The Scum Also Rises...Yet Again

[Bullypulpit]

NE - problem is that the Geneva Convetion does not apply here. Agreed that we should be held to higher standards and thats exactly why those few responsible will pay for it, However it seems you guys would rather have it out in front as if it was such a atrocity! Tell me, what would you do if you had a fellow soldier beheaded over there, would you think twice about your actions if you caught one of those bastards?

One attrocity does not justify another, even lesser, attrocity. With the actions taken by the personel at Abu Ghraib, America lost even the pretense of moral superiority. The actions of the barbarians who seem to delight in decapitating their prisoners in no way justifies barbarity on the part of our troops, no matter how insignificant it may be.

In order to even think of winning any sort of war against terrorists, we <b>MUST</b> hold to the highest possible standards of conduct. Ohterwise, the terrorists dictate the terms of engagement and we will lose that battle and that war.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I love those fucking pics! They always give me a nice pick up. Yes it was all those things mentioned but I suppose you haven't heard this yet because you've been around a bunch of handwringing libs.

I suppose the people who hung the bodies from the bridge and beheaded people didn't deserve a little humiliation? Boo fucking hoo, last I heard not one ounce of proof has been given to prove that anybody died as a result of this humiliation, thats right humiliation not torture.

Lets not forget these people were criminals, terrorists, insurgents whatever you want to call them. I don't believe for 1 fucking second that they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time as some claim.

Sounds like maybe you enjoy the thought of being blind-folded, gagged, tied up and beaten. You need some time with a good top man...he'll fix ya right up!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

One attrocity does not justify another, even lesser, attrocity. With the actions taken by the personel at Abu Ghraib, America lost even the pretense of moral superiority.

No we haven't

The actions of the barbarians who seem to delight in decapitating their prisoners in no way justifies barbarity on the part of our troops, no matter how insignificant it may be.

See, even as you try to be a good little lib and condemn america, you still recognize our atrocities are insignificant in comparison. So how have we lost face when our acts are admittedly insignificant?

In order to even think of winning any sort of war against terrorists, we <b>MUST</b> hold to the highest possible standards of conduct. Ohterwise, the terrorists dictate the terms of engagement and we will lose that battle and that war.

In order to think of winning we need to be unified as a society. Why are libs on the side of the enemies of the civilized world?

 

[Avatar4321]

One attrocity does not justify another, even lesser, attrocity. With the actions taken by the personel at Abu Ghraib, America lost even the pretense of moral superiority. The actions of the barbarians who seem to delight in decapitating their prisoners in no way justifies barbarity on the part of our troops, no matter how insignificant it may be.

In order to even think of winning any sort of war against terrorists, we <b>MUST</b> hold to the highest possible standards of conduct. Ohterwise, the terrorists dictate the terms of engagement and we will lose that battle and that war.

How the heck is putting underwear on someones head barbaric? How the heck does it even begin to compare with sawing someones head off their body? This isnt even a mild Frat initiation and yet its barbaric? The left has been pushing far more barbaric things on the American people at Universities for the past 50 years.

 

[Bullypulpit]

<center><h1><a href=http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/10362015.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp>The Scum Also Rises...Part 2</a></h1></center>

<blockquote><h2>Prisoner abuse was worse than officials admitted, documents show</h2>

By Drew Brown

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - More than two months after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq shocked the world, an official memo described how military intelligence officers witnessed further prisoner abuse in Baghdad but were threatened to prevent them from reporting it.

The memo was the most recent in a collection of government documents released Tuesday. It was dated June 25 and written by Vice Adm. Lowell E. Jacoby, who directs the Defense Intelligence Agency. Lowell described how two DIA officers, assigned as interrogators to a special operations unit designated as Task Force 6-26, witnessed evidence of prisoner abuse while working at an unnamed "temporary detention facility" in Baghdad.

The extensive collection of government documents suggests that abuse of detainees in Iraq and elsewhere was more widespread and systematic than senior officials have admitted publicly. The officials repeatedly have tried to characterize abuse last year at Abu Ghraib as an isolated series of incidents. A small number of low-ranking soldiers already have been prosecuted or are awaiting trial in these cases.

The documents released Tuesday, however, reveal that senior U.S. officials, who claimed they were unaware of the abuse, were repeatedly informed of accusations of abuse through official channels. They also suggest that these and other reports of abuse failed to trigger investigations into what increasingly appears to have been a widespread pattern of prisoner abuse in Afghanistan, Iraq and at the Guantanamo Bay naval base in Cuba. </blockquote>

In a memo sent upranks by Vice Admiral Lowell Jacoby, the abuse of prisoners was described, but only as a "problem", not as a matter requiring corrective action. This memo went to Stephen J. Cambone, Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence. Mr. Cambone reports to Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. So knowledge of ongoing abuse of prisoners in Iraq goes all the way up to Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, who...did...nothing.

In condoning what was torture, nothing more or less, the Bush adminstration only further stiffened resistance to US forces in Iraq and further jeopardized the lives of any US troops who should fall into guerilla hands. The aggressive indifference of the Administration to these reports is simply a measure of the unfitness to command, at any level, of the members of this Administration.

 

[Bullypulpit]

How the heck is putting underwear on someones head barbaric? How the heck does it even begin to compare with sawing someones head off their body? This isnt even a mild Frat initiation and yet its barbaric? The left has been pushing far more barbaric things on the American people at Universities for the past 50 years.

Again, sir, your ignorance betrays you. Were nothing more than such antics involved, I would say nothing on the matter.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Ok, so where does it explain the part of being worse?

Still I am yet to see you say a single think about what the troops must face over there, not a single bit of compassion, and you want us to take you serious?
C'mon Bully, you are a left wing hater and you know it!

Are you really that stupid? I know you're not, so why do you pretend? Do something besides call me silly peurile names...You know, like actually address the issues instead of parroting the crap Fox News and Newsmax spout all day, everyday.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Are you really that stupid? I know you're not, so why do you pretend? Do something besides call me silly peurile names...You know, like actually address the issues instead of parroting the crap Fox News and Newsmax spout all day, everyday.

Good dodge, nutsuck.

 

[Avatar4321]

Again, sir, your ignorance betrays you. Were nothing more than such antics involved, I would say nothing on the matter.

Well if more antics are involved prove it. We have yet to see any sort of proof. Why the heck do you libs refuse to back up anything you claim

Regardless of the matter, it still does not matter because a German court has no authority over this situation anyway.

 

[nakedemperor]

I love those fucking pics! They always give me a nice pick up. Yes it was all those things mentioned but I suppose you haven't heard this yet because you've been around a bunch of handwringing libs.

I suppose the people who hung the bodies from the bridge and beheaded people didn't deserve a little humiliation? Boo fucking hoo, last I heard not one ounce of proof has been given to prove that anybody died as a result of this humiliation, thats right humiliation not torture.

Lets not forget these people were criminals, terrorists, insurgents whatever you want to call them. I don't believe for 1 fucking second that they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time as some claim.

We got rid of the stockades long ago. Criminals, no matter how egregious their transgressions, will be punished by the letter of the law. Justice is without emotion. Criminals will stand trial and be punished with the sterility and severity that the justice system requires.

Just because they commited atrocities doesn't mean we can justify commiting, as Bully said, less severe atrocities. WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT. This is despicable hyporcricy; we say we're spreading Democracy, democracy predicated upon a system of justice, not vengeance. That is what Jihad is about. Blood money. Eye for and eye, etc. These men should serve their sentences, die in prison, whatever, but when we lower our standards because of how pissed off we are (and smiling for pictures while fondling a prisoner's genitalia doesn't seem to me like anger, it seems like cruel sport) we do in fact lose the moral high ground.

The concept of "right humiliation" has no place in our democracy, nor should it have any place in an Iraqi democracy.

 

[nakedemperor]

Well if you think that why must you constantly bring it up? I mean if you are certain that they are punishable crimes by law, then whats the worry?

Sorry could you clarify the last sentence John? I'm not sure I get your meaning.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Any reply to that, Bully??? That was another one of your hopelessly idiotic comments with no semblance of reality.

 

[nakedemperor]

I'm just suggesting that if you feel the guilty will justly pinished, what is the point of even discussing the issue any longer?

Yes, it was a black eye for our troops but it's over now, it hardly is a representation of the overall good the troops do.

Well I don't agree with the premise of the OP, it (and other posts in this venue) detail how this sort of behavior was seen and in some cases encouraged by military and government high ups. This is the issue. You can't really do anything about soldiers who make bad mistakes...it happens. But you can gain back some credibility and moral high ground if you go to and address the source of the problem, rather than just the micro-level manifestations.

Plus the issue for some people here is that Abu Ghraib was a GOOD thing, like in OCA's opinion. As I find that standpoint disgusting and unacceptable, I feel compelled to talk about it from that perspective.

 

[nakedemperor]

Fair enough! I can undersatnd that. Let me just ask though, how many times have you ever been in a situation where you thought about what you would like to do if you caught up with a person that you are an enemy with? I know from my own standpoint that had I watched one of my fellow soldiers die at the hands of one of these fanatic psychos, I would certainly think of some evil things had I had the opportunity! I'm not saying it's right but put yourself in the shoes of the accused for a moment.

I couldn't possibly say I wouldn't have done what these soldiers did for certain, but my gut tells me I probably wouldn't have participated. I can see how it might happen, and while there is an explanation for the behavior, I don't think it justifies it; especially since the "tactics" we are refering too were allegedly approved above the soldiers in question.

 

[Avatar4321]

Just because they commited atrocities doesn't mean we can justify commiting, as Bully said, less severe atrocities. WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.

Yeah, but here is the problem. You guys havent proven there were any attrocities. Ive been following this since you guys started whining about it the most you have shown is prisoners were stripped naked and made to wear underwear on their head. You guys can claim there is more abuse. You can claim there are some "Secret" documents that show how evil this all is and how President Bush and Rumsfeld are the masterminds. But until you produce documentation, no one is obligated to believe anything you say.

Second assuming we concede that the actions of the soldiers are atrocities your problem is we aren't committing them. Some soldiers are. and they are being punished because even their small "atrocities" are an afront to us. You see we are better than that. We are punishing those responsible. The terrorists will praise those responsible for sawing off an innocent victims head.

You are just upset because you cant connect the administration with that and thats all you want. You care nothing for justice, just your petty desire for political power.

 

[nakedemperor]

Yeah, but here is the problem. You guys havent proven there were any attrocities. Ive been following this since you guys started whining about it the most you have shown is prisoners were stripped naked and made to wear underwear on their head.

Attocities might not be the right word. But when the floor is wet with the blood of prisoners who suffer dog bites and their bodies are smeared with feces and their faces are mashed into the genitalia of other prisoners...well, I think we can all (OCA excluded) agree this is "crue and unusual punishment".

You guys can claim there is more abuse. You can claim there are some "Secret" documents that show how evil this all is and how President Bush and Rumsfeld are the masterminds. But until you produce documentation, no one is obligated to believe anything you say.

First of all, Rumsfeld "took full responsibility" for it. Second of all, the implication is that military high-ups and governmental operatives knew about what was going on. I don't know who was involved or how high it went, but regardless, its a problem that needs to be sorted out.

Second assuming we concede that the actions of the soldiers are atrocities your problem is we aren't committing them. Some soldiers are. and they are being punished because even their small "atrocities" are an afront to us. You see we are better than that. We are punishing those responsible. The terrorists will praise those responsible for sawing off an innocent victims head.

Agreed. Like I said, you can't control the mistakes soldiers made, but the memos of late link approval of the disgusting behavior and torture to their superiors. The origin needs to be located.

You are just upset because you cant connect the administration with that and thats all you want. You care nothing for justice, just your petty desire for political power.

Can't argue with that except to say that personally that statement doesn't apply. I care everything for justice. And what happened at Abu Ghraib was not justice. We need to bring justice to the source of the approval of the inhumane tactics and bring the law to bear on it. You're the one politicizing this.

 

[nakedemperor]

Well allegedly is the key word, and we may never know the truth on that one.
However I think there are tactics used to gain knowledge from these people that may be a little harsh and perhaps these people took it a step too far. Personally I can say I probably would took part in it had I been there, thats just the evil bastard that I am, and I probably would of done much worse depending on the situation. I don't agree that it was right, but then again I never claimed to be morally superior to nobody!

Evil is as evil does

 

[freeandfun1]

I couldn't possibly say I wouldn't have done what these soldiers did for certain, but my gut tells me I probably wouldn't have participated. I can see how it might happen, and while there is an explanation for the behavior, I don't think it justifies it; especially since the "tactics" we are refering too were allegedly approved above the soldiers in question.

Often nobody thinks they would do something just before doing it.... my point is, often we say, "I would never....." only later to do it.....

Stress will make people do things. I know I saw a lot of guys do some crazy shit when I was in the military. Stateside guys generally did stuff like get DUI's, get in fights, etc. where overseas they would get frustrated and beat up some local over something. The problem is that the stress builds up and when you are pulling duty at 2 AM and you know that you're only gonna get an hour of sleep before you have to pull some other duty and you're looking to waste time, you think of some pretty stupid shit to do.

The only time I was ever put in a situation of dealing with POWs was during GW1 and those guys were so stunned from all the bombing, you felt sorry for em so you gave em your ham and chicken loaf or pork and rice MRE.... (hee hee).

 

[freeandfun1]

Thats some sound logic there Free! Was it different then than now you think?
that is as far as the kind of POWs.

the difference now is that the guys that are fighting want to be fighting. the iraqi soldiers in GWI didn't want to be there any more than we did. But today, the guys today are coming in from Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, Syria etc. just to fight us. So they are gonna be harder to get info out of or even to get to put their weapons down. They are radicals and when dealing with radicals, sometimes you have to work in a radical way......

 

[freeandfun1]

Yep, thats what I was thinking. do you think you would have a slighlty different opinion of some of those POWs had you been there today?

i'm sure i wouldn't be as nice to them as i was then.....