The U. S. is no longer the land of opportunity. Upward mobility has ended.

[Beachboy]

That one number only addressed people from the bottom 20% moving into the top 40%, not the other 40% position that also exists (which could be an upward). It also doesn't address the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quin tiles moving upwards. You need to perform more due diligence before you make the statement, "Upward mobility has ended."

Have you read this thread? I don't think so. While you are correct in terms of the actual count. You are incorrect in regard to the implied promise that people will truly move up. The expectation is to move from a rented shack into a three bedroom ranch of their own, and send their kids to college.

It would be like moving from clerk at Wal mart to Assistant Manger. What are we talking an increase of 70 cents an hour. Peanuts!

You do not understand this thread. Or, you have an axe to grind, (perhaps from exploiting the working poor yourself). And, you have brought disagreement to a thoughtful thread where their should be spiritual harmony. You are disrupting the discussion of the OP. You have missed the entire point of this thread. Get on the right page or leave.

I am unsure why you think there is an "implied promise" that people will "move up" the financial economic ladder. The opportunity exists to improve ones societal economic position, but no promises have been made stating that one will.
The words 'opportunity' and 'success' mean two entirely different things.

Unfortunately for you, I pointed out how your premise is flawed, but you backed it up with another flawed premise,

Victimized by a hit and run poster. Remember the name "alan1", This is a guy who likes to stir things up, and then hides when he loses the argument.

The only thing I've lost is what little respect I had for you.
This is a message board, you stated your opinion (based upon ignoring many facts), then I stated my opinion (using the facts from your linked article that you failed to see). I didn't hide from anything, I just didn't post last night because I was too busy meeting my daughters for dinner and enjoying quality time with them. I am also unsure why you think disagreement is victimization and/or stirring things up when it occurs on a political message board. You seem hyper-sensitive.

You never had any respect for me, and after reading reading your posts, I have none for a guy whose posts are repetition of Republican talking points.

Whatever you are trying to say, please do it with fact/links. I have no interest in what comes out of your keyboard.

I will leave you with one thought, moving from the working class poor to the lower middle income the citizen is still a food stamp user. Hardly a move upward by the American standards of upward mobility.

Now I am going to repost the OP alone. Either direct your remarks to the OP, or get out of the thread because I am ready to take you to the Mods with an Off Topic disruption charge. Got that corporate lackey?

 

[Beachboy]

The OP

Last Friday night it was discussed on Bill Maher's Real Time that America's implied promise that if you worked hard you would own a home, and you could send your children to college is no longer true. This link is to a Time Magazine article that was quoted.

This hit me hard, and causes me to seek out your opinion.

Why the U.S. is No Longer the Land of Opportunity | TIME.com

"This week’s cover story in TIME by Rana Foroohar, titled What Ever Happened to Upward Mobility?, examines the opportunity gap in America and why it has gotten so uneven. A recent study from the Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult. It now appears, as Foroohar points out, that a number of recent studies have shown that it is now easier to move up the income ladder in Europe than it is in America. So much for the land of the opportunity."

​

 

[alan1]

Have you read this thread? I don't think so. While you are correct in terms of the actual count. You are incorrect in regard to the implied promise that people will truly move up. The expectation is to move from a rented shack into a three bedroom ranch of their own, and send their kids to college.

It would be like moving from clerk at Wal mart to Assistant Manger. What are we talking an increase of 70 cents an hour. Peanuts!

You do not understand this thread. Or, you have an axe to grind, (perhaps from exploiting the working poor yourself). And, you have brought disagreement to a thoughtful thread where their should be spiritual harmony. You are disrupting the discussion of the OP. You have missed the entire point of this thread. Get on the right page or leave.

I am unsure why you think there is an "implied promise" that people will "move up" the financial economic ladder. The opportunity exists to improve ones societal economic position, but no promises have been made stating that one will.
The words 'opportunity' and 'success' mean two entirely different things.

Unfortunately for you, I pointed out how your premise is flawed, but you backed it up with another flawed premise,

Victimized by a hit and run poster. Remember the name "alan1", This is a guy who likes to stir things up, and then hides when he loses the argument.

The only thing I've lost is what little respect I had for you.
This is a message board, you stated your opinion (based upon ignoring many facts), then I stated my opinion (using the facts from your linked article that you failed to see). I didn't hide from anything, I just didn't post last night because I was too busy meeting my daughters for dinner and enjoying quality time with them. I am also unsure why you think disagreement is victimization and/or stirring things up when it occurs on a political message board. You seem hyper-sensitive.

You never had any respect for me, and after reading reading your posts, I have none for a guy whose posts are repetition of Republican talking points.

Whatever you are trying to say, please do it with fact/links. I have no interest in what comes out of your keyboard.

I will leave you with one thought, moving from the working class poor to the lower middle income the citizen is still a food stamp user. Hardly a move upward by the American standards of upward mobility.

Now I am going to repost the OP alone. Either direct your remarks to the OP, or get out of the thread because I am ready to take you to the Mods with an Off Topic disruption charge. Got that corporate lackey?

Your failure to either read my reply or understand my reply (I don't know which one it is) is not my fault. I absolutely addressed the points in the OP and in the article but maybe an example is needed so that you will understand my points.

Lets take hypothetical Joe that was born into a family in the bottom fifth of the society in terms of wealth. Joe grows up, gets a job, raises a family and eventually ends up in the bottom second or third fifth of the society in terms of wealth. Now then, Joe certainly isn't among the 17% that ended up in the top 2/5's of the wealth hierarchy in the US that your PEW article talks about. BUT...... Joe is in a higher wealth bracket than what he was born into. Our hypothetical Joe was upwardly mobile and did improve his lot in life. Your OP (and your point) fails to recognize that upwardly mobility, all you want to talk about is the fact that he didn't make it into the top 2/5.
By the way, as long as people divide wealth into 5 quin-tiles, there will always be equal numbers in each quin-tile, exactly 20% in each one. That's how math works.

P.S.
I'm not a Republican. Republicans are too liberal for my tastes.

P.S.S.
Feel free to report me to the mods if you want to look foolish.

 

[Beachboy]

I am unsure why you think there is an "implied promise" that people will "move up" the financial economic ladder. The opportunity exists to improve ones societal economic position, but no promises have been made stating that one will.
The words 'opportunity' and 'success' mean two entirely different things.

Unfortunately for you, I pointed out how your premise is flawed, but you backed it up with another flawed premise,


The only thing I've lost is what little respect I had for you.
This is a message board, you stated your opinion (based upon ignoring many facts), then I stated my opinion (using the facts from your linked article that you failed to see). I didn't hide from anything, I just didn't post last night because I was too busy meeting my daughters for dinner and enjoying quality time with them. I am also unsure why you think disagreement is victimization and/or stirring things up when it occurs on a political message board. You seem hyper-sensitive.

You never had any respect for me, and after reading reading your posts, I have none for a guy whose posts are repetition of Republican talking points.

Whatever you are trying to say, please do it with fact/links. I have no interest in what comes out of your keyboard.

I will leave you with one thought, moving from the working class poor to the lower middle income the citizen is still a food stamp user. Hardly a move upward by the American standards of upward mobility.

Now I am going to repost the OP alone. Either direct your remarks to the OP, or get out of the thread because I am ready to take you to the Mods with an Off Topic disruption charge. Got that corporate lackey?

Your failure to either read my reply or understand my reply (I don't know which one it is) is not my fault. I absolutely addressed the points in the OP and in the article but maybe an example is needed so that you will understand my points.

Lets take hypothetical Joe that was born into a family in the bottom fifth of the society in terms of wealth. Joe grows up, gets a job, raises a family and eventually ends up in the bottom second or third fifth of the society in terms of wealth. Now then, Joe certainly isn't among the 17% that ended up in the top 2/5's of the wealth hierarchy in the US that your PEW article talks about. BUT...... Joe is in a higher wealth bracket than what he was born into. Our hypothetical Joe was upwardly mobile and did improve his lot in life. Your OP (and your point) fails to recognize that upwardly mobility, all you want to talk about is the fact that he didn't make it into the top 2/5.
By the way, as long as people divide wealth into 5 quin-tiles, there will always be equal numbers in each quin-tile, exactly 20% in each one. That's how math works.

P.S.
I'm not a Republican. Republicans are too liberal for my tastes.

P.S.S.
Feel free to report me to the mods if you want to look foolish.

You are splitting hairs here, and have missed the point of this thread. Do I have to repost the OP for you again? Probably wouldn't understand it anyway. Your posts speak for themselves. You are just another righty wing-nut, probably a guy whose family ignores him so you vent on the net. We are done here. You have accomplished your goal, for whatever your reason, and destroyed this friendly little thread. Hope you are pleased with yourself.

 

[alan1]

You never had any respect for me, and after reading reading your posts, I have none for a guy whose posts are repetition of Republican talking points.

Whatever you are trying to say, please do it with fact/links. I have no interest in what comes out of your keyboard.

I will leave you with one thought, moving from the working class poor to the lower middle income the citizen is still a food stamp user. Hardly a move upward by the American standards of upward mobility.

Now I am going to repost the OP alone. Either direct your remarks to the OP, or get out of the thread because I am ready to take you to the Mods with an Off Topic disruption charge. Got that corporate lackey?

Your failure to either read my reply or understand my reply (I don't know which one it is) is not my fault. I absolutely addressed the points in the OP and in the article but maybe an example is needed so that you will understand my points.

Lets take hypothetical Joe that was born into a family in the bottom fifth of the society in terms of wealth. Joe grows up, gets a job, raises a family and eventually ends up in the bottom second or third fifth of the society in terms of wealth. Now then, Joe certainly isn't among the 17% that ended up in the top 2/5's of the wealth hierarchy in the US that your PEW article talks about. BUT...... Joe is in a higher wealth bracket than what he was born into. Our hypothetical Joe was upwardly mobile and did improve his lot in life. Your OP (and your point) fails to recognize that upwardly mobility, all you want to talk about is the fact that he didn't make it into the top 2/5.
By the way, as long as people divide wealth into 5 quin-tiles, there will always be equal numbers in each quin-tile, exactly 20% in each one. That's how math works.

P.S.
I'm not a Republican. Republicans are too liberal for my tastes.

P.S.S.
Feel free to report me to the mods if you want to look foolish.

You are splitting hairs here, and have missed the point of this thread. Do I have to repost the OP for you again? Probably wouldn't understand it anyway. Your posts speak for themselves. You are just another righty wing-nut, probably a guy whose family ignores him so you vent on the net. We are done here. You have accomplished your goal, for whatever your reason, and destroyed this friendly little thread. Hope you are pleased with yourself.

The words highlighted in blue above show your use of insult instead of debate and you want to accuse me destroying a thread? I addressed your opinion and your response is to levy insults.
Now, look at the part in green, according to the rules of this board, bringing family into the discussion is not allowed. Oddly enough, I am not using my mod powers to spank you for that.
Technically speaking, your post #41 in this thread has an image challenging moderators, which is also against the rules, and I let that one slide as well.

You made a post, I refuted it and pointed out your flawed premise, your response is insult rather than discussion or debating my points. No discussion on your part to address my points. Guess which one of us rendered the thread "destroyed"?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Freddo, can you explain to the op how the concepts of upward mobility and government dependency are mutually exclusive?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

And, the next thing you will have us believe is that the 1% are "job creaters!"

Thank you for highlighting the real problem: a Soviet style public "education" system that teaches envy and hatred. A real educational system would teach what prosperity and wealth are and how to go about acquiring it. In better system we'd meet businessmen and find out how they operate. We'd read the Berkshire Hathaway annual reports

Your envy will never get you anywhere in life

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Oddball]

Freddo, can you explain to the op how the concepts of upward mobility and government dependency are mutually exclusive?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

And, the next thing you will have us believe is that the 1% are "job creaters!"

1) Seems you overlooked that the federal gubmint holds nearly 30% of that total, so the division is off by a longshot.

2) Little doubt that 10% would control a vast majority of the land anyways, as a vast amount of the total is under cultivation/ranching, and I can't imagine that there's much more of the population in those fields, to the extent that they'd be holding big enough tracts of land to make it economically feasible.

Was there any other point to your silly graph?

 

[Beachboy]

Freddo, can you explain to the op how the concepts of upward mobility and government dependency are mutually exclusive?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

And, the next thing you will have us believe is that the 1% are "job creaters!"

Thank you for highlighting the real problem: a Soviet style public "education" system that teaches envy and hatred. A real educational system would teach what prosperity and wealth are and how to go about acquiring it. In better system we'd meet businessmen and find out how they operate. We'd read the Berkshire Hathaway annual reports

Your envy will never get you anywhere in life

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I have been fortunate to enjoy a pretty comfortable life. My father was an exec for a commercial airline, the benefits and lifestyle were wonderful. As an exec intern myself, I can afford a home near the beach. I know I am damn fortunate. But, as child in an upwardly mobile family, I pretty much expected life to turn out OK. As an independent voter now, and even as a liberal in my youth I truely appreciated my opportunities.

When we talk governments and values, we always seem to ignore the true nature of human beings. We really are a rotten species rewarding greed over the Golden Rule. Raping the planet. And, we are always in a war somewhere. I read some years ago that there are always about two dozen wars going on somewhere around the planet at all times.

What I am saying is that if we want to change "the system" we are going ot have to change people first. When I switched from Democrat to Republican, I realized that our culture would be raped by the world if we ever lost a war. Doesn't matter what we as a nation did wrong, many are ready to take it all from us, if given a chance. That is the law of the jungle and human nature. We need to accept that it is who we are as a species. As a business person, I believe we must first acknowledge a problem before we can even consider solutions. Look at the weather, floods, fires, and tornados as we enter hurricane season, yet we still deny global warming. Frankly, I think we are getting what we deserve as a planet. But, I do not think it is "Revelations," I think it is human stupidity.

As an independent voter, I keep coming back to the words of Winston Churchill. "If you are a conservative at age twenty, you have no heart. If you are a liberal at age fifty, you have no brain."

Now I watch the "Everything for everyone" liberals and find they do not understand the concept of limited resources or hard-ball politics. Sure, I like the simple ideology of everyone having all the basics and more. It is easy, and requires little thought.

Then I think of our soldiers, government leaders, police and fire who keep us safe everyday so liberals can espouse their simplistic, naive politics without any understanding of the practicality.

Who was it that said "If we redistribute the wealth in America the same people will have all their money back within a year." I don't think this system is going to change, unless we want to reprogram everyone.

Obviously, that would be a worse nightmare than what we have now.

Sounds great. Warms your heart.
But, nothing will ever happen, except maybe sell you a Coke.​

 

[asterism]

And, the next thing you will have us believe is that the 1% are "job creaters!"

Thank you for highlighting the real problem: a Soviet style public "education" system that teaches envy and hatred. A real educational system would teach what prosperity and wealth are and how to go about acquiring it. In better system we'd meet businessmen and find out how they operate. We'd read the Berkshire Hathaway annual reports

Your envy will never get you anywhere in life

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I have been fortunate to enjoy a pretty comfortable life. My father was an exec for American Air Lines, the benefits and lifestyle were amazing. As an independent now, and even as a liberal in my youth I appreciated my good fortune.

When we talk governments and values, we always seem to ignore the true nature of human beings. We really are a rotten bunch rewarding greed over the Golden Rule. And, we are always in a war somewhere. I read some years ago that there are always about two dozen wars going on around the planet at all times.

What I am saying is that if we want to change "the system" we are going ot have to change people first. When I switched from Democrat to Republican, I realized that our culture would be raped by the world if we ever lost a war. Doesn't matter what we as a nation did wrong, many are ready to take it all from us, if given a chance. That is the law of the jungle and human nature.

As an independent voter, I keep coming back to the words of Winston Churchill. "If you are a conservative at age twenty, you have no heart. If you are a liberal at age fifty, you have no brain."

Now I watch the "Everything for everyone" liberals and find they do not understand the concept of limited resources. Sure, I like the simple ideology of everyone having all the basics and more. It is easy, and requires little thought.

Then I think of our soldiers, government leaders, police and fire who keep us safe everyday so liberals can espouse their simplistic politics without any understanding of the reality of hard-ball politics.

Who was it that said "If we redistribute the wealth in America the same people will have all the money back within a year." I don't think this system is going to change, unless we want to reprogram everyone. Obviously, a worse nightmare than what we have now.

It's amazing when people who have benefited greatly from the success of their parents find fault with others doing the same things for their kids.

 

[Beachboy]

The OP

Last Friday night it was discussed on Bill Maher's Real Time that America's implied promise that if you worked hard you would own a home, and you could send your children to college is no longer true. This link is to a Time Magazine article that was quoted.

This hit me hard, and causes me to seek out your opinion.

Why the U.S. is No Longer the Land of Opportunity | TIME.com

"This week’s cover story in TIME by Rana Foroohar, titled What Ever Happened to Upward Mobility?, examines the opportunity gap in America and why it has gotten so uneven. A recent study from the Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult. It now appears, as Foroohar points out, that a number of recent studies have shown that it is now easier to move up the income ladder in Europe than it is in America. So much for the land of the opportunity."

​

 

[alan1]

None of your post addresses the comments I made to your OP and the subject matter of this thread. Tis not me that is dis-railing this thread, it is you.

I'll say it again, just because one born into the bottom quintile doesn't make it into the top two quintiles dose not mean that they are not upwardly mobile. They could have moved into the 2nd or 3rd quintile, which is an upwardly mobile move.

 

[Oddball]

And, the next thing you will have us believe is that the 1% are "job creaters!"

Thank you for highlighting the real problem: a Soviet style public "education" system that teaches envy and hatred. A real educational system would teach what prosperity and wealth are and how to go about acquiring it. In better system we'd meet businessmen and find out how they operate. We'd read the Berkshire Hathaway annual reports

Your envy will never get you anywhere in life

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I have been fortunate to enjoy a pretty comfortable life. My father was an exec for a commercial airline, the benefits and lifestyle were wonderful. As an exec intern myself, I can afford a home near the beach. I know I am damn fortunate. But, as child in an upwardly mobile family, I pretty much expected life to turn out OK. As an independent voter now, and even as a liberal in my youth I truely appreciated my opportunities.

When we talk governments and values, we always seem to ignore the true nature of human beings. We really are a rotten species rewarding greed over the Golden Rule. Raping the planet. And, we are always in a war somewhere. I read some years ago that there are always about two dozen wars going on somewhere around the planet at all times.

What I am saying is that if we want to change "the system" we are going ot have to change people first. When I switched from Democrat to Republican, I realized that our culture would be raped by the world if we ever lost a war. Doesn't matter what we as a nation did wrong, many are ready to take it all from us, if given a chance. That is the law of the jungle and human nature. We need to accept that it is who we are as a species. As a business person, I believe we must first acknowledge a problem before we can even consider solutions. Look at the weather, floods, fires, and tornados as we enter hurricane season, yet we still deny global warming. Frankly, I think we are getting what we deserve as a planet. But, I do not think it is "Revelations," I think it is human stupidity.

As an independent voter, I keep coming back to the words of Winston Churchill. "If you are a conservative at age twenty, you have no heart. If you are a liberal at age fifty, you have no brain."

Now I watch the "Everything for everyone" liberals and find they do not understand the concept of limited resources or hard-ball politics. Sure, I like the simple ideology of everyone having all the basics and more. It is easy, and requires little thought.

Then I think of our soldiers, government leaders, police and fire who keep us safe everyday so liberals can espouse their simplistic, naive politics without any understanding of the practicality.

Who was it that said "If we redistribute the wealth in America the same people will have all their money back within a year." I don't think this system is going to change, unless we want to reprogram everyone.

Obviously, that would be a worse nightmare than what we have now.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib-Qiyklq-Q]Coca Cola Commercial - I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing (In Perfect Harmony) - 1971 - YouTube[/ame]

Sounds great. Warms your heart.
But, nothing will ever happen, except maybe sell you a Coke.​

Ah, so you're motivated by guilt.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

 

[Beachboy]

The American people believe they can grow up in a shack, and die in a mansion. Gradients of improvement are not what people believe the American Dream is all about. As the source in the OP points out a person in the bottom 20% economically only has a 17% chance of making it into the top 40%. That is the subject we are addressing here, not gradients of improvement.

Did I mention that I mow my own lawn and care for the landscaping myself every Saturday? There is a humbling reason for this that makes me feel good about myself. It is a family thing, my dad, grandfather, and great grandfather, and great, great grandfather all mowed their own lawns and cared for their yards. My children will do the same. A good sweat teaches a lesson about hard work in the hot sun. It helps keep it real.

 

[Beachboy]

Thank you for highlighting the real problem: a Soviet style public "education" system that teaches envy and hatred. A real educational system would teach what prosperity and wealth are and how to go about acquiring it. In better system we'd meet businessmen and find out how they operate. We'd read the Berkshire Hathaway annual reports

Your envy will never get you anywhere in life

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I have been fortunate to enjoy a pretty comfortable life. My father was an exec for a commercial airline, the benefits and lifestyle were wonderful. As an exec intern myself, I can afford a home near the beach. I know I am damn fortunate. But, as child in an upwardly mobile family, I pretty much expected life to turn out OK. As an independent voter now, and even as a liberal in my youth I truely appreciated my opportunities.

When we talk governments and values, we always seem to ignore the true nature of human beings. We really are a rotten species rewarding greed over the Golden Rule. Raping the planet. And, we are always in a war somewhere. I read some years ago that there are always about two dozen wars going on somewhere around the planet at all times.

What I am saying is that if we want to change "the system" we are going ot have to change people first. When I switched from Democrat to Republican, I realized that our culture would be raped by the world if we ever lost a war. Doesn't matter what we as a nation did wrong, many are ready to take it all from us, if given a chance. That is the law of the jungle and human nature. We need to accept that it is who we are as a species. As a business person, I believe we must first acknowledge a problem before we can even consider solutions. Look at the weather, floods, fires, and tornados as we enter hurricane season, yet we still deny global warming. Frankly, I think we are getting what we deserve as a planet. But, I do not think it is "Revelations," I think it is human stupidity.

As an independent voter, I keep coming back to the words of Winston Churchill. "If you are a conservative at age twenty, you have no heart. If you are a liberal at age fifty, you have no brain."

Now I watch the "Everything for everyone" liberals and find they do not understand the concept of limited resources or hard-ball politics. Sure, I like the simple ideology of everyone having all the basics and more. It is easy, and requires little thought.

Then I think of our soldiers, government leaders, police and fire who keep us safe everyday so liberals can espouse their simplistic, naive politics without any understanding of the practicality.

Who was it that said "If we redistribute the wealth in America the same people will have all their money back within a year." I don't think this system is going to change, unless we want to reprogram everyone.

Obviously, that would be a worse nightmare than what we have now.

Ah, so you're motivated by guilt.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Wrong, not motivated by guilt. Motivated by winning, and leisure time. Money will pretty much take care of itself if you are properly motivated.

Evidently,you have missed a major concept about life. "Where does it say that life is fair?" Winners make their own breaks, and do not believe in luck.

 

[alan1]

The American people believe they can grow up in a shack, and die in a mansion. Gradients of improvement are not what people believe the American Dream is all about. As the source in the OP points out a person in the bottom 20% economically only has a 17% chance of making it into the top 40%. That is the subject we are addressing here, not gradients of improvement.

There are gradients of improvement that are upward mobility. Your thread title says, "Upward mobility has ended.", it is a false premise.

Did I mention that I mow my own lawn and care for the landscaping myself every Saturday? There is a humbling reason for this that makes me feel good about myself. It is a family thing, my dad, grandfather, and great grandfather, and great, great grandfather all mowed their own lawns and cared for their yards. My children will do the same. A good sweat teaches a lesson about hard work in the hot sun. It helps keep it real.

And I pay somebody to do the landscaping/lawn mowing.
I pay him so that he can have "A good sweat teaches a lesson about hard work in the hot sun. It helps keep it real." and so that he can have income towards his upward mobility. I've had enough lessons about sweating in the hot summer sun.
If you think mowing grass and sweating is emotionally valuable to you, come mow my yard, I'll even pay you.

 

[Oddball]

The American people believe they can grow up in a shack, and die in a mansion. Gradients of improvement are not what people believe the American Dream is all about.

Speak for yourself before you can pretend to speak for 350+ million people you don't know....From what' I've seen, you have more than you can handle doing so little as that.

As the source in the OP points out a person in the bottom 20% economically only has a 17% chance of making it into the top 40%. That is the subject we are addressing here, not gradients of improvement.

Onoez!....People who try to do well will fail a lot...Oh, the horror!

Did I mention that I mow my own lawn and care for the landscaping myself every Saturday? There is a humbling reason for this that makes me feel good about myself. It is a family thing, my dad, grandfather, and great grandfather, and great, great grandfather all mowed their own lawns and cared for their yards. My children will do the same. A good sweat teaches a lesson about hard work in the hot sun. It helps keep it real.

Yeah, you already said that your primary emotional driver is guilt...So what?

 

[asterism]

I have been fortunate to enjoy a pretty comfortable life. My father was an exec for a commercial airline, the benefits and lifestyle were wonderful. As an exec intern myself, I can afford a home near the beach. I know I am damn fortunate. But, as child in an upwardly mobile family, I pretty much expected life to turn out OK. As an independent voter now, and even as a liberal in my youth I truely appreciated my opportunities.

When we talk governments and values, we always seem to ignore the true nature of human beings. We really are a rotten species rewarding greed over the Golden Rule. Raping the planet. And, we are always in a war somewhere. I read some years ago that there are always about two dozen wars going on somewhere around the planet at all times.

What I am saying is that if we want to change "the system" we are going ot have to change people first. When I switched from Democrat to Republican, I realized that our culture would be raped by the world if we ever lost a war. Doesn't matter what we as a nation did wrong, many are ready to take it all from us, if given a chance. That is the law of the jungle and human nature. We need to accept that it is who we are as a species. As a business person, I believe we must first acknowledge a problem before we can even consider solutions. Look at the weather, floods, fires, and tornados as we enter hurricane season, yet we still deny global warming. Frankly, I think we are getting what we deserve as a planet. But, I do not think it is "Revelations," I think it is human stupidity.

As an independent voter, I keep coming back to the words of Winston Churchill. "If you are a conservative at age twenty, you have no heart. If you are a liberal at age fifty, you have no brain."

Now I watch the "Everything for everyone" liberals and find they do not understand the concept of limited resources or hard-ball politics. Sure, I like the simple ideology of everyone having all the basics and more. It is easy, and requires little thought.

Then I think of our soldiers, government leaders, police and fire who keep us safe everyday so liberals can espouse their simplistic, naive politics without any understanding of the practicality.

Who was it that said "If we redistribute the wealth in America the same people will have all their money back within a year." I don't think this system is going to change, unless we want to reprogram everyone.

Obviously, that would be a worse nightmare than what we have now.

Ah, so you're motivated by guilt.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Wrong, not motivated by guilt. Motivated by winning, and leisure time. Money will pretty much take care of itself if you are properly motivated.

Evidently,you have missed a major concept about life. "Where does it say that life is fair?" Winners make their own breaks, and do not believe in luck.

Says the guy with a rich dad.

 

[Beachboy]

The American people believe they can grow up in a shack, and die in a mansion. Gradients of improvement are not what people believe the American Dream is all about. As the source in the OP points out a person in the bottom 20% economically only has a 17% chance of making it into the top 40%. That is the subject we are addressing here, not gradients of improvement.

There are gradients of improvement that are upward mobility. Your thread title says, "Upward mobility has ended.", it is a false premise.

Did I mention that I mow my own lawn and care for the landscaping myself every Saturday? There is a humbling reason for this that makes me feel good about myself. It is a family thing, my dad, grandfather, and great grandfather, and great, great grandfather all mowed their own lawns and cared for their yards. My children will do the same. A good sweat teaches a lesson about hard work in the hot sun. It helps keep it real.

And I pay somebody to do the landscaping/lawn mowing.
I pay him so that he can have "A good sweat teaches a lesson about hard work in the hot sun. It helps keep it real." and so that he can have income towards his upward mobility. I've had enough lessons about sweating in the hot summer sun.
If you think mowing grass and sweating is emotionally valuable to you, come mow my yard, I'll even pay you.

Thanks, but I have enough to do with what I already care for in the yard. I think the point you are missing here is that you do not disagree with me, you disagree with a Time Magazine cover story. Here again is that link. Why the U.S. is No Longer the Land of Opportunity | TIME.com

The reason is that the Occupy Wall Street is really not about income inequality, but about opportunity inequality, and it’s the later that appears to be hitting all-time highs now. This week’s cover story in TIME by Rana Foroohar, titled What Ever Happened to Upward Mobility?, examines the opportunity gap in America and why it has gotten so uneven. A recent study from the Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult. It now appears, as Foroohar points out, that a number of recent studies have shown that it is now easier to move up the income ladder in Europe than it is in America. So much for the land of the opportunity.

My source is Time Magazine, and your source is.......well......you. Got any links to nationally reputable sources in your pocket that support what you post?

 

[Beachboy]

Ah, so you're motivated by guilt.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Wrong, not motivated by guilt. Motivated by winning, and leisure time. Money will pretty much take care of itself if you are properly motivated.

Evidently,you have missed a major concept about life. "Where does it say that life is fair?" Winners make their own breaks, and do not believe in luck.

Says the guy with a rich dad.

Ahhhh...... AFFLUENCE, an easy thing to get hooked on. But, to those of us who are raised with it, we can afford to have any perspective we choose without relying on "struggle" to get us where we want to go. We are given the gift of perceiving life as a "challenge" rather than "struggle." We also get the best educations, so we are well prepared to deal with difficulties of the real world. No doubt, comfort is helpful when handling stress.

Which coincidentally brings us back to the topic in this thread. Upward mobility has slowed. Only 17% of those in the bottom economic bracket will die in a mansion. I find that to be a catastrophic ending of the American dream!

What was the question they asked liberal Shirley MacLaine? Oh yes, "How can you justify a political opinion that veers into Socialism, and then have millions in the bank? MacLaine responded, "I do not want to cut back my standard of living. I want to raise everyone elses!" I'm with Shirley. And certainly I am not going to apologize for being a member of an economically successful family. I appreciate it, and enjoy being able to give back to America rather than be a taker. I do not take it for granted.

 

[asterism]

Wrong, not motivated by guilt. Motivated by winning, and leisure time. Money will pretty much take care of itself if you are properly motivated.

Evidently,you have missed a major concept about life. "Where does it say that life is fair?" Winners make their own breaks, and do not believe in luck.

Says the guy with a rich dad.

Ahhhh...... AFFLUENCE, an easy thing to get hooked on. But, to those of us who are raised with it, we can afford to have any perspective we choose without relying on "struggle" to get us where we want to go. We are given the gift of perceiving life as a "challenge" rather than "struggle." We also get the best educations, so we are well prepared to deal with difficulties of the real world. No doubt, comfort is helpful when handling stress.

Which coincidentally brings us back to the topic in this thread. Upward mobility has slowed. Only 17% of those in the bottom economic bracket will die in a mansion. I find that to be a catastrophic ending of the American dream!

What was the question they asked liberal Shirley MacLaine? Oh yes, "How can you justify a political opinion that veers into Socialism, and then have millions in the bank? MacLaine responded, "I do not want to cut back my standard of living. I want to raise everyone elses!" I'm with Shirley. And certainly I am not going to apologize for being a member of an economically successful family. I appreciate it, and enjoy being able to give back to America rather than be a taker. I do not take it for granted.

You're tone deaf.

The problem isn't that you want to raise everyone else's standard of living, the problem is that the means by which you want to do so will not work. Perhaps if you earned your own affluence you'd understand that.