The Real Problem with America

[hortysir]

Makes sense.
Thanks.
Shalom

 

[Flopper]

You know we spend an awful lot of time arguing back and forth for our chosen Parties, But we are kidding ourselves America. Neither party is the answer to our problems because they are at the core of the problems.

The System is broken. Broken by a constant cycle of Campaigning and Career politicians. Broken because of a 2 party strangle hold on power.

I do not claim to have all the answers but I think 2 very important things that need to happen before America will be heading the right way are:

1 Campaign Finance.
We need to Limit the influence of Money in elections as much as we can. We could start by setting up a way to publicly fiance all campaigns equally. Compel or pay for Network coverage of debates. We should also shorten the campaign time significantly. 2 Years of it means that basically they are never not campaigning.

2 Term Limits.
We must end the career politician. Mainly because people are compelled to act differently when they have to think about re-election then when not. Maybe slightly longer terms but only 1 Term. For Both the President and Congress. No more running for re-election. We also need a more direct tool for removal of People who are not performing up to par, or not living up to their promises. Some kind of Popular Vote of No confidence where if a certain % of Americans. prolly like 3/4's vote no confidence it means we then hold A special Election to replace that person. Be it the President or A Congress person. Maybe let that person then run against the others to try and keep his or her job if he can get the votes.

Like I said I don't claim to have the answers I just know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Neither the Democrats or Republicans Nor anyone working inside our current system has them either, and to continue down our current path is definite National suicide.

I agree but with one change. I would limit campaign spending and contributions. A limit of $100,000 should be enough for any congressman to explain himself to his constituents.

Under our current system, you must either be very wealthy or willing to sell your soul to special interest groups if you want to run for Congress.

 

[antagon]

Too many pages to tell if this has already been mentioned,

But I think our biggest problem is that we're not a producer of goods anymore.
I'm not speculating on whose fault it is that manufacturing has moved away, just that we need it back.
Urban sprawl is eating away any acreage we may have for farming, so we may as well hang that up as it will only get worse.

Who has the money? Who are we borrowing from? = Who has inherited our manufacturing?

well. the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. international competition and efficiency in our industry, the strength of the dollar relative to developing currencies, international outsourcing, higher wage and employment standards, unions, reduction in industrially skilled labor force, a growing services sector and poor government subsidy for heavy industry are among the reasons why manufacturing is only about 10% of our economy and not likely to get noticed in the crowd.

 

[hortysir]

Too many pages to tell if this has already been mentioned,

But I think our biggest problem is that we're not a producer of goods anymore.
I'm not speculating on whose fault it is that manufacturing has moved away, just that we need it back.
Urban sprawl is eating away any acreage we may have for farming, so we may as well hang that up as it will only get worse.

Who has the money? Who are we borrowing from? = Who has inherited our manufacturing?

well. the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. international competition and efficiency in our industry, the strength of the dollar relative to developing currencies, international outsourcing, higher wage and employment standards, unions, reduction in industrially skilled labor force, a growing services sector and poor government subsidy for heavy industry are among the reasons why manufacturing is only about 10% of our economy and not likely to get noticed in the crowd.

Not too sure of the strength of our dollar but, other than that, Rabbi has set me straight on the manufacturing aspect.
Now, how can we increase the number of manufacturing JOBS?
Can we give new plants an incentive to open here, rather than overseas?

 

[Flopper]

Too many pages to tell if this has already been mentioned,

But I think our biggest problem is that we're not a producer of goods anymore.
I'm not speculating on whose fault it is that manufacturing has moved away, just that we need it back.
Urban sprawl is eating away any acreage we may have for farming, so we may as well hang that up as it will only get worse.

Who has the money? Who are we borrowing from? = Who has inherited our manufacturing?

well. the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. international competition and efficiency in our industry, the strength of the dollar relative to developing currencies, international outsourcing, higher wage and employment standards, unions, reduction in industrially skilled labor force, a growing services sector and poor government subsidy for heavy industry are among the reasons why manufacturing is only about 10% of our economy and not likely to get noticed in the crowd.

Not too sure of the strength of our dollar but, other than that, Rabbi has set me straight on the manufacturing aspect.
Now, how can we increase the number of manufacturing JOBS?
Can we give new plants an incentive to open here, rather than overseas?

Sure you can. Replace the antiquated Corporate Tax with one that encourages corporations to build plants here in the US instead of China, Mexico, and Indonesia. We must be one of the few nations on earth that encourages investment abroad.

 

[antagon]

Too many pages to tell if this has already been mentioned,

But I think our biggest problem is that we're not a producer of goods anymore.
I'm not speculating on whose fault it is that manufacturing has moved away, just that we need it back.
Urban sprawl is eating away any acreage we may have for farming, so we may as well hang that up as it will only get worse.

Who has the money? Who are we borrowing from? = Who has inherited our manufacturing?

well. the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. international competition and efficiency in our industry, the strength of the dollar relative to developing currencies, international outsourcing, higher wage and employment standards, unions, reduction in industrially skilled labor force, a growing services sector and poor government subsidy for heavy industry are among the reasons why manufacturing is only about 10% of our economy and not likely to get noticed in the crowd.

Not too sure of the strength of our dollar but, other than that, Rabbi has set me straight on the manufacturing aspect.
Now, how can we increase the number of manufacturing JOBS?
Can we give new plants an incentive to open here, rather than overseas?

the dollar's got a big jump on developing currencies like pesos and rupees. it is crucial to keep some healthy weakness in the dollar, or we'd end up with no industry like thatcher's UK.

obama said he wanted to boost manufacturing and manufacturing jobs. i think he hoped to race the pound and the euro to the bottom for this effect, but the euro and the greek situation has prevailed. i think this is a crucial bit of monetary policy for countries like germany, also a manufacturing powerhouse, which came under pressure of a rapidly strengthening euro. on the relative basis of the euro and dollar alone, a mercedes nearly doubled in price in 5 years, and merc had to swallow some of that to keep cars selling. they're not that nice.

obama does not seem to have a plan b.

i know folks hate subsidy for no good reason, but it works great for france. french military and civilian aerospace outperforms ours in terms of health and strength because of the backing of their taxpayers. if we reapproach subsidy as a deliberate investment, rather than a last-minute cronyistic payout/bailout we could see it through to some positive dividends.

our manufacturing is under pressure from the factors in my first post. over the next decade, these will ease, and renmin-bi will not have the exchange advantage or production power that it has today. that's good news for american manufacturing. i think exposing unionized labor to a considerably more equal playing field with marketized labor will do manufacturing and the unions some good, too.

 

[The Rabbi]

Japan subsidized its industries and look how well off they are. France has a horrible economy. They are right behind Spain and Ireland in unsustainable debt and enduring riots as they raise the retirement age to 62 from 60.
Gov't-Corporate partnerships are always bad news. From Jimmy Carter's Synfuels Corporation to Obama's GM, they are riddled with inefficiencies that make them uncompetitive in the real world.

 

[hortysir]

I hope you two guys ain't full of shit, 'coz I can only take your word(s) for it as I suck at econ, and I'll be the first to admit it.

 

[antagon]

Japan subsidized its industries and look how well off they are. France has a horrible economy. They are right behind Spain and Ireland in unsustainable debt and enduring riots as they raise the retirement age to 62 from 60.
Gov't-Corporate partnerships are always bad news. From Jimmy Carter's Synfuels Corporation to Obama's GM, they are riddled with inefficiencies that make them uncompetitive in the real world.

i missed the memo on japanese industry, i guess. i think that these firms set an example for manufacturers in developed economies. i think japan sets a bar that if the US were attaining in proportion to our government outlay or population, would have precluded any doubts about the future or health of our industrial sector.

france has its issues, but the performance of some of the sectors which the government has wisely aimed to support is not one of them. perhaps, having gone down the pathway of public welfare a few miles too far, they've revisited corporate welfare and managed to find efficiencies which starving american aerospace and automakers have not.

bailouts are explicitly excluded from the formula which i suggested. synfuels was more failed, and by reagan, than it was a failure of carter's on his or its own performance. energy production is a sector i'd suggest we subsidize more heavily, and with deference to new technologies over gulf-tarnishing ones.

 

[The Rabbi]

Japan has been in an economic slump for over 10 years.
Picking and choosing winners and losers by the gov't is a failure of a policy. This has been proven too many times to recount. The Supersonic is just one example.

 

[antagon]

japan's economic slump is tied more directly to their lack of support for their banking sector in the 90s and to the age of their society than it is to any of their national support for their industry. can you draw that connection in france or japan, or do you just aim to point out coincidence?

that US aerospace has no answer to supersonic development efforts coordinated by the rest of the developed world is exactly what i'm talking about, rabbi.

 

[editec]

Too many pages to tell if this has already been mentioned,

But I think our biggest problem is that we're not a producer of goods anymore.
I'm not speculating on whose fault it is that manufacturing has moved away, just that we need it back.
Urban sprawl is eating away any acreage we may have for farming, so we may as well hang that up as it will only get worse.

Who has the money? Who are we borrowing from? = Who has inherited our manufacturing?

well. the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. international competition and efficiency in our industry, the strength of the dollar relative to developing currencies, international outsourcing, higher wage and employment standards, unions, reduction in industrially skilled labor force, a growing services sector and poor government subsidy for heavy industry are among the reasons why manufacturing is only about 10% of our economy and not likely to get noticed in the crowd.

Not too sure of the strength of our dollar but, other than that, Rabbi has set me straight on the manufacturing aspect.
Now, how can we increase the number of manufacturing JOBS?
Can we give new plants an incentive to open here, rather than overseas?

Yes, it's called TARIFFS on IMPORTS.

Best incentive in the world.

The USA used that incentive to promote industrialization in this nation for hundreds of years and it worked beautifully.

 

[Titanic Sailor]

We really need to outlaw government unions, and outlaw government union cash in the election process. We have created an army of Democrat hack government workers from your town hall to DC, and the system needs a solid purging. It's too bad, many good people in government are doing 90% of all of the work. These kids coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan have no job to look forward too because some fat hack Democrat relative is chewing up their slots in the public sector.

Isn't it amazing that all of the six digit folks in government are safe, and they are cutting the little folks in government, cops, teachers, firefighters, and social services, but the hacks keep their outrageous salaries and no show jobs.

Government salaries and benefits need a major review, and you will never get that from any Democrat. They will not threaten their voter base.

 

[antagon]

well. the US is the largest manufacturing nation in the world. international competition and efficiency in our industry, the strength of the dollar relative to developing currencies, international outsourcing, higher wage and employment standards, unions, reduction in industrially skilled labor force, a growing services sector and poor government subsidy for heavy industry are among the reasons why manufacturing is only about 10% of our economy and not likely to get noticed in the crowd.

Not too sure of the strength of our dollar but, other than that, Rabbi has set me straight on the manufacturing aspect.
Now, how can we increase the number of manufacturing JOBS?
Can we give new plants an incentive to open here, rather than overseas?

Yes, it's called TARIFFS on IMPORTS.

Best incentive in the world.

The USA used that incentive to promote industrialization in this nation for hundreds of years and it worked beautifully.

i dont think that tariffs could be employed sufficiently to create jobs in manufacturing, without demolishing trade relations and crippling the consumption base of our economy at the same time.

i was operating a company close to the steel industry when bush levied 6% on foreign steel products. one of the immediate international actions was to react to trade agreements and call bush out on his hypocrisy at the WTO a few months earlier. other industries like agriculture suffered from the international reaction, putting a hit on our trade deficit.

many of the characteristics which rabbi has attributed to subsidy are shown to be characteristic of tariff protection. tariffs do not help businesses improve their position competitively on an international scale. rather, as we see with american heavy industry, tariffs reduce competitive participation in international markets, and the quality of industry and efficiency of manufacture goes with it. nothing about tariffs improves or inspires improvement in the protected industry, it just protects them from real competition which makes businesses better.

 

[The Rabbi]

You are right.
A tariff and a subsidy are really just two sides of the same coin.
If tariffs worked so well E.Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

 

[antagon]

You are right.
A tariff and a subsidy are really just two sides of the same coin.
If tariffs worked so well E.Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

i'll give you that tariffs and subsidy both serve the same end. i just think that tariffs are the lesser of the two, and that subsidy is better than doing nothing as if other countries don't have protectionist or industrial support policies. if you look at where heavy industry like boatyards have gone, it is clear that government supported industries hold the world market, be it korea or norway, etc. we've used other protections which box out competition instead of boost our industry with subsidy. US boatyards are only set up to make our military boats for the most part.