The real fossil fuel problem and alternatives...

[pans trogladyta]

And the first industrial scale North American plant capable of replacing ONE coal fired plant is going on line when?
-------------------------------

Good question, that's why we need more intensive research. It's been too long. Considering it's the only viable long term solution for all the different ways we use energy, it would seem imperative we shorten the time as much as posssible.

Once more.... Polly! we are talking about current viable alternatives, not future tech we may be able to develop in a few decades. Please try and keep up....

Since, by your own posts, there are no viable current alternatives, the only possibilities are future ones.

 

[gslack]

It seems reasonable then that using fossil fuels for transportation, when there are viable alternatives, is foolish. Were we using petroleum only for such things as you list, we would not need to drill off shore, we could provide enough from existing wells onshore.

We have the technology, it is time to terminate the use of petroleum as fuel. Same for coal.

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?

Since most petroleum is burned for fuel, he is quite correct. The other uses for petroleum do not use nearly so much of the supply, hence they would last longer. Also before we used petroleum for some of the things on your list, we used other sources for the same products. perhaps we should seriously consider finding substitues for petroleum?

First post? Wow I get so lucky... Virtually every time i am in a thread for a while with konrad or oldrocks a bran new poster signs up and goes right to that thread..... i must be a new member magnet huh socko....

Gimme a break man, You didn't read the OP your post proves it because neither did the dude your posts are defending...

The fact still remains without petroleum those products do not exist. And there is a huge market for those products. You and the sock army acan try to minimalize the post and its points all you want but it will not work..

Your bullshit is transparent, and so is your asinine excuse... Now go and come back as whoever you really are socko.... have a spine..

 

[pans trogladyta]

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?

Since most petroleum is burned for fuel, he is quite correct. The other uses for petroleum do not use nearly so much of the supply, hence they would last longer. Also before we used petroleum for some of the things on your list, we used other sources for the same products. perhaps we should seriously consider finding substitues for petroleum?

First post? Wow I get so lucky... Virtually every time i am in a thread for a while with konrad or oldrocks a bran new poster signs up and goes right to that thread..... i must be a new member magnet huh socko....

Gimme a break man, You didn't read the OP your post proves it because neither did the dude your posts are defending...

The fact still remains without petroleum those products do not exist. And there is a huge market for those products. You and the sock army acan try to minimalize the post and its points all you want but it will not work..

Your bullshit is transparent, and so is your asinine excuse... Now go and come back as whoever you really are socko.... have a spine..

No answers so you go straight to abuse. as I stated we had other sources for some of those produts. Bird crap for fertilizers and whale oil for kerosene. Also, thanks to George Washinton Carver, we once had organic substitutes for paints, varnishes etc. So my point is valid you just didn't understand what you read.

 

[gslack]

Since most petroleum is burned for fuel, he is quite correct. The other uses for petroleum do not use nearly so much of the supply, hence they would last longer. Also before we used petroleum for some of the things on your list, we used other sources for the same products. perhaps we should seriously consider finding substitues for petroleum?

First post? Wow I get so lucky... Virtually every time i am in a thread for a while with konrad or oldrocks a bran new poster signs up and goes right to that thread..... i must be a new member magnet huh socko....

Gimme a break man, You didn't read the OP your post proves it because neither did the dude your posts are defending...

The fact still remains without petroleum those products do not exist. And there is a huge market for those products. You and the sock army acan try to minimalize the post and its points all you want but it will not work..

Your bullshit is transparent, and so is your asinine excuse... Now go and come back as whoever you really are socko.... have a spine..

No answers so you go straight to abuse. as I stated we had other sources for some of those produts. Bird crap for fertilizers and whale oil for kerosene. Also, thanks to George Washinton Carver, we once had organic substitutes for paints, varnishes etc. So my point is valid you just didn't understand what you read.

No answers? You didn't read the OP so you have no idea what you are crying about there socko...

Whale oil???? Are you serious? You know where whale oil comes from? Whales... THey catch whales, slaughter them, and then boil the blubber down to make various things and one of them being whale oil..

How many ignorant sockpuppets are you guys going to bring on here? Seriously this is the worst one yet......

 

[pans trogladyta]

No answers? You didn't read the OP so you have no idea what you are crying about there socko...

Whale oil???? Are you serious? You know where whale oil comes from? Whales... THey catch whales, slaughter them, and then boil the blubber down to make various things and one of them being whale oil..

How many ignorant sockpuppets are you guys going to bring on here? Seriously this is the worst one yet......

I said we had them, not that we should go back to them. Tell me does the term "strawman" have any meaning for you?

 

[westwall]

Old Fraud is only partially correct. We do indeed need to replace petroleum for transportaion. That is without a doubt neccessary. However the current level of alternative enrgy sources and propulsion systems not to mention energy storage technology is nowhere near as efficient as petroleum based systems.

It is very good to want to change over but at this time it can't work on a large scale. Right now let us assume that a hydrogen fuel cell comes along that actually works. It does everything that we need it to do. How many fueling stations are there in California (the most advanced state when it comes to hydrogen fuel usage) where your hydrogen fuel cell user can get a refill? The answer is a whopping 2. That's right! There is one in Los Angeles and one in the Bay Area.

Just to get the fuelling stations for a fuel cell that currently is not viable would run in the tens of billions of dollars.

So if you wish to pay on average 5 times the cost for every aspect of your life such as food, electricity, water delivery, etc. then yes the technology exists.....but 99.9 % of the people would be bankrupt within a year of implementing it.

It seems reasonable then that using fossil fuels for transportation, when there are viable alternatives, is foolish. Were we using petroleum only for such things as you list, we would not need to drill off shore, we could provide enough from existing wells onshore.

We have the technology, it is time to terminate the use of petroleum as fuel. Same for coal.

Nice try douchebag, why don't you try and read the second post?

Since most petroleum is burned for fuel, he is quite correct. The other uses for petroleum do not use nearly so much of the supply, hence they would last longer. Also before we used petroleum for some of the things on your list, we used other sources for the same products. perhaps we should seriously consider finding substitues for petroleum?

 

[gslack]

No answers? You didn't read the OP so you have no idea what you are crying about there socko...





I said we had them, not that we should go back to them. Tell me does the term "strawman" have any meaning for you?

What in the hell is up with you? you make no sense just like konradv.... look buddy if you want people to take you seriously you have to do better than ignorant ramblings...

 

[Big Fitz]

Old Fraud is only partially correct. We do indeed need to replace petroleum for transportaion. That is without a doubt neccessary. However the current level of alternative enrgy sources and propulsion systems not to mention energy storage technology is nowhere near as efficient as petroleum based systems.

And nobody has ever disagreed with that singular point. What all have disagreed with is the following:

WHAT will replace oil and How fast?

I said we had them (oil substitutes), not that we should go back to them. Tell me does the term "strawman" have any meaning for you?

You do realize that we started using oil so we didn't DEPLETE what oil replaced or it was/is/will be far easier to work with oil than the substitutes, and thereby making life better and more efficient.

I think we've discovered the econazi groupmind.

 

[pans trogladyta]

What in the hell is up with you? you make no sense just like konradv.... look buddy if you want people to take you seriously you have to do better than ignorant ramblings...

Funny how you have no answers, only hot air and verbal abuse.

 

[pans trogladyta]

I said we had them (oil substitutes), not that we should go back to them. Tell me does the term "strawman" have any meaning for you?

You do realize that we started using oil so we didn't DEPLETE what oil replaced or it was/is/will be far easier to work with oil than the substitutes, and thereby making life better and more efficient.

True enough, but, we now need to work up substitutes for the substitute

 

[konradv]

Virtually every time i am in a thread for a while with konrad or oldrocks a bran new poster signs up and goes right to that thread.
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How many times do you need to be told that this isn't about you? It's about ideas, NOT Rep points, thank yous or posting idiosyncrasies. If people are answering your posts more often than others, maybe it's because you post the most errors in need of correction. Reminds me of when I started my job and there was one guy that got paged more than anyone else. I commented that he must really be important. Someone who'd been there longer said, "No, it's because he's never where he's supposed to be"!!!

 

[gslack]

Virtually every time i am in a thread for a while with konrad or oldrocks a bran new poster signs up and goes right to that thread.
------------------------------------------

How many times do you need to be told that this isn't about you? It's about ideas, NOT Rep points, thank yous or posting idiosyncrasies. If people are answering your posts more often than others, maybe it's because you post the most errors in need of correction. Reminds me of when I started my job and there was one guy that got paged more than anyone else. I commented that he must really be important. Someone who'd been there longer said, "No, it's because he's never where he's supposed to be"!!!

Uh huh, keep talking punk... you will screw up and when you do they will ban you... So please keep using your proxy like an idiot....

 

[westwall]

No sane individual will argue that point. However as the AGW conspirators are stealing their mountains of cash there is none left over to do the very neccessary research that needs to be done. Not to mention the rainforest that could be saved etc. etc. etc.

I said we had them (oil substitutes), not that we should go back to them. Tell me does the term "strawman" have any meaning for you?

You do realize that we started using oil so we didn't DEPLETE what oil replaced or it was/is/will be far easier to work with oil than the substitutes, and thereby making life better and more efficient.

True enough, but, we now need to work up substitutes for the substitute

 

[pans trogladyta]

No sane individual will argue that point. However as the AGW conspirators are stealing their mountains of cash there is none left over to do the very neccessary research that needs to be done. Not to mention the rainforest that could be saved etc. etc. etc.

Conspirators? Conspiracy theorists are card carrying members of the tin foil hat brigade.

 

[westwall]

When I say conspirators I refer to the businesses like Goldman Sachs, Chicago Carbon Exchange, ENVEX, Chicago Climate Furtures Exchange, European Climate Exchange, Montreal Climate Exchange, Tienjin Climate Exchange, Indian Climate Exchange and of course Al Gores Generation Investment Management and a whole host of other companies who will use their ability to influence politicians to pass legislation that will allow them to take your money and enrich themselves.

They are not trying to hide, they just assume that you folks are too stupid to figure out that you have been played, and so far they are being proven correct. So no tin hats are neccessary, just blind fools who will ignore any type of evidence that reveals that their guru's are nothing more than corrupt opportunists who will use their political connections to steal your money.

No sane individual will argue that point. However as the AGW conspirators are stealing their mountains of cash there is none left over to do the very neccessary research that needs to be done. Not to mention the rainforest that could be saved etc. etc. etc.

Conspirators? Conspiracy theorists are card carrying members of the tin foil hat brigade.

 

[Big Fitz]

- First you establish the environmental crisis through fraudulent science. (Anthropogenic Global Warming)
- Then you legislate a tax the private sector to fund governmental solutions. (Cap and Trade)
- To assess value of the tax, you find a method to track who is using what and doing what. (Chicago Climate Exchange "Big Board")
- But you have to buy the technology to do this exchange (10% ownership Goldman Sachs, The Joyce Foundation, the Apollo Project, Patent owned by Fannie Mae and Franklin Raines)
- To collect the tax, you focus on limiting the market by shutting down competition to your desired forms of industry (Alternative energy companies and all allied foundations and public works that agree to realign with your new direction)
- Buy off the press or their masters to keep pushing only positive views of the 'crisis' solutions. (NBC's "Green is Universal" week?)

All these parts are 'conspirators'. Some knowingly, other's useful idiots. But it's all based on the same fundamental lie that mankind is harming the planet, and the only way to stop it is to destroy modern society and create some sort of Maoist socio/fascist global governance that no one can escape from and those at the top currently stay permanently entrenched in power, just like the age of Aristocracy. Deigned by Gaia to rule inperpetuity, for they 'get it' and are 'truly enlightened'.

Your playbook is so old, it uses Illuminated Text written by monks on sheepskin and vellum.

 

[konradv]

Uh huh, keep talking punk... you will screw up and when you do they will ban you... So please keep using your proxy like an idiot....
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Ban me for what? Is this one of those boards that supposedly supports free speech until you cross one of the old timers? You're the one that resorts to foul laguage at the drop of a hat. ANYONE, isn't that a TOS violation on most boards? Bring it on, gslack. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

 

[gslack]

Uh huh, keep talking punk... you will screw up and when you do they will ban you... So please keep using your proxy like an idiot....
------------------------------------------

Ban me for what? Is this one of those boards that supposedly supports free speech until you cross one of the old timers? You're the one that resorts to foul laguage at the drop of a hat. ANYONE, isn't that a TOS violation on most boards? Bring it on, gslack. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Oh don't worry punk, I am not a wuss like you, I handle my own... I am not going to go and cry to a mod, I won't have to you make it too obvious.... No ones threatening you junior, I am telling you that if you keep up the bullshit sock or proxy attacks like this, they will eventually do something about you for it.....


Now where is that link liar boy.....

 

[Old Rocks]

Of course our local trolls could actually go to a source for real costs. But that would require a bit of effort, and even a little honestly. Something they have no concept of.

Comparative electrical generation costs - SourceWatch

Comparative costs data: California regulatory agencies (May 2008)
On May 13, 2008, the California Energy Commission and the California Public Utilities Commission released a comparison of the costs of of new generating capacity from various sources. The analysis for the comparison was prepared by Energy and Environmental Economics, Inc., a consulting firm that prepares studies for utilities, governmental regulators, law firms, and non-profit agencies.[1] These estimates include firming resource costs.

Busbar cost in cents per kilowatt-hour in 2008 dollars:

Coal:

Coal Supercritical: 10.554
Coal Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC): 11.481
Coal IGCC with Carbon Capture & Storage (IGCC with CCS): 17.317
Alternatives:

Biogas: 8.552
Wind: 8.910
Gas Combined Cycle: 9.382
Geothermal: 10.182
Hydroelectric: 10.527
Concentrating solar thermal (CSP): 12.653
Nuclear: 15.316
Biomass: 16.485
Busbar means the price of the power leaving the plant. All capital, fuel, and operating costs are taken into account in busbar costs.

The spreadsheet containing these costs can be found at CPUC GHG Modeling.

 

[Old Rocks]

Uh huh, keep talking punk... you will screw up and when you do they will ban you... So please keep using your proxy like an idiot....
------------------------------------------

Ban me for what? Is this one of those boards that supposedly supports free speech until you cross one of the old timers? You're the one that resorts to foul laguage at the drop of a hat. ANYONE, isn't that a TOS violation on most boards? Bring it on, gslack. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Oh don't worry punk, I am not a wuss like you, I handle my own... I am not going to go and cry to a mod, I won't have to you make it too obvious.... No ones threatening you junior, I am telling you that if you keep up the bullshit sock or proxy attacks like this, they will eventually do something about you for it.....


Now where is that link liar boy.....

Now gsuck, nobody cares what is said about you. Not here, not in real life, either.