 

[Bern80]

This is all your perception. And you are not very perceptive.

Been on a college campus recently?

Bush/Republicans/Conservatives

This really renders the rest of your post mute. Those three terms are not synonyms. GET THAT THROUGH FOR FUCKING SKULL. Then we can move on.

How can you consider yourselves the party of progress when you don't even accept science?

On what basis did you come up with the notion that conservatives don't beleive in science?

Yes, people are entitled.....to life, liberty and the persuit of happyness.

At least get honest with yourself, you want to entitle people to a little more than that.

Anyways, you are a corporatist. The founding fathers and every good president warned about corporations getting too powerful. YOU supported Tom Delay and Bush and the rest of the GOP as they gave Corporations all the power/control. And look where your capitalist/free markets got us.

ON what basis did you determine I am a corporatist (whatever that is)?

Not all change is good. And unfortunately, us Progressives are going to have to go backwards when we undo what Bush did. We hate going in reverse, but staying the same or defending the status quo is not an option.

So what you're saying is everyone paying higher taxes is progress?

PS. You Conservatives crack me up. You still have the balls to speak? After the last 8 years? After the ass kicking you got in the last two elections? Relax. 2010 election is right around the corner. Why don't you lay low, shut the fuck up and let the Democrats hang themselves.

You won't do that because you know they'll do a better job than you did and it'll be 20 years before you see power again! Rove's plan backfired!!

Very, very few Republicans can be called truly conservative. Just because a Republican was President and Republicans had a majority does not mean CONSERVATIVES HAD A MAJORITY. haven't we talked a few times about arguments based on faulty premises?

 

[Shogun]

Bern, who have you and your lol CONSERVATIVE buddies been voting for lately? I want you to know that I find this growing rift in the republican party, especially when your side doesn't hesitate to equate democrat with liberal, rich as hell.

 

[xsited1]

classical liberals are not libertarians

I've heard the arguments and most of the time it's just semantics. They are very, very close. Regardless, the United States was not born Liberal if you use the modern-day America Liberal as a guide.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Regardless, the United States was not born Liberal if you use the modern-day America Liberal as a guide.

Especially considering the Articles of Confederation gave very little power to the federal government.