The shit hits the fan...

[Bfgrn]

Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.

While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.

The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals

I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:

"Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...

"...remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.

Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course--both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.

So let us begin anew--remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.

Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms--and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.

Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths and encourage the arts and commerce.

Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah--to "undo the heavy burdens . . . (and) let the oppressed go free."

And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.

All this will not be finished in the first one hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first one thousand days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. ... But let us begin."

Kennedy was a neocon.

His Sec. of Defense oversaw the most disastrously drawn out police action in the history of the United States premised on the Domino Theory.

Get past the myth created by assassination and you are left with the truth - JFK was neocon 101...

I'm sure you continue this false accusation for effect... did you read JFK's American University speech I posted?

Why don't we start here...define a neocon...

BTW, the Vietnam War you refer to:

Vietnam War casualties - USA
1956-1964 401
1965 1,863
1966 6,143
1967 11,153
1968 16,592
1969 11,616
1970 6,081
1971 2,357
1972 641
1973 168
1974-1998 1178

Look up November 22, 1963...

From 16,000 troops at the end of the Kennedy Administration, the U.S. commitment grew to 184,000 troops by the end of 1965 and reached a peak of 537,000 in the last year (1968) of the Johnson Administration

 

[Bfgrn]

As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.

What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.

What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.

Well said... The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...

If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO

 

[DiveCon]

As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.

What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.

What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.

Well said... The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...

If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO

sure thing, peabrain

 

[Annie]

As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.

What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.

What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.

Well said... The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...

If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO

Where? In any of Gailbraith's writings would you find 'pea brain' regarding any that disagreed with him? Oh...

Listen bro, you may have some things to say, but don't put your thoughts in your better's mouths, unless you believe you are their better. Good luck with that.

 

[Bfgrn]

Well said... The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...

If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO

sure thing, peabrain

Hey Dive, better cut down on the length of your posts...geez, what are you writing; an autobiography?

 

[DiveCon]

If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO

sure thing, peabrain

Hey Dive, better cut down on the length of your posts...geez, what are you writing; an autobiography?

i dont waste that much time on morons like you

are you begining to understand yet?

 

[Alpha1]

Irony...

Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...

Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...

Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
Bfgrn

no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again

Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...

Pea brain ? you're no match for me ?

Absolutely ! Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....

 

[DiveCon]

no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again

Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...

Pea brain ? you're no match for me ?

Absolutely ! Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....

i doubt he could LEAD anything
he's nothing more than a follower

 

[Annie]

Well said... The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...

If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO

Where? In any of Gailbraith's writings would you find 'pea brain' regarding any that disagreed with him? Oh...

Listen bro, you may have some things to say, but don't put your thoughts in your better's mouths, unless you believe you are their better. Good luck with that.

bump, I guess there isn't a response. You used Gailbraith's quotes in vain. Lordy knows, won't be the first great you denigrated in your nonsense.

 

[concept]

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_election

State media said the daughter and four other relatives of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani were released later Sunday but their arrests appeared to be a clear warning from the hardline establishment to a cleric who may be aligning himself with the opposition.

Tehran's streets fell mostly quiet for the first time since a bitterly disputed June 12 presidential election, but cries of "God is great!" echoed again from rooftops after dark, a sign of seething anger at a government crackdown that peaked with at least 10 protesters' deaths Saturday.

Rasfanjani's relatives were arrested but later released. All is not too calm and we'll see how this little slice of terror affects the situation.

IMO I'd like to see some assitance to the protestors.

Iran didn't seem to have a problem aiding AQ in Iraq and turn about is fair play.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.

What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.

What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.

Well said... The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...

please stop calling moronic males "she"
it is insulting to women that are not morons

Can't help ya buddy... The ideological left represents the feminine perspective... and if that offends some women, then I suggest that they get busy trying to distance themselves from those who work so hard, each and everyday, to make the feminine perspective into something which isn't so... irrational.

The non-irrational ladies know exactly what I'm talking about... and I doubt they're offended in the slightest.

 

[Bfgrn]

no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again

Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...

Pea brain ? you're no match for me ?

Absolutely ! Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....

Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...

BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...

 

[DiveCon]

Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...

Pea brain ? you're no match for me ?

Absolutely ! Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....

Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...

BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...

wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
not a PM
stop lying

 

[Bfgrn]

Pea brain ? you're no match for me ?

Absolutely ! Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....

Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...

BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...

wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
not a PM
stop lying

I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...

 

[DiveCon]

Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...

BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...

wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
not a PM
stop lying

I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...

and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire

 

[Bfgrn]

wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
not a PM
stop lying

I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...

and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire

WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?

 

[DiveCon]

I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...

and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire

WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?

so typical
attacking family members
that is a violation of the board rules

 

[Bfgrn]

and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire

WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?

so typical
attacking family members
that is a violation of the board rules

You're right, that was out of bounds... I am sorry

OK, that's cool. Now you boys go back to just calling EACH other names only.

 

[DiveCon]

WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?

so typical
attacking family members
that is a violation of the board rules

You're right, that was out of bounds... I am sorry

OK, that's cool. Now you boys go back to just calling EACH other names only.

ok
apology accepted

 

[Annie]

This would cause a sea change. Today the Iranian Revolutionary Guard has warned they will crush the protesters, lots of blood already spilled. But with Rafsanjani and Sistani saying the following, there could be a revolution. This is really long, I'm just going to post a bit:

ThreatsWatch.Org: RapidRecon: Regime Change Iran: Movement Seeks to Eliminate 'Supreme Leader' Position

Regime Change Iran: Movement Seeks to Eliminate 'Supreme Leader' Position
[Update at Bottom.]

Folks, this is huge. Huge. A report from Saudi Arabia's al-Arabiya, Iranian clerics seek supreme leader alternative, indicates that Rafsanjani is seeking to eliminate the Supreme Leader. Not just the man, but the position and role presiding over Iranian politics and the Iranian society.

Religious leaders are considering an alternative to the supreme leader structure after at least 13 people were killed in the latest unrest to shake Tehran and family members of Ayatollah Rafsanjani were arrested amid calls by former President Mohammad Khatami for the release of all protesters.

Iran's religious clerks in Qom and members of the Assembly of Experts, headed by former President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, are mulling the formation of an alternative collective leadership to replace that of the supreme leader, sources in Qom told Al Arabiya on condition of anonymity.

Skipping down a bit, here's what they seem to have in mind, obviously a bit sketchy at this point.

Members of the assembly are reportedly considering forming a collective ruling body and scrapping the model of Ayatollah Khomeini as a way out of the civil crisis that has engulfed Tehran in a series of protests,

The discussions have taken place in a series of secret meetings convened in the holy city of Qom and included Jawad al-Shahristani, the supreme representative of Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who is the foremost Shiite leader in Iraq.

An option being considered is the resignation of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as Iran's president following condemnation by the United States and other European nations for violence and human rights violations against unarmed protestors.

This is a huge development. One of the biggest questions I and others have had since the Iranian protests/revolt/revolution began was whether Mousavi would be any different in tangible effect (Hizballah & Hamas support, etc.) than Ahmadinejad and whether Rafsanjani was seeking to sack 'Supreme' Leader Khamenei simply to acquire the powerful position for himself. That question perhaps may have been answered today.

My ears first perked up when word made it through the grapevines over the weekend that Rafsanjani had been meeting with other Ayatollahs and clerics in Qom, and had among them a representative of Iraq's Ayatollah Ali Sistani.

Why? Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in 2007 made two very critical statements: that "I am a servant of all Iraqis, there is no difference between a Sunni, a Shiite or a Kurd or a Christian," and that Islam can exist within a democracy without theological conflict. You will never hear such words slip past the lips of Iran's Ayatollah Khamenei. Ever....