The U. S. is no longer the land of opportunity. Upward mobility has ended.

[Beachboy]

Last Friday night it was discussed on Bill Maher's Real Time that America's implied promise that if you worked hard you would own a home, and you could send your children to college is no longer true. This link is to a Time Magazine article that was quoted.

This hit me hard, and causes me to seek out your opinion.

Why the U.S. is No Longer the Land of Opportunity | TIME.com

"This week’s cover story in TIME by Rana Foroohar, titled What Ever Happened to Upward Mobility?, examines the opportunity gap in America and why it has gotten so uneven. A recent study from the Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult. It now appears, as Foroohar points out, that a number of recent studies have shown that it is now easier to move up the income ladder in Europe than it is in America. So much for the land of the opportunity."

​

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

As government increases, opportunity decreases.

 

[Flopper]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

 

[Beachboy]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

As this chart from Wiki clearly shows even if you did finish college, the value of it has diluted over the years because there are so many college graduates out there.

​

In my opinion another factor is that business demands employees produce results. I have heard that many employers expect an employee to make the company five times as much money as the employee is paid.

Some people do not have that natural skill, and college is not going to give them that, unless they start their own business to put themselves through school.

There are also those who waste their education on "basket weaving" or "website design." Got to tell you those financial and accounting courses were tough on me. But, that is why I sit in an air-conditioned office instead of waiting tables.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

So are you saying a H.S. Grad should spend 50K-250K for a B.S., M.S. or a PhD so he/she can get a job that was already sent overseas as part a Free Trade Agreement?

How long you think it'll take to pay off 50K as a WalMart employee?



I want to thank all US Vets for making that possible.

 

[Beachboy]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

So are you saying a H.S. Grad should spend 50K-250K for a B.S., M.S. or a PhD so he/she can get a job that was already sent overseas as part a Free Trade Agreement?

How long you think it'll take to pay off 50K as a WalMart employee?

I want to thank all US Vets for making that possible.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This is the dilemma we are all addressing in this thread.

My wife and some friends were talking just the other day, "Would you have a child, if the best they could hope for was work in a fast food restaurant throughout their life? Most of us said "no."

"Quality of life" was the top priority amongst our group. Which is precisely what the OP shows is quickly slipping away in the United States.

It is in the OP, "Pew Charitable Trust found that
Americans born in the a family that was one of the
bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17%
chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult."

If Pew is right, this is really bad. Looks to me like we are losing the biggest part of what made America great.




.
​

 

[editec]

America is developing an hourglass class structure.

The middle class is losing members to the both the lower and upper classes.

I see no obvious solution to this development.

The wage gap between higher skilled jobs and lower skilled jobs has never been higher.

And as women have gone to work, and as working couples tend to marry into roughly the same socio-economic groups, that development makes the affluent working class even MORE affluent and the non affluent working classes even more economically at a disadvantage.

There is no solution to this except a drastic rethink in social contracts and that AIN'T about to happen, far as I can see.

Our class structure will begin to look somewhat mid-eval as the middle class becomes smaller and smaller segment of the population.

Its does not bode well for the representational government systems we have today, that's for damned sure.

Feudalism and democracy do not do well together.

 

[Flopper]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

As this chart from Wiki clearly shows even if you did finish college, the value of it has diluted over the years because there are so many college graduates out there.

​

In my opinion another factor is that business demands employees produce results. I have heard that many employers expect an employee to make the company five times as much money as the employee is paid.

Some people do not have that natural skill, and college is not going to give them that, unless they start their own business to put themselves through school.

There are also those who waste their education on "basket weaving" or "website design." Got to tell you those financial and accounting courses were tough on me. But, that is why I sit in an air-conditioned office instead of waiting tables.

My grandson is starting in USC this fall. The family doesn't have much money but they've been able to save a bit plus he's working summers. His tuition and fees will be about $45,000 a year. Add in room and board and the cost for 4 years will be about $250,000 less $25,000 in scholarships and about the same in college savings. So he will walkout out of college with a $200,000 college loan.

The kid is very good in math and wants to major in math education, but the size of the college loan is pushing him toward an engineering degree. I wished he would stick with math education because he would be wonderful math teacher but his college loan payment would be about $1770/mo for 30 years.

College is so damn expensive kids have to go for the degrees that will allow them to make the big bucks regardless of their talents or interest. There is something wrong with this. We tell kids to pursue a field that their good at and they like. Then it's off to college to pursue a degree that makes the money they need to payoff their college loan before they retire.

 

[Oddball]

There's lots of upward mobility if you're a politician, bureaucrat, or someone who has their head up the ass of a politician and/or bureaucrat.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Last Friday night it was discussed on Bill Maher's Real Time that America's implied promise that if you worked hard you would own a home, and you could send your children to college is no longer true. This link is to a Time Magazine article that was quoted.

This hit me hard, and causes me to seek out your opinion.

Why the U.S. is No Longer the Land of Opportunity | TIME.com

"This week’s cover story in TIME by Rana Foroohar, titled What Ever Happened to Upward Mobility?, examines the opportunity gap in America and why it has gotten so uneven. A recent study from the Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult. It now appears, as Foroohar points out, that a number of recent studies have shown that it is now easier to move up the income ladder in Europe than it is in America. So much for the land of the opportunity."

​

We have become a Plutocracy. Hence, the best and the brightest have a more difficult time climbing the ladder of success. The well connected and the wealthy get a boast, one which allows even the barely competent to start on a level a poor but bright person must work hard simply to attain.

 

[Annie]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

Several things I disagree with. College is NOT for everyone, indeed as another poster made clear in another post, the number of college degree holders has diluted the expected return in many cases.

Since the 1960's at least, the push in education is to turn all public schools into prep schools, that caused a majority of students to be left behind. Since then, universities have responded by dumbing down their requirements, eventually focusing on the important stuff, like suites for all underclassmen and organic options in the cafes.

Today the typical high school student can do trig and calc, which wasn't true for the typical high school student 40 years ago. Much has to do with low cost scientific calculators, but that is life. On the other hand, they are extremely limited in reading, writing, and analytical skills, something their great grandparents had little problems with.

While there is evidence that some school districts are trying to provide opportunities for students who do not wish to be in prep classes, but instead learning trades or business related classes, they had been removed from most curriculum in the past 20 years or so. Auto, woodworking, electronics, along with basic accounting, typing, shorthand were readily available for many years.

Distributive education courses are making a comeback after years of absence. This gives jrs and srs in good standing a chance to apprentice in fields they find interesting. Cosmetology, auto mechanics, retail, culinary, hospitality, all and more are possibilities. All of these can be fields entered into upon high school graduation. If the student wants to 'kick it up' the DL classes put them ahead in applications for specific programs, such as Culinary Arts Institutes, etc.

The emphasis on STEM has also resulted in college bound students lacking both knowledge and interest in what has been considered the norm of the educated. Literature, philosophy, and what's general called classical education. Yes, there were great engineers that also understood whom Cincinnatus was and what Genghis Khan accomplished. There was a 'culture' of the educated.

 

[blackhawk]

The only way a shot at upward mobility ends is when you stop trying.

 

[freedombecki]

Last Friday night it was discussed on Bill Maher's Real Time that America's implied promise that if you worked hard you would own a home, and you could send your children to college is no longer true. This link is to a Time Magazine article that was quoted.

This hit me hard, and causes me to seek out your opinion.

Why the U.S. is No Longer the Land of Opportunity | TIME.com

"This week’s cover story in TIME by Rana Foroohar, titled What Ever Happened to Upward Mobility?, examines the opportunity gap in America and why it has gotten so uneven. A recent study from the Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult. It now appears, as Foroohar points out, that a number of recent studies have shown that it is now easier to move up the income ladder in Europe than it is in America. So much for the land of the opportunity."

​

​

When our European forbears got here, our native American forbears taught them food ways and how not to starve and/or shot 'em. It was literally dig up a garden bed with a home-forged shovel or sharp stone tied onto a hardwood branch, and nothing was easy.

Schools can't teach a younger generation survival skills unless the teachers are accomplished survivalists. And the way the country is going right now, they ought to be.

/philosophical view

 

[Beachboy]

The only way a shot at upward mobility ends is when you stop trying.

I am a big promoter of positive mental attitude, but this graph from my post #4 shows the facts.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that what could get you a job with a high school education 50 years ago, now takes a college education because of the competition.

Hence, the promise of a better life with hard work, and an even better life for your children is slipping away.

Again right out of the OP, "Pew Charitable Trust found that Americans born in the a family that was one of the
bottom fifth in terms of wealth, only had a 17% chance of making into the top two-fifths as an adult."

I find this a slap in the face of Americanism for all of us. It is sad, and I don't think any of us can do much about it.

​

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

My grandson is starting in USC this fall. The family doesn't have much money but they've been able to save a bit plus he's working summers. His tuition and fees will be about $45,000 a year. Add in room and board and the cost for 4 years will be about $250,000 less $25,000 in scholarships and about the same in college savings. So he will walkout out of college with a $200,000 college loan.

That's his choice. There is absolutely no reason for him to go to a school that expensive. He can pay a tenth of that by going to community college for his first two years and/or going to a school out of state. California universities are absurdly expensive.

 

[Beachboy]

My grandson is starting in USC this fall. The family doesn't have much money but they've been able to save a bit plus he's working summers. His tuition and fees will be about $45,000 a year. Add in room and board and the cost for 4 years will be about $250,000 less $25,000 in scholarships and about the same in college savings. So he will walkout out of college with a $200,000 college loan.

That's his choice. There is absolutely no reason for him to go to a school that expensive. He can pay a tenth of that by going to community college for his first two years and/or going to a school out of state. California universities are absurdly expensive.

Depending on the personality and assertiveness of the young man in question USC could well be the ticket to a permanent good life. I graduated from UCDavis, a very good school, but no USC, Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. When I entered the job market there were only three internships in all of Los Angeles in my field. I was a "B" student, and found myself up against two Yale grads and a Princeton. When those old families started calling their friends to employ a family member, things got serious, REAL FAST. Like it or not, when you get out of college, it is who you know.

I had some great references going into the competition from top execs and board members, but I had one thing they did not which allowed me to walk away with the top prize. In college I had a door-to-door home care products business that I sold when I graduated. It not only paid part of my college, but I was the only candidate who had actually run a business. It did not hurt that I had a couple Fortune 500 execs and board members in my corner, (friends of my dad).

While the cost of a USC degree may be $50,000 more than the cost of a UCDavis degree, I would say it is worth it when you are talking about where a young person starts their career. If the young one has the diligence and personality to get along in the business climate by all means give them the opportunity. The main reason to pick USC is whom your student will be learning from, who their friends will be, and knowing the leaders of tomorrow as friends. People such as Bill Gates, Barack Obama, and Scott Pelley lecture at USC often. That level does not lecture at UCDavis or NON-IVY League schools.

As a footnote, there are no longer any internships in my field in Los Angeles. The few there are, are in New York. There are so many qualified people out there, we do not bother to train. Why should we when we can hire the experience we want with no investment?

By the way, "Yes" I believe it sucks. I believe we as an employer have a responsibility to bring new talent into the industry. We need new ideas working with our philosophy to carry on the company. But, in this economy, no one listens to me.

USC, Alma mater of Steven Spielberg.​

 

[lynn63]

According to the IRS statistics for 2011, there were just as many people with college degrees compared to people with a just a HS education earning the same wages. What this means is there is not many job positions for all these new graduates from college. Another factor is foreign immigrants who are young, already are college educated are coming in large numbers competing with American born college graduates.

Since businesses get a tax incentive to hire foreigners, they are choosing them over American born citizens.

 

[Flopper]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

Several things I disagree with. College is NOT for everyone, indeed as another poster made clear in another post, the number of college degree holders has diluted the expected return in many cases.

Since the 1960's at least, the push in education is to turn all public schools into prep schools, that caused a majority of students to be left behind. Since then, universities have responded by dumbing down their requirements, eventually focusing on the important stuff, like suites for all underclassmen and organic options in the cafes.

Today the typical high school student can do trig and calc, which wasn't true for the typical high school student 40 years ago. Much has to do with low cost scientific calculators, but that is life. On the other hand, they are extremely limited in reading, writing, and analytical skills, something their great grandparents had little problems with.

While there is evidence that some school districts are trying to provide opportunities for students who do not wish to be in prep classes, but instead learning trades or business related classes, they had been removed from most curriculum in the past 20 years or so. Auto, woodworking, electronics, along with basic accounting, typing, shorthand were readily available for many years.

Distributive education courses are making a comeback after years of absence. This gives jrs and srs in good standing a chance to apprentice in fields they find interesting. Cosmetology, auto mechanics, retail, culinary, hospitality, all and more are possibilities. All of these can be fields entered into upon high school graduation. If the student wants to 'kick it up' the DL classes put them ahead in applications for specific programs, such as Culinary Arts Institutes, etc.

The emphasis on STEM has also resulted in college bound students lacking both knowledge and interest in what has been considered the norm of the educated. Literature, philosophy, and what's general called classical education. Yes, there were great engineers that also understood whom Cincinnatus was and what Genghis Khan accomplished. There was a 'culture' of the educated.

There are decent paying jobs out there for kids who opt for a certificate program or community college degree, but the chances are pretty slim of making enough to support a family, a mortgage, and anything close to the "America Dream". That died back in the 20th century.

 

[Flopper]

My grandson is starting in USC this fall. The family doesn't have much money but they've been able to save a bit plus he's working summers. His tuition and fees will be about $45,000 a year. Add in room and board and the cost for 4 years will be about $250,000 less $25,000 in scholarships and about the same in college savings. So he will walkout out of college with a $200,000 college loan.

That's his choice. There is absolutely no reason for him to go to a school that expensive. He can pay a tenth of that by going to community college for his first two years and/or going to a school out of state. California universities are absurdly expensive.

Depending on the personality and assertiveness of the young man in question USC could well be the ticket to a permanent good life. I graduated from UCDavis, a very good school, but no USC, Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. When I entered the job market there were only three internships in all of Los Angeles in my field. I was a "B" student, and found myself up against two Yale grads and a Princeton. When those old families started calling their friends to employ a family member, things got serious, REAL FAST. Like it or not, when you get out of college, it is who you know.

I had some great references going into the competition from top execs and board members, but I had one thing they did not which allowed me to walk away with the top prize. In college I had a door-to-door home care products business that I sold when I graduated. It not only paid part of my college, but I was the only candidate who had actually run a business. It did not hurt that I had a couple Fortune 500 execs and board members in my corner, (friends of my dad).

While the cost of a USC degree may be $50,000 more than the cost of a UCDavis degree, I would say it is worth it when you are talking about where a young person starts their career. If the young one has the diligence and personality to get along in the business climate by all means give them the opportunity. The main reason to pick USC is whom your student will be learning from, who their friends will be, and knowing the leaders of tomorrow as friends. People such as Bill Gates, Barack Obama, and Scott Pelley lecture at USC often. That level does not lecture at UCDavis or NON-IVY League schools.

As a footnote, there are no longer any internships in my field in Los Angeles. The few there are, are in New York. There are so many qualified people out there, we do not bother to train. Why should we when we can hire the experience we want with no investment?

By the way, "Yes" I believe it sucks. I believe we as an employer have a responsibility to bring new talent into the industry. We need new ideas working with our philosophy to carry on the company. But, in this economy, no one listens to me.

USC, Alma mater of Steven Spielberg.​

I'm sure glad, I'm not entering the workforce today. In years past, a college degree in the right field, experience, dedication, hard work, and you could look forward to good money, benefits, and job security. Today, it's all about what can you do for me right now? How much can you add to the bottom line? Employee/Employer loyalty doesn't exist. I read somewhere that a person entering the job market can look forward to 5 to 7 careers in a lifetime and dozens of jobs. Guess I'm old fashion but I don't see this as a good thing.

 

[asterism]

Most people agree that education is the key to upward mobility, yet a college education in America is beyond the financial reach of most low income Americans today. For kids from middle and upper middle class families, savings for college is a possibility. However for a family of low wage earners, saving for college is a pipe dream.

Educational aid today means college loans for most kids that will put them so deep in depth that some will be on social security and still be paying off their college loans. Paying for college today is literally driving people into bankruptcy. Really poor kids, must either be brilliant or have tremendous drive to make it to the upper middle class.

As this chart from Wiki clearly shows even if you did finish college, the value of it has diluted over the years because there are so many college graduates out there.

​

In my opinion another factor is that business demands employees produce results. I have heard that many employers expect an employee to make the company five times as much money as the employee is paid.

Some people do not have that natural skill, and college is not going to give them that, unless they start their own business to put themselves through school.

There are also those who waste their education on "basket weaving" or "website design." Got to tell you those financial and accounting courses were tough on me. But, that is why I sit in an air-conditioned office instead of waiting tables.

My grandson is starting in USC this fall. The family doesn't have much money but they've been able to save a bit plus he's working summers. His tuition and fees will be about $45,000 a year. Add in room and board and the cost for 4 years will be about $250,000 less $25,000 in scholarships and about the same in college savings. So he will walkout out of college with a $200,000 college loan.

The kid is very good in math and wants to major in math education, but the size of the college loan is pushing him toward an engineering degree. I wished he would stick with math education because he would be wonderful math teacher but his college loan payment would be about $1770/mo for 30 years.

College is so damn expensive kids have to go for the degrees that will allow them to make the big bucks regardless of their talents or interest. There is something wrong with this. We tell kids to pursue a field that their good at and they like. Then it's off to college to pursue a degree that makes the money they need to payoff their college loan before they retire.

$250K for a Math degree to be a teacher?

He needs to pick a different college then. Education is so much more than just the name on the degree and a Math teacher should understand a cost/benefit analysis.

It's possible to attain a degree from a good college suitable for a career path as a Math teacher without subsidizing the escalating racket of government loans for higher tuition.