The Nanking Massacre and Iris Chang's Book The Rape of Nanking

[Tommy Tainant]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

You would need to provide actual examples.

 

[gipper]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

You would need to provide actual examples.

LOL.

Your warmongering asshole leader Churchill demanded that the civilians of Dresden be mass murdered. Was this act a war crime?

Was Dirty Harry’s incineration of 200,000 innocent defenseless civilians, a war crime?

Was the ruthless fire bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass murdering thousands of civilians, a war crime?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-German-Nanking-Diaries-John/dp/0349111413&tag=

In 1937, as the invading Japanese Army closed on Nanking, then the capital of China, all foreigners were ordered to evacuate. One man, a mild 55-year-old German named John Rabe who ran the local Siemens factory, refused on the grounds that it would show a bad example to his Chinese workers. Sending his wife and family to safety, he watched in horror as the Japanese began to wipe out the population. Hastily contacting the tiny remaining community of foreigners, and using the flimsy authority of a pact Hitler had made with the Japanese, Rabe spent months safeguarding and providing refuge for thousands of Chinese, often interposing himself physically between the executioners and their victims. It is estimated that he saved between 250,000 and 300,000 lives by his efforts. And every night, he would write up his diary of these extraordinary events.

This is an excellent eye witness account of the events told from the perspective of a Japanese ally. It shows the complete breakdown of order in Nanking and is quite horrific. It happened, just like the holocaust, and quibbling over the numbers seems to me to be a pointless exercise.

By the way Rabe was a nazi member.

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

You would need to provide actual examples.

LOL.

Your warmongering asshole leader Churchill demanded that the civilians of Dresden be mass murdered. Was this act a war crime?

Was Dirty Harry’s incineration of 200,000 innocent defenseless civilians, a war crime?

Was the ruthless fire bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass murdering thousands of civilians, a war crime?

You mean like the bombing of London, Coventry and Osborne St in my village ?

 

[Vandalshandle]

Once again, the Japanese military government were just a bunch of really nice guys who occupied every Asia country in their efforts to bring the blessings of military dictatorship to their neighbors, but they were misunderstood.

You're not even addressing my arguments. You just keep repeating the Chinese-Communist portrayal of WWII-era Japan.

Just FYI, in the unlikely event that you care about facts, Korea was about to get representation in Japan's legislature, the Diet. Koreans living in Japan could vote. There were Koreans who ran for office in Japan. Tens of thousands of Koreans actually volunteered to serve in the Japanese army, and some of them became officers and commanded Japanese troops. Hundreds of Korean soldiers in the Japanese army received citations for bravery, and some of them are honored at Japan's Yasukuni Shrine, which is Japan's version of our Arlington Cemetery.

Just curious: Do you think North Korea and North Vietnam were better off after the anti-Communist, pro-capitalist Japanese were forced to leave and the Communists took over?

For example, the Korean "comfort girls" who were prostitute slaves were really volunteers who just liked sex a lot.

This subject has already been covered earlier in this thread. Some of the comfort women did in fact volunteer and were in fact paid, but many were not, and that was clearly wrong, as I've already said. Now, if you excoriate Japan over the comfort women, are you equally as hard on the Soviet Union over the fact that Soviet soldiers raped millions of women as the Soviet army made its away across Eastern Europe?

I'm out, Mike. I care too much about history to dignify your fantasies.

 

[gipper]

I take it you didn't read the OP. There were only about 200,000 people in Nanking when the Japanese arrived, so they could not have killed 250,000 to 300,000. The burial records don't support anything even close to that number. Etc., etc., etc.

You're quoting from Rabe's later account. In his initial reports to his government, he put the figure at a much lower number.

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

You would need to provide actual examples.

LOL.

Your warmongering asshole leader Churchill demanded that the civilians of Dresden be mass murdered. Was this act a war crime?

Was Dirty Harry’s incineration of 200,000 innocent defenseless civilians, a war crime?

Was the ruthless fire bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass murdering thousands of civilians, a war crime?

You mean like the bombing of London, Coventry and Osborne St in my village ?

So, again, please try to think logically if that is possible.

The scumbag Churchill bombed Germany cities, prior to Hitler returning the favor. So, you must agree that Churchill was a war criminal who should have been hung.

 

[gipper]

Once again, the Japanese military government were just a bunch of really nice guys who occupied every Asia country in their efforts to bring the blessings of military dictatorship to their neighbors, but they were misunderstood.

You're not even addressing my arguments. You just keep repeating the Chinese-Communist portrayal of WWII-era Japan.

Just FYI, in the unlikely event that you care about facts, Korea was about to get representation in Japan's legislature, the Diet. Koreans living in Japan could vote. There were Koreans who ran for office in Japan. Tens of thousands of Koreans actually volunteered to serve in the Japanese army, and some of them became officers and commanded Japanese troops. Hundreds of Korean soldiers in the Japanese army received citations for bravery, and some of them are honored at Japan's Yasukuni Shrine, which is Japan's version of our Arlington Cemetery.

Just curious: Do you think North Korea and North Vietnam were better off after the anti-Communist, pro-capitalist Japanese were forced to leave and the Communists took over?

For example, the Korean "comfort girls" who were prostitute slaves were really volunteers who just liked sex a lot.

This subject has already been covered earlier in this thread. Some of the comfort women did in fact volunteer and were in fact paid, but many were not, and that was clearly wrong, as I've already said. Now, if you excoriate Japan over the comfort women, are you equally as hard on the Soviet Union over the fact that Soviet soldiers raped millions of women as the Soviet army made its away across Eastern Europe?

I'm out, Mike. I care too much about history to dignify your fantasies.

Yes facts are often hard to accept, by those who prefer lies.

 

[JoeB131]

So your argument must be since the Japanese military was so awful, the US government was justified in committing acts even more awful.

No, my logic is awful things were required to defeat them and prevent them from committing even more Genocide.

Japan instigated the war. Their deaths were 800K military and 2.1MM civilians killed.

China was the victim. Their deaths were 3.75 M military and 20 Million civilian.

Hope you can kind of see the difference here, buddy. Which side was intentionally targeting civilians and which one wasn't.

 

[JoeB131]

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

They were legitimate industrial and military centers... and thereby legitimate targets.

Here's the thing. There are a lot of countries that have found themselves at the receiving end of American violence without just cause. Iraq, Vietnam, the Philippines, Mexico multiple times, They merit sympathy.

Germany and Japan... Not so much.

 

[JoeB131]

You have never studied anything about it. Don’t repeat the lie that you have a degree in History ever again. You clearly have no knowledge or interest in the subject.

Again, I don't take someone seriously when his screen name is a porn fetish genre..

Oh sure, that’s why we needlessly incinerated hundreds of thousands of women and children in atomic horror; because we cared so much about them.

No we incinerated them because their country attacked us and refused to surrender after they had been defeated...

 

[gipper]

So your argument must be since the Japanese military was so awful, the US government was justified in committing acts even more awful.

No, my logic is awful things were required to defeat them and prevent them from committing even more Genocide.

Japan instigated the war. Their deaths were 800K military and 2.1MM civilians killed.

China was the victim. Their deaths were 3.75 M military and 20 Million civilian.

Hope you can kind of see the difference here, buddy. Which side was intentionally targeting civilians and which one wasn't.

So, committing genocide is justifiable in an effort to stop genocide. This is feeble thinking and something I find abhorrent and ignorant. Sadly, many Americans think as you do. Proof the power of the State to indoctrinate, should not be minimized.

 

[gipper]

So your argument must be since the Japanese military was so awful, the US government was justified in committing acts even more awful.

No, my logic is awful things were required to defeat them and prevent them from committing even more Genocide.

Japan instigated the war. Their deaths were 800K military and 2.1MM civilians killed.

China was the victim. Their deaths were 3.75 M military and 20 Million civilian.

Hope you can kind of see the difference here, buddy. Which side was intentionally targeting civilians and which one wasn't.

Wrong. FDR provoked Japan in a desperate attempt to get them to attack. So that he could save his mass murdering buddy Uncle Joe and communism. This resulted in millions of deaths worldwide and decades of tyranny and enslavement for Eastern Europe.

 

[Unkotare]

You have never studied anything about it. Don’t repeat the lie that you have a degree in History ever again. You clearly have no knowledge or interest in the subject.

Again, I don't take someone seriously when........

When your abiding ignorance of history prevents you from defending your position. Yeah, we know.

 

[Unkotare]

.....

No we incinerated them because their country attacked us and refused to surrender after they had been defeated...

So, because a military force attacked a military base of ours (not even on US soil), we dropped atomic bombs on helpless civilians? America is better than that, better than the likes of you.

 

[Unkotare]

.... Which side was intentionally targeting civilians and which one wasn't.

Very deliberately dropping bombs on helpless civilians isn't "intentionally targeting civilians"? Just how stupid are you?

 

[mikegriffith1]

Wrong. FDR provoked Japan in a desperate attempt to get them to attack. So that he could save his mass murdering buddy Uncle Joe and communism. This resulted in millions of deaths worldwide and decades of tyranny and enslavement for Eastern Europe.

Yes, and it also resulted in the Communist takeover of China, which in turn resulted in the deaths of over 30 million Chinese. It also resulted in the Communist takeover of much of Vietnam and the northern half of Korea, tragedies that never would have occurred if the Japanese had remained.

The FDR-Truman apologists here seem to forget, or choose to ignore, that the Chinese Nationalists were getting massive aid from the Soviet Union. They also keep acting like Japan started the Sino-Japanese War in 1937, but this is simply false--even most historians now admit that the Chinese, not the Japanese, started the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. Furthermore, as numerous scholars have documented, it was the Chinese, not the Japanese, who broke the truce (1) by moving four divisions into the area near Shanghai and (2) by attacking the Japanese quarter of Shanghai with two divisions. The record is clear that before the Nationalists attacked, the Japanese were urgently trying to reach a peace deal with the Nationalists because even the Army's general staff did not want to prolong the war in China any further.

Moreover, the Nationalists, not to mention the Communists, showed they had little regard for the lives of their fellow Chinese. Remember that the Nationalists were the ones who killed well over 400,000 Chinese by deliberately breaching the Yellow River dike at Huayuankou in June 1938. A post-war Nationalist commission put the number of dead at 800,000, nearly three times the number of people supposedly killed at Nanking.

 

[gipper]

Wrong. FDR provoked Japan in a desperate attempt to get them to attack. So that he could save his mass murdering buddy Uncle Joe and communism. This resulted in millions of deaths worldwide and decades of tyranny and enslavement for Eastern Europe.

Yes, and it also resulted in the Communist takeover of China, which in turn resulted in the deaths of over 30 million Chinese. It also resulted in the Communist takeover of much of Vietnam and the northern half of Korea, tragedies that never would have occurred if the Japanese had remained.

The FDR-Truman apologists here seem to forget, or choose to ignore, that the Chinese Nationalists were getting massive aid from the Soviet Union. They also keep acting like Japan started the Sino-Japanese War in 1937, but this is simply false--even most historians now admit that the Chinese, not the Japanese, started the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. Furthermore, as numerous scholars have documented, it was the Chinese, not the Japanese, who broke the truce (1) by moving four divisions into the area near Shanghai and (2) by attacking the Japanese quarter of Shanghai with two divisions. The record is clear that before the Nationalists attacked, the Japanese were urgently trying to reach a peace deal with the Nationalists because even the Army's general staff did not want to prolong the war in China any further.

Moreover, the Nationalists, not to mention the Communists, showed they had little regard for the lives of their fellow Chinese. Remember that the Nationalists were the ones who killed well over 400,000 Chinese by deliberately breaching the Yellow River dike at Huayuankou in June 1938. A post-war Nationalist commission put the number of dead at 800,000, nearly three times the number of people supposedly killed at Nanking.

The silly apologists know nothing about you have stated. They stopped learning history after third grade.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Im quoting the publishers promo note. I dont think Rabe makes a claim about numbers in his book. However he does give a first hand account of what happened. To me that clearly shows a war crime was taking place.

Quibbling over the numbers seems to be a pointless exercise.At what point does it stop being an atrocity ?

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

You would need to provide actual examples.

LOL.

Your warmongering asshole leader Churchill demanded that the civilians of Dresden be mass murdered. Was this act a war crime?

Was Dirty Harry’s incineration of 200,000 innocent defenseless civilians, a war crime?

Was the ruthless fire bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass murdering thousands of civilians, a war crime?

You mean like the bombing of London, Coventry and Osborne St in my village ?

So, again, please try to think logically if that is possible.

The scumbag Churchill bombed Germany cities, prior to Hitler returning the favor. So, you must agree that Churchill was a war criminal who should have been hung.

Hitler was already a war criminal due to his actions in Poland. What kind of nonsense are you promoting here ?

 

[gipper]

Okay. Agreed. It was a war crime.

Now simple question for all you statists. If what the Japanese did at Nanking was a war crime, how is it that the ruthless aerial bombardment of German and Japanese defenseless civilians NOT A WAR CRIME?

Please provide concise logical explanations.

You would need to provide actual examples.

LOL.

Your warmongering asshole leader Churchill demanded that the civilians of Dresden be mass murdered. Was this act a war crime?

Was Dirty Harry’s incineration of 200,000 innocent defenseless civilians, a war crime?

Was the ruthless fire bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass murdering thousands of civilians, a war crime?

You mean like the bombing of London, Coventry and Osborne St in my village ?

So, again, please try to think logically if that is possible.

The scumbag Churchill bombed Germany cities, prior to Hitler returning the favor. So, you must agree that Churchill was a war criminal who should have been hung.

Hitler was already a war criminal due to his actions in Poland. What kind of nonsense are you promoting here ?

Agreed.

So if Hitler is a war criminal how is it your beloved Churchill, is not ALSO a war criminal?

Or is it your belief that if your enemy mass murders civilians FIRST, your leaders are justified in ALSO mass murdering civilians in even greater numbers?

Please enlighten me.

 

[JoeB131]

So, committing genocide is justifiable in an effort to stop genocide. This is feeble thinking and something I find abhorrent and ignorant. Sadly, many Americans think as you do. Proof the power of the State to indoctrinate, should not be minimized.

Except last time I checked, there were still Germans and Japanese left after the war. We even kept them from starving to death after they were defeated.

I mean, I know you've avoided military service... but um, yeah,. War is violent. It's why you deal with the people who instigate them harshly.

 

[JoeB131]

Wrong. FDR provoked Japan in a desperate attempt to get them to attack. So that he could save his mass murdering buddy Uncle Joe and communism. This resulted in millions of deaths worldwide and decades of tyranny and enslavement for Eastern Europe.

Wow... now you are going into full crazy... So using peaceful sanctions to not subsidize Japan's genocidal war effort was "provoking" them? Really.

And that black man wanting to ride at the Front of the Bus was provoking the Klan.

And that girl in the short dress was provoking that rapist.

Fuck off and Die.