Tom Paine 1949

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Mar 15, 2020
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The Washington Post reports that the Taliban has entered Kabul through four gates to the city, The Afghan “President” is rumored to have fled the country, and the government has apparently collapsed. Twenty years of imperial American intervention lies in ruin.

As sad as this will be for those Afghans who threw their lot in with the American occupiers, this will hopefully be a lesson for arrogant Americans who think U.S. military prowess, and economic bribery of corrupt local pro-Western elites, can replace intelligent diplomacy and a sober foreign policy.

It should be pointed out that after the last Soviet troops withdrew from Afghanistan, the Kabul central government survived for THREE YEARS, while the U.S. continued aid to the jihadists. It survived even after Soviet military aid ended, and even 9 months after the Soviet Union itself collapsed.

It is impossible to overestimate how badly these FOUR decades of wholly typical U.S. stupidity and arrogance served real U.S. interests, and more especially how much they damaged the interests of all Afghan people.

In the last two decades the Afghan army and police, like the U.S. army and U.S. contractors, were mercenaries. The main difference was that the U.S. military and thousands of contractors were usually just rotated in and out, had American homes and families awaiting them decked out with American flags, couldn’t speak the local languages, and were paid infinitely more than Afghan rank and filers, who only wanted to feed their families. Afghan generals and politicians stole most of the money and much of it found its way into foreign bank accounts awaiting this very moment. Another even greater part of it went to bribe Taliban militants not to attack regional government forces.

The MIC arms manufacturers and contractors made great profits supplying the Green Zone fortress state, while turning most of Afghanistan into a testing ground for new U.S. ”anti-terror” weapons systems.

My last comment is that had Trump not proposed withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is unlikely the Biden Administration would have felt it had the political “cover” to finally get the hell out. U.S. ultra-partisan domestic politics, and macho “patriotism,” usually makes intelligent, sober and restrained foreign policy … all but impossible.



A slightly better-than-average article, still too sympathetic to past U.S. policy and the recent Afghan regime, which at least raises a few points about mistaken U.S. military-centered foreign policy:

20-year US intervention in ruins as Taliban enters Kabul – Responsible Statecraft
 
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US intervention in ruins as Taliban enters Kabul

The Washington Post reports that the Taliban has entered Kabul through four gates to the city, The Afghan “President” is rumored to have fled the country, and the government has all but collapsed. Twenty years of imperial American intervention lies in ruin.

As sad as this will be for those Afghans who threw their lot in with the American occupiers, this will hopefully be a lesson for arrogant Americans who think U.S. military prowess, and economic bribery of corrupt local pro-Western elites, can replace intelligent diplomacy and a sober foreign policy.

It should be pointed out that after the last Soviet troops withdrew from Afghanistan, the Kabul central government survived for THREE YEARS, while the U.S. continued aid to the jihadists. It survived even after Soviet military aid ended, and even 9 months after the Soviet Union itself collapsed.

It is impossible to overestimate how badly these FOUR decades of wholly typical U.S. stupidity and arrogance served real U.S. interests, and more especially how much they damaged the interests of all Afghan people.

In the last two decades the Afghan army and police, like the U.S. army and U.S. contractors, were mercenaries. The main difference was that the U.S. military and thousands of contractors were usually just rotated in and out, had American homes and families awaiting them decked out with American flags, couldn’t speak the local languages, and were paid infinitely more than Afghan rank and filers, who only wanted to feed their families. Afghan generals and politicians stole most of the money and much of it found its way into foreign bank accounts awaiting this very moment. Another even greater part of it went to bribe Taliban militants not to attack regional government forces.

The MIC arms manufacturers and contractors made great profits supplying the Green Zone fortress state, while turning most of Afghanistan into a testing ground for new U.S. ”anti-terror” weapons systems.

My last comment is that had Trump not proposed withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is unlikely the Biden Administration would have felt it had the political “cover” to finally get the hell out. U.S. ultra-partisan domestic politics, and macho “patriotism,” usually makes intelligent, sober and restrained foreign policy … all but impossible.

A slightly better-than-average article, which at least raises a few points about mistaken U.S. military-centered foreign policy:

20-year US intervention in ruins as Taliban enters Kabul – Responsible Statecraft
As I said..there is good money to be made in wars..which is why the right wing chicken hawks are crying about this one ending..
 
Great moments in afghan...


W, is "Osama" a priority?

No. Osama (col tim osman) is not a priority (of the afghan invasion)


Pat Tillman shot by al Qaeda... except pat's fellow army Rangers had shot pat and lied about it, the same lie as 911 where Zionists did it and false flagged it to AQ....

Why did they shoot pat?

Pat was noticing that after taking Kabul and Kandahar, and ditching TNA with axis of evil, there was NO TARGET....

The deployment was JUST SITTING THERE.....

Because col Tim osman was NOT A PRIORITY, but offing Pat Tillman for noticing was....
 
What do you expect when it's the politicians and not the Generals in charge of these 'wars'?
Up until Nagasaki the military conducted the wars. In 1951 Truman fired MacArthur for wanting to nuke North Korea and invade China. Vietnam was a politician/industrial run war. Now Biden is the fall guy for the tragedy in Afghanistan. At the height of the Afghan war there were 3 military contractors for each soldier in the country.
 
What do you expect when it's the politicians and not the Generals in charge of these 'wars'?
Idiotic. The generals advice was followed at almost every step. Recall that neither the Russians nor Chinese were militarily aiding the Taliban, who got most of their weapons by buying U.S. and old Russian weapons on the black market or from Afghan soldiers.

Our generals could not win because neither they nor U.S. politicians nor our geo-strategists had a fucking idea what we were doing there. Well, some did. They cynically played the Military Industrial / Pentagon game! Generals love wars! The MIC loves profits!
 
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The Washington Post reports that the Taliban has entered Kabul through four gates to the city, The Afghan “President” is rumored to have fled the country, and the government has apparently collapsed. Twenty years of imperial American intervention lies in ruin.

As sad as this will be for those Afghans who threw their lot in with the American occupiers, this will hopefully be a lesson for arrogant Americans who think U.S. military prowess, and economic bribery of corrupt local pro-Western elites, can replace intelligent diplomacy and a sober foreign policy.

It should be pointed out that after the last Soviet troops withdrew from Afghanistan, the Kabul central government survived for THREE YEARS, while the U.S. continued aid to the jihadists. It survived even after Soviet military aid ended, and even 9 months after the Soviet Union itself collapsed.

It is impossible to overestimate how badly these FOUR decades of wholly typical U.S. stupidity and arrogance served real U.S. interests, and more especially how much they damaged the interests of all Afghan people.

In the last two decades the Afghan army and police, like the U.S. army and U.S. contractors, were mercenaries. The main difference was that the U.S. military and thousands of contractors were usually just rotated in and out, had American homes and families awaiting them decked out with American flags, couldn’t speak the local languages, and were paid infinitely more than Afghan rank and filers, who only wanted to feed their families. Afghan generals and politicians stole most of the money and much of it found its way into foreign bank accounts awaiting this very moment. Another even greater part of it went to bribe Taliban militants not to attack regional government forces.

The MIC arms manufacturers and contractors made great profits supplying the Green Zone fortress state, while turning most of Afghanistan into a testing ground for new U.S. ”anti-terror” weapons systems.

My last comment is that had Trump not proposed withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is unlikely the Biden Administration would have felt it had the political “cover” to finally get the hell out. U.S. ultra-partisan domestic politics, and macho “patriotism,” usually makes intelligent, sober and restrained foreign policy … all but impossible.

A slightly better-than-average article, still naive and far too sympathetic to the U.S., which at least raises a few points about mistaken U.S. military-centered foreign policy:

20-year US intervention in ruins as Taliban enters Kabul – Responsible Statecraft
Let's back up 20 years. Saudi, Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda followers, fled to Afghanistan. The U.S. requested that the then Taliban led government, turn over bin Laden and his followers for prosecution. Per their Islamic custom of protecting guests, they refused and challenged the U.S. to try and take them. The U.S. accepted the challenge. The anti-Taliban Afghanis requested assistance in fighting the Taliban while the U.S. was focusing on weeding out the al Qaeda element. Because of our presence we were forced to go up against the Taliban while continuing our search and destroy efforts against al Qaeda and their supporters.
The intention there was never to "nation build,' but as anti-Taliban Afghanis continued to request our support militarily, our government stayed and supported them militarily and did some positive things in their communities (water, infrastructure, et cetera). Once we killed bin Laden (in Pakistan of all places) and many of his followers, we should have made it clear to the Afghanis that we had accomplished our original mission and just left, but politicians as always butt in to military affairs.
What is needed in the future is, if we have to go to war, let the military do its job WITHOUT CIVILIAN POLITICIAN INTERFERENCE! Because of protests and politicians, the military has been hampered since the Korean conflict. Just tell the Generals to do their damn job and completely destroy the enemy. Whenever we allow the military to be dictated to by the civilians, we continue end in stalemates or withdrawals and only sacrificed precious men and women's lives for nothing.
 
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More than 90% of the Afghan rural population long preferred “Taliban” or local leadership rule to rule by the foreign-supported corrupt central government. Should this 90% of the country be “completely destroyed”?
the polls is BULLSHIT ----the people are intimidated
 
More than 90% of the Afghan rural population long preferred “Taliban” or local leadership rule to rule by the foreign-supported corrupt central government. Should this 90% of the country be “completely destroyed”?
All that I am saying is that if you are going to send in the military to fight a war, completely destroy the enemy, win the damn war, or you've thrown away a lot of men's and women's lives for nothing.
Again, the Taliban government literally "challenged" us to come and take him, if we could.......and we accepted the challenge.
 
LuckyDuck, I get your point. I never opposed the original assistance to the “Northern Alliance” ethnic groups (mostly Uzbeks and Tadzhiks) who with our assistance (and some Russian logistic assistance) drove the Taliban out of Kabul. The hunt for Bin Laden in Afghanistan failed, however.

We had no business militarily in Afghanistan either before that, when we supported BinLaden and gave billions in military aid and even stinger missiles to the fanatic Mujahaddin against the then pro-Soviet Afghan government, or after Bin Laden escaped into Pakistan. The occupation, the surge, the nation building was always doomed.

The best chance of modernizing Afghanistan was earlier, before 1988 (or 1992), when the Russian and Soviet Central Asian Muslim soldiers were still there. During Gorbachev’s rule we should have supported the Soviet presence diplomatically and helped the Afghans as they tried to build a moderate state.

They built far more schools and hospitals and liberated far more Afghan women than we ever did. But instead we …

My point is that our involvement in Afghanistan didn’t begin after 9/11 and we had already contributed to jihadi chaos in the country under Reagan.
 
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The Washington Post reports that the Taliban has entered Kabul through four gates to the city, The Afghan “President” is rumored to have fled the country, and the government has apparently collapsed. Twenty years of imperial American intervention lies in ruin.

As sad as this will be for those Afghans who threw their lot in with the American occupiers, this will hopefully be a lesson for arrogant Americans who think U.S. military prowess, and economic bribery of corrupt local pro-Western elites, can replace intelligent diplomacy and a sober foreign policy.

It should be pointed out that after the last Soviet troops withdrew from Afghanistan, the Kabul central government survived for THREE YEARS, while the U.S. continued aid to the jihadists. It survived even after Soviet military aid ended, and even 9 months after the Soviet Union itself collapsed.

It is impossible to overestimate how badly these FOUR decades of wholly typical U.S. stupidity and arrogance served real U.S. interests, and more especially how much they damaged the interests of all Afghan people.

In the last two decades the Afghan army and police, like the U.S. army and U.S. contractors, were mercenaries. The main difference was that the U.S. military and thousands of contractors were usually just rotated in and out, had American homes and families awaiting them decked out with American flags, couldn’t speak the local languages, and were paid infinitely more than Afghan rank and filers, who only wanted to feed their families. Afghan generals and politicians stole most of the money and much of it found its way into foreign bank accounts awaiting this very moment. Another even greater part of it went to bribe Taliban militants not to attack regional government forces.

The MIC arms manufacturers and contractors made great profits supplying the Green Zone fortress state, while turning most of Afghanistan into a testing ground for new U.S. ”anti-terror” weapons systems.

My last comment is that had Trump not proposed withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is unlikely the Biden Administration would have felt it had the political “cover” to finally get the hell out. U.S. ultra-partisan domestic politics, and macho “patriotism,” usually makes intelligent, sober and restrained foreign policy … all but impossible.



A slightly better-than-average article, still too sympathetic to past U.S. policy and the recent Afghan regime, which at least raises a few points about mistaken U.S. military-centered foreign policy:

20-year US intervention in ruins as Taliban enters Kabul – Responsible Statecraft

This is a failure of the current commander in chief who ignored military advice, abandoned our interpreters, and doomed our allies to be able to claim he met a date certain after missing his COVID vaccination date certain. He could have just continued to drawdown forces without any fanfare instead of proclaiming that as of August 31, 2021, we were surrendering afghanistan.
 
Some think Biden should have left by May 1st, as Trump promised — quietly and peacefully. :rolleyes:
 
This is a failure of the current commander in chief who ignored military advice, abandoned our interpreters, and doomed our allies to be able to claim he met a date certain after missing his COVID vaccination date certain. He could have just continued to drawdown forces without any fanfare instead of proclaiming that as of August 31, 2021, we were surrendering afghanistan.
Makes me think that Obama is the wizard behind Biden's curtain. Obama used to telegraph to the enemy when he was pulling out, also.
It's the subtle things that is the give away.
 
Always partisan, Meister. Never truly thoughtful. And you never talk about the big issues that I tried to go into in my OP. See my comment #18.
 

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