The Moonbats Of The 9th Circuit

Annie

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Nov 22, 2003
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/18/BAGLFFQENB1.DTL


Court clears school of pushing religion with lesson on Islam
- Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, November 18, 2005

A Contra Costa County school was educating seventh-graders about Islam, not indoctrinating them, in role-playing sessions in which students used Muslim names and recited language from prayers, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday.

The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rejected a lawsuit by two Christian students and their parents, who accused the Byron Union School District of unconstitutionally endorsing a religious practice.

"The Islam program activities were not overt religious exercises that raise Establishment Clause concerns,'' the three-judge panel said, referring to the First Amendment ban on government sanctioning a religion.

During the history course at Excelsior School in the fall of 2001, the teacher, using an instructional guide, told the students they would adopt roles as Muslims for three weeks to help them learn what Muslims believe. Mind you, 3 weeks in middle school to 'play Muslims'. Doesn't make sense to me!

She encouraged them to use Muslim names, recited prayers in class and made them give up something for a day, such as television or candy, to simulate fasting during Ramadan. The final exam asked students for a critique of elements of Muslim culture.

U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton ruled in favor of the school district in 2003, saying that the class had an instructional purpose and that students had engaged in no actual religious exercises.

The appeals court upheld her ruling Thursday in a three-paragraph decision that was not published as a precedent for future cases, which generally is an indication that the court considers the legal issue to be clear from past rulings.

The court cited its 1994 ruling rejecting a suit by evangelical Christian parents in Woodland (Yolo County) who objected to elementary school children reading texts that contained tales and role-playing exercises about witches. In that case, the court said classroom activities related to the texts, which included casting a make-believe spell, were secular instruction rather than religious rituals.

The brevity of Thursday's ruling "underscores the fact that what the district and its teachers did was entirely within the mainstream of educational practice,'' said Linda Lye, attorney for the Byron schools.

Edward White of the Thomas More Center, the attorney in the case for the two children and their parents, said he will ask the full appeals court for a rehearing. He said the panel failed to address his argument that the district violated parents' rights.

"What happened in this classroom was clearly an endorsement of religion and indoctrination of children in the Islamic religion, which would never have stood if it were a class on Christianity or Judaism,'' White said.


E-mail Bob Egelko at [email protected].
 
MissileMan said:
The only Moonbats are the ones who think that this was an endorsement of Islam. I find it hypocritical that a lot of the people who are going to squawk about this are the same people who don't see a moment of prayer every day of the entire school year or the introduction of the Bible into science classes as an endorsement of Christianity.

Do you think the court would rule the same way if children were forced to recite the Lord's Prayer during a unit on the history of Christianity. In fact, do you think they'd rule the same way if the school was even teaching a unit on Christianity.
 
Hobbit said:
Do you think the court would rule the same way if children were forced to recite the Lord's Prayer during a unit on the history of Christianity. In fact, do you think they'd rule the same way if the school was even teaching a unit on Christianity.

No.
 
MissileMan said:
The only Moonbats are the ones who think that this was an endorsement of Islam. I find it hypocritical that a lot of the people who are going to squawk about this are the same people who don't see a moment of prayer every day of the entire school year or the introduction of the Bible into science classes as an endorsement of Christianity.

Sorry, I am not for prayer in the public schools. I really can't see where even 'comparative religions' belong in middle school, in any but the most basic explanations of ancient history, which is not taught or barely taught in most public schools. Explain to me how 3 weeks is not suspect for another agenda? Teaching of the Revolution is 8 days; the Constitution is 3 weeks; and early government is about 10 days.
 
MissileMan said:
The only Moonbats are the ones who think that this was an endorsement of Islam. I find it hypocritical that a lot of the people who are going to squawk about this are the same people who don't see a moment of prayer every day of the entire school year or the introduction of the Bible into science classes as an endorsement of Christianity.

Then you will agree the ACLU is full of moonbats also?

For instance, the ACLU is against teaching the concept of "intelligent design".
 
Kathianne said:
Sorry, I am not for prayer in the public schools. I really can't see where even 'comparative religions' belong in middle school, in any but the most basic explanations of ancient history, which is not taught or barely taught in most public schools. Explain to me how 3 weeks is not suspect for another agenda? Teaching of the Revolution is 8 days; the Constitution is 3 weeks; and early government is about 10 days.

Three weeks does seem a bit long to me, but I don't have access to their lesson plan. I'd also like to know if they cover any of the other religions/cultures in three-week periods. The article leaves out lots of details. Was the teacher a Muslim? Did this instructional guide get snuck into the curriculum by a Muslim activist? Was it a Muslim judge who ruled this was harmless role playing?

What I'm seeing is a continued over-reaction by Christians to anything non-Christian. What are they so afraid of? Is the Christian faith so weak that it can't withstand opposing viewpoints? Are they afraid that without government-assisted bombardment of dogma that the programming might not stick?
 
ScreamingEagle said:
Then you will agree the ACLU is full of moonbats also?

For instance, the ACLU is against teaching the concept of "intelligent design".

Yes, the ACLU has it's share of moonbats.

I don't think the ACLU is wrong for fighting to keep ID out of public schools at this time. You can refer to several threads about ID and creationism to view my reasons why.
 
Normally, I would say that as long as different religions are treated equally, than it's fine. But if you chopped out a three-week lesson on Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, atheism, agnostism, humanism, Mormonism, Sikhism, Wicca, American Indian religion, Druidism, voodoo, Rastafarianism, and all the other minor religions, there would be no time left in school for anything else. Bad idea, IMO, and a bad ruling.

A comparitive religion class would be one thing, but a three-week Muslim indoctrination class is another.
 
MissleMan said:
The only Moonbats are the ones who think that this was an endorsement of Islam. I find it hypocritical that a lot of the people who are going to squawk about this are the same people who don't see a moment of prayer every day of the entire school year or the introduction of the Bible into science classes as an endorsement of Christianity.

MissileMan said:
I don't think the ACLU is wrong for fighting to keep ID out of public schools at this time. You can refer to several threads about ID and creationism to view my reasons why.

No matter what your reasons are, calling others hypocritical and then displaying your own hypocrisy is kinda interesting.
:gross2:
 
ScreamingEagle said:
No matter what your reasons are, calling others hypocritical and then displaying your own hypocrisy is kinda interesting.
:gross2:

And exactly how was I being hypocritical?
 
MissileMan said:
And exactly how was I being hypocritical?

By your statement it appears that you think it is OK to teach that Islam course in school.

But on the other hand - for whatever reason - you think it is NOT OK to teach about ID as you support the ACLU about that.

Why is it OK to teach one set of religious ideas but not another? That is being hypocritical.

Hypocrisy is pretending to be what one is not. You are pretending to be tolerant of religious teachings (as with Islam) but you are not really (as with ID). Your pretense of tolerance appears to be rather selective.
 
ScreamingEagle said:
By your statement it appears that you think it is OK to teach that Islam course in school.

But on the other hand - for whatever reason - you think it is NOT OK to teach about ID as you support the ACLU about that.

Why is it OK to teach one set of religious ideas but not another? That is being hypocritical.

Hypocrisy is pretending to be what one is not. You are pretending to be tolerant of religious teachings (as with Islam) but you are not really (as with ID). Your pretense of tolerance appears to be rather selective.

As I also explained in one of my previous posts, there are some questions that need to be answered before you can allege that this was an attempt to insert Islam into the school curriculum. If you know the answers to those questions, post them, and I will refine my position on the issue. Based on what I've read in this thread, IMO it was more a lesson in culture than religion.
 
MissileMan said:
As I also explained in one of my previous posts, there are some questions that need to be answered before you can allege that this was an attempt to insert Islam into the school curriculum. If you know the answers to those questions, post them, and I will refine my position on the issue. Based on what I've read in this thread, IMO it was more a lesson in culture than religion.

Would you be OK with a three week course on Christianity in every public school where the kids read the Bible in school, hang the 10 Commandments on the walls, adopt names of various saints, say prayers together morning, noon, and afternoon, role play the Stations of the Cross, imitate the breaking of bread and wine, fast for Lent, etc?

Your buddies in the ACLU are totally against such Christian practices as they have ALREADY PROHIBITED Bibles and praying in the schools as well as the exhibition of the 10 Commandments. You couldn't have the class if you wanted it.
 
ScreamingEagle said:
Would you be OK with a three week course on Christianity in every public school where the kids read the Bible in school, hang the 10 Commandments on the walls, adopt names of various saints, say prayers together morning, noon, and afternoon, role play the Stations of the Cross, imitate the breaking of bread and wine, fast for Lent, etc?

Your buddies in the ACLU are totally against such Christian practices as they have ALREADY PROHIBITED Bibles and praying in the schools as well as the exhibition of the 10 Commandments. You couldn't have the class if you wanted it.

I would be for any class that would expose kids to ALL of the major religions, and as many different cultures as they could cram into a school year. IMO, if Christians were willing to let the schools put it ALL out there on a level playing field, the ACLU would be powerless.

BTW, I have no buddies in the ACLU. I'm not a liberal. I'm not a Democrat.
 
MissileMan said:
I would be for any class that would expose kids to ALL of the major religions, and as many different cultures as they could cram into a school year. IMO, if Christians were willing to let the schools put it ALL out there on a level playing field, the ACLU would be powerless.

BTW, I have no buddies in the ACLU. I'm not a liberal. I'm not a Democrat.

If the Christian class would be taught alongside the Muslim class, no problemo.
However, that's not going to happen, so can you blame people for getting riled up about the Islam class?

How can they put it all on a level playing field when they have already lost the game? The question is why are the Muslims still allowed to play?
 
ScreamingEagle said:
If the Christian class would be taught alongside the Muslim class, no problemo.
However, that's not going to happen, so can you blame people for getting riled up about the Islam class?

How can they put it all on a level playing field when they have already lost the game? The question is why are the Muslims still allowed to play?

IMO, the problem is with the extremists who would rather pull out their own fingernails than allow non-Christian religions/cultures to be presented to kids in a manner that places them on equal footing with Christianity. If the mainstream sensible Christians would tell their over-zealous, unrealistic brethren to STFU, the over-zealous, unrealistic nutbags in the ACLU would lose all relevance.
 
MissileMan said:
Three weeks does seem a bit long to me, but I don't have access to their lesson plan. I'd also like to know if they cover any of the other religions/cultures in three-week periods. The article leaves out lots of details. Was the teacher a Muslim? Did this instructional guide get snuck into the curriculum by a Muslim activist? Was it a Muslim judge who ruled this was harmless role playing?

What I'm seeing is a continued over-reaction by Christians to anything non-Christian. What are they so afraid of? Is the Christian faith so weak that it can't withstand opposing viewpoints? Are they afraid that without government-assisted bombardment of dogma that the programming might not stick?


I'll only speak for myself. I teach in a public school, I teach comparative religions within ancient history. One must go over polytheism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucionism. I happen to teach them when dealing with, in order: Greece/Rome, Middle Ages, next two are Mesopotamia, India for two, and China. In each case, religion takes 1/2 to 1 lesson-45 minutes. It's only the basics: A large religious difference also appeared in the area of Mesopotamia, monotheism...Teach Judaism-Moses and Abraham-covenant and commandments-Torah. That's it. For Islam: 5 pillars and the founder was Mohammad, no god but 'Allah'-Koran. One of the three monotheistic. Buddhism: Seach for ending of pain; not so much a religion as a philosophy-just try to have 11 year olds get that distinction-karma & motorcycles, no not really! Hinduism: striving for the right life-Dharma. Confucisionism: do the right thing; live a good life; do not bring shame-Confucious and some of his sayings.

Catholocism is dealt with in religion-where it belongs. In social studies, Christianity is taught with the same basic information as the others, of course the students are more familiar with it, so it takes much less time.

BTW, atheism and agnosticism are dealt with in religion, not social studies.
 
Kathianne said:
I'll only speak for myself. I teach in a public school, I teach comparative religions within ancient history. One must go over polytheism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucionism. I happen to teach them when dealing with, in order: Greece/Rome, Middle Ages, next two are Mesopotamia, India for two, and China. In each case, religion takes 1/2 to 1 lesson-45 minutes. It's only the basics: A large religious difference also appeared in the area of Mesopotamia, monotheism...Teach Judaism-Moses and Abraham-covenant and commandments-Torah. That's it. For Islam: 5 pillars and the founder was Mohammad, no god but 'Allah'-Koran. One of the three monotheistic. Buddhism: Seach for ending of pain; not so much a religion as a philosophy-just try to have 11 year olds get that distinction-karma & motorcycles, no not really! Hinduism: striving for the right life-Dharma. Confucisionism: do the right thing; live a good life; do not bring shame-Confucious and some of his sayings.

Catholocism is dealt with in religion-where it belongs. In social studies, Christianity is taught with the same basic information as the others, of course the students are more familiar with it, so it takes much less time.

BTW, atheism and agnosticism are dealt with in religion, not social studies.

IMO, Kathianne, your program is right on - teach the basics of all the major religions of the world, in the larger context of history and culture. Spot on!!! :thup:
 
MissileMan said:
IMO, the problem is with the extremists who would rather pull out their own fingernails than allow non-Christian religions/cultures to be presented to kids in a manner that places them on equal footing with Christianity. If the mainstream sensible Christians would tell their over-zealous, unrealistic brethren to STFU, the over-zealous, unrealistic nutbags in the ACLU would lose all relevance.

You keep referring to some Christians as though they are "extremists" for speaking up about excessive religious teaching it when it involves THEIR kids. Hmm, that kinda reminds me of the "extremist" minority parents who complained about Christian prayer in schools and got it removed.

IMO it is hypocritical liberals/whatever like you - who obviously also exist within the 9th Circuit - who apply two different standards to religious teachings within the schools. You think it's OK for the teacher to push Islam on students for 3 weeks running just because it is "packaged" differently.
 

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