The Left is Lying on Clean Coal

[toobfreak]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

There is no such thing as clean coal. If you ever find any, you might have something to talk about.

Of course there is. Coal is but one of three forms of carbon. Another is diamond: ever hear of a dirty diamond? All that's needed for 100% clean energy from coal is to totally combust it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

“Clean Coal”

An oxymoron if there ever was one.

 

[BULLDOG]

We should make libs drive around in solar powered cars and live in houses powered by the wind. Too bad it's all utopia and unicorns.

You should look into the burning of your straw men for power. I'm not sure how much they would pollute, but there would be no shortage of supply.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

There is no such thing as clean coal. If you ever find any, you might have something to talk about.

You are a liar!

The new coal fired plants have near zero particulate emissions. Your ilk just want to kill an industry that allows people to be self sufficient and in no need of government intrusion.

proof?

"What employees have accomplished here in the last 70 years is nothing short of amazing," French said, addressing a crowd of about 300 workers, former workers and project stakeholders outside Building 5108. "I commend all of you who have carried out this critical mission. For the first five decades you safely stored a majority of the nation's stockpiles of chemical agent weapons, and for the last two decades you have safely destroyed the country's largest chemical weapons stockpile. You made a huge contribution to the attainment of our commitment to the Chemical Weapons Convention Treaty, and this is just one lasting legacy."

Deseret Chemical Depot closes, transitions installation to Tooele Army Depot

Pomeroy noted workers over the years had a part in storing and destroying more than 1.1 million chemical munitions, containing more than 13,600 tons of agent.

"These were terrible weapons and their elimination at DCD has made the world a safer place and most definitely a safer place for the surrounding community," Pomeroy said. "Eliminating these weapons was a team effort that spanned over five generations that included exceptional depot workers that safely stored, made over 24,000 safe deliveries to TOCDF; the Field Office that provided government oversight for the demil operations; the outstanding team from URS and the supporting contractors that operated the TOCDF and destroyed the chemical weapons; and the incredible support of the local community and the State of Utah, and the resolve of our great nation to destroy these terrible weapons."

They used burners and exhaust scrubbing technologies that are now in use on almost every coal fired plant in the US...

I'm impressed with the destruction of those chemical weapons, but methane and CO, which are major causes of concern with coal, didn't seem to be that prevalent in those chemical weapons. When they figure out how to keep from releasing large amounts of methane, and CO, you might be getting closer to your claim of clean coal.

Methane is not a problem and is primarily found in decaying foliage. CO2 is not a pollutant and the earth has been deprived for a long time. The global average CO2 concentration, over its life, has been 1,894ppm, far above today's levels. Even with that level the earth has warmed and then cooled to glaciation. CO2 did nothing to stop it.. Your fears are unfounded in science.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

No, ‘the left’ isn’t.

And coal is dying of natural causes – an anachronism from the 19th Century.

 

[BULLDOG]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

There is no such thing as clean coal. If you ever find any, you might have something to talk about.

Of course there is. Coal is but one of three forms of carbon. Another is diamond: ever hear of a dirty diamond? All that's needed for 100% clean energy from coal is to totally combust it.

Can't slip anything past you, can we? Now, all you have to do is devise some economically feasible way to totally combust it.

 

[BULLDOG]

There is no such thing as clean coal. If you ever find any, you might have something to talk about.

You are a liar!

The new coal fired plants have near zero particulate emissions. Your ilk just want to kill an industry that allows people to be self sufficient and in no need of government intrusion.

proof?

"What employees have accomplished here in the last 70 years is nothing short of amazing," French said, addressing a crowd of about 300 workers, former workers and project stakeholders outside Building 5108. "I commend all of you who have carried out this critical mission. For the first five decades you safely stored a majority of the nation's stockpiles of chemical agent weapons, and for the last two decades you have safely destroyed the country's largest chemical weapons stockpile. You made a huge contribution to the attainment of our commitment to the Chemical Weapons Convention Treaty, and this is just one lasting legacy."

Deseret Chemical Depot closes, transitions installation to Tooele Army Depot

Pomeroy noted workers over the years had a part in storing and destroying more than 1.1 million chemical munitions, containing more than 13,600 tons of agent.

"These were terrible weapons and their elimination at DCD has made the world a safer place and most definitely a safer place for the surrounding community," Pomeroy said. "Eliminating these weapons was a team effort that spanned over five generations that included exceptional depot workers that safely stored, made over 24,000 safe deliveries to TOCDF; the Field Office that provided government oversight for the demil operations; the outstanding team from URS and the supporting contractors that operated the TOCDF and destroyed the chemical weapons; and the incredible support of the local community and the State of Utah, and the resolve of our great nation to destroy these terrible weapons."

They used burners and exhaust scrubbing technologies that are now in use on almost every coal fired plant in the US...

I'm impressed with the destruction of those chemical weapons, but methane and CO, which are major causes of concern with coal, didn't seem to be that prevalent in those chemical weapons. When they figure out how to keep from releasing large amounts of methane, and CO, you might be getting closer to your claim of clean coal.

Methane is not a problem and is primarily found in decaying foliage. CO2 is not a pollutant and the earth has been deprived for a long time. The global average CO2 concentration, over its life, has been 1,894ppm, far above today's levels. Even with that level the earth has warmed and then cooled to glaciation. CO2 did nothing to stop it.. Your fears are unfounded in science.

I'm sure you have at least a dozen or two scientists that agree with you. Every other scientist in the world says you are full of shit.

 

[Aletheia4u]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Coal doesn't produce toxic fumes when burned. Coal beds produces CO2 if it's left untouched. We have to dig up coal to burn as fuel, in order to stop CO2 levels from rising. The CO2 levels started to rise when they closed down coal mines. and so coal has to be burn in order to lower greenhouse gases. And these methane build ups underneath the ground can cause earthquakes if there is nothing around to relieve the pressure.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Wow, you must really enjoy the king of ....well. even the National Inquirer shakes it head on that rag.
Washington Times - Media Bias/Fact Check
Operations Holdings Inc is the owner of The Washington Times, which is owned by the Unification Church of South Korea, through their holding company HSA-UWC (Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity). In 1954, Reverend Sun Myung Moon founded this religious movement in South Korea, which is known for its mass weddings and its members are referred to as “Moonies.” According to a Guardian article, former members have claimed that the Unification Church is religious cult that utilizes brainwashing techniques. The newspaper is funded through a subscription and advertising model.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Coal is a fossil fuel that is rich in carbons and sulfur. To clan the exhaust is all that can be done to "clean" it up, and at that it is solely lacking true "clean" air.

In all fairness, they do have a process called scrubbers. It uses a lot of water and filtering and is expensive to use. It's also time consuming. Yes, it does work and is on par with Natural Gas. But it's just much cheaper and easier to just use Natural Gas in the first place. Clean Coal Fired Electric plants do exist. But the electricity costs more than Natural Gas to generate and that is passed to the consumer. Right now, the cheapest Electricity is a mixture of Natural Gas and Solar and Wind. During the day, Solar takes most of the load. During Windy Days, Wind helps with the load. At night and calm times, Natural Gas is doing the heavy lifting.

Coal has uses but mostly,, it's going to still be used for manufacturing Petroleum Products.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Wow, you must really enjoy the king of ....well. even the National Inquirer shakes it head on that rag.
Washington Times - Media Bias/Fact Check
Operations Holdings Inc is the owner of The Washington Times, which is owned by the Unification Church of South Korea, through their holding company HSA-UWC (Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity). In 1954, Reverend Sun Myung Moon founded this religious movement in South Korea, which is known for its mass weddings and its members are referred to as “Moonies.” According to a Guardian article, former members have claimed that the Unification Church is religious cult that utilizes brainwashing techniques. The newspaper is funded through a subscription and advertising model.

Instead it’s better to solely rely on MSM propaganda with no vetting. That’s what democrats do.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Coal doesn't produce toxic fumes when burned. Coal beds produces CO2 if it's left untouched. We have to dig up coal to burn as fuel, in order to stop CO2 levels from rising. The CO2 levels started to rise when they closed down coal mines. and so coal has to be burn in order to lower greenhouse gases. And these methane build ups underneath the ground can cause earthquakes if there is nothing around to relieve the pressure.

Oh, I agree. Carbon Monoxide is healthy and not toxic, right?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Wow, you must really enjoy the king of ....well. even the National Inquirer shakes it head on that rag.
Washington Times - Media Bias/Fact Check
Operations Holdings Inc is the owner of The Washington Times, which is owned by the Unification Church of South Korea, through their holding company HSA-UWC (Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity). In 1954, Reverend Sun Myung Moon founded this religious movement in South Korea, which is known for its mass weddings and its members are referred to as “Moonies.” According to a Guardian article, former members have claimed that the Unification Church is religious cult that utilizes brainwashing techniques. The newspaper is funded through a subscription and advertising model.

Instead it’s better to solely rely on MSM propaganda with no vetting. That’s what democrats do.

You can stop lying anytime now. The Majority of the population ain't buying this lie. Move on. Come up with another one to give Trump another free ride. Wait 10 minutes, I am sure something else will come up from him that will need to be glazed over.

 

[Rustic]

Coal is a fossil fuel that is rich in carbons and sulfur. To clan the exhaust is all that can be done to "clean" it up, and at that it is solely lacking true "clean" air.

In all fairness, they do have a process called scrubbers. It uses a lot of water and filtering and is expensive to use. It's also time consuming. Yes, it does work and is on par with Natural Gas. But it's just much cheaper and easier to just use Natural Gas in the first place. Clean Coal Fired Electric plants do exist. But the electricity costs more than Natural Gas to generate and that is passed to the consumer. Right now, the cheapest Electricity is a mixture of Natural Gas and Solar and Wind. During the day, Solar takes most of the load. During Windy Days, Wind helps with the load. At night and calm times, Natural Gas is doing the heavy lifting.

Coal has uses but mostly,, it's going to still be used for manufacturing Petroleum Products.

Here in the northern plains, natural gas, oil and coal are going to be around for the foreseeable future. Almost an unlimited supply. Renewables are impractical, expensive and unreliable up here.
I am a, an all of the above guy. But renewables are decades away from being viable, Especially up here in South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming and Montana.
The economy up here is totally dependent on fossil fuels... That is not going to change anytime soon. Fact

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Coal is a fossil fuel that is rich in carbons and sulfur. To clan the exhaust is all that can be done to "clean" it up, and at that it is solely lacking true "clean" air.

In all fairness, they do have a process called scrubbers. It uses a lot of water and filtering and is expensive to use. It's also time consuming. Yes, it does work and is on par with Natural Gas. But it's just much cheaper and easier to just use Natural Gas in the first place. Clean Coal Fired Electric plants do exist. But the electricity costs more than Natural Gas to generate and that is passed to the consumer. Right now, the cheapest Electricity is a mixture of Natural Gas and Solar and Wind. During the day, Solar takes most of the load. During Windy Days, Wind helps with the load. At night and calm times, Natural Gas is doing the heavy lifting.

Coal has uses but mostly,, it's going to still be used for manufacturing Petroleum Products.

Here in the northern plains, natural gas, oil and coal are going to be around for the foreseeable future. Almost an unlimited supply. Renewables are impractical, expensive and unreliable up here.
I am a, an all of the above guy. But renewables are decades away from being viable, Especially up here in South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming and Montana.
The economy up here is totally dependent on fossil fuels... That is not going to change anytime soon. Fact

Funny you should mention that. I guess there must be a Quantum Fence between Wyoming and Colorado. The places you mention don't have population centers. The closest population center would be one city in SD on the east side. Souix Falls has a population of over 2.3 million. From there next population center falls all the way to Rapid City population of about 50,000. The 3rd population center is Box Elder which is the off base housing for Ellsworth AFB just outside of Rapid City at about 7000. Your needs are completely different than our. We have many large population centers and it's real easy to screw up the air quality in many ways.

In Denver, they got the CO2 problem licked but was left with the Ozone problem from fossil fuels burned. Once again, it's nearing being dangerous to small children. This is caused by Coal, Natural Gas and Automobiles. This is why Colorado is leading the charge for Rocky Mountain States for clean air. We either clean it up or start having all our children wear oxygen masks when they go outside. Denver is in an inversion and whatever is in the air sticks around. Even LA gets a breeze blowing in off the ocean once in awhile. Denver doesn't. On a cold day, it just packs down and compresses.

Even in Grand Junction, the air isn't as clean as it once was. Part of it is the wild fires, yes. But those have always been here. The rest was the Coal Fired Plants and Factories. Those have been shut down. That helped. But it's going right back to foul air once again. The cause? Our roads are jammed packed with cars and trucks. And this is with a total population for the valley of about 150,000.

Partly due to Colorado Regulation, more and more Solar and Wind is being used for electric power generation. And Natural Gas is used instead of Coal. The Power Companies used the same BS arguments you are using. But after the conversions, the consumer electric bills have gone down about 20% and the air is less dirty. Yes, it's been a bit painful. But it's also been proven that the Coal Companies can convert to doing other things utilizing the work force that's already built in. They won't. They would rather get people like you to try and make people cry over them. Meanwhile, they are running out with the workers Retirement Funds like thieves in the night.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Wow, you must really enjoy the king of ....well. even the National Inquirer shakes it head on that rag.
Washington Times - Media Bias/Fact Check
Operations Holdings Inc is the owner of The Washington Times, which is owned by the Unification Church of South Korea, through their holding company HSA-UWC (Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity). In 1954, Reverend Sun Myung Moon founded this religious movement in South Korea, which is known for its mass weddings and its members are referred to as “Moonies.” According to a Guardian article, former members have claimed that the Unification Church is religious cult that utilizes brainwashing techniques. The newspaper is funded through a subscription and advertising model.

Instead it’s better to solely rely on MSM propaganda with no vetting. That’s what democrats do.

You can stop lying anytime now. The Majority of the population ain't buying this lie. Move on. Come up with another one to give Trump another free ride. Wait 10 minutes, I am sure something else will come up from him that will need to be glazed over.

What lying? Democrats rely on unvetted MSM propaganda.

 

[Rustic]

Coal is a fossil fuel that is rich in carbons and sulfur. To clan the exhaust is all that can be done to "clean" it up, and at that it is solely lacking true "clean" air.

In all fairness, they do have a process called scrubbers. It uses a lot of water and filtering and is expensive to use. It's also time consuming. Yes, it does work and is on par with Natural Gas. But it's just much cheaper and easier to just use Natural Gas in the first place. Clean Coal Fired Electric plants do exist. But the electricity costs more than Natural Gas to generate and that is passed to the consumer. Right now, the cheapest Electricity is a mixture of Natural Gas and Solar and Wind. During the day, Solar takes most of the load. During Windy Days, Wind helps with the load. At night and calm times, Natural Gas is doing the heavy lifting.

Coal has uses but mostly,, it's going to still be used for manufacturing Petroleum Products.

Here in the northern plains, natural gas, oil and coal are going to be around for the foreseeable future. Almost an unlimited supply. Renewables are impractical, expensive and unreliable up here.
I am a, an all of the above guy. But renewables are decades away from being viable, Especially up here in South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming and Montana.
The economy up here is totally dependent on fossil fuels... That is not going to change anytime soon. Fact

Funny you should mention that. I guess there must be a Quantum Fence between Wyoming and Colorado. The places you mention don't have population centers. The closest population center would be one city in SD on the east side. Souix Falls has a population of over 2.3 million. From there next population center falls all the way to Rapid City population of about 50,000. The 3rd population center is Box Elder which is the off base housing for Ellsworth AFB just outside of Rapid City at about 7000. Your needs are completely different than our. We have many large population centers and it's real easy to screw up the air quality in many ways.

In Denver, they got the CO2 problem licked but was left with the Ozone problem from fossil fuels burned. Once again, it's nearing being dangerous to small children. This is caused by Coal, Natural Gas and Automobiles. This is why Colorado is leading the charge for Rocky Mountain States for clean air. We either clean it up or start having all our children wear oxygen masks when they go outside. Denver is in an inversion and whatever is in the air sticks around. Even LA gets a breeze blowing in off the ocean once in awhile. Denver doesn't. On a cold day, it just packs down and compresses.

Even in Grand Junction, the air isn't as clean as it once was. Part of it is the wild fires, yes. But those have always been here. The rest was the Coal Fired Plants and Factories. Those have been shut down. That helped. But it's going right back to foul air once again. The cause? Our roads are jammed packed with cars and trucks. And this is with a total population for the valley of about 150,000.

Partly due to Colorado Regulation, more and more Solar and Wind is being used for electric power generation. And Natural Gas is used instead of Coal. The Power Companies used the same BS arguments you are using. But after the conversions, the consumer electric bills have gone down about 20% and the air is less dirty. Yes, it's been a bit painful. But it's also been proven that the Coal Companies can convert to doing other things utilizing the work force that's already built in. They won't. They would rather get people like you to try and make people cry over them. Meanwhile, they are running out with the workers Retirement Funds like thieves in the night.

Sioux Falls, South Dakota - Wikipedia

Well, the power plants are up here, and they aren’t hurting a thing.
Wind power is a fucking joke, solar is farther along.
The coal mines are starting to hire a lot more again... Like I said renewables are decades away from being viable

 

[Aletheia4u]

Oh, I agree. Carbon Monoxide is healthy and not toxic, right?

Carbon Monoxide (CO), that it only produce during an incomplete burn. Like a lack of oxygen(O2) during the burning process,produces Carbon Monoxide( CO). But a complete burn that it becomes CO2, which it is a harmless gas. And if coal was so toxic. That it will never have be used for cooking. You cannot cook outdoors or indoors with bio-fuel that is made from GMO sugar cane.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Wow, you must really enjoy the king of ....well. even the National Inquirer shakes it head on that rag.
Washington Times - Media Bias/Fact Check
Operations Holdings Inc is the owner of The Washington Times, which is owned by the Unification Church of South Korea, through their holding company HSA-UWC (Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity). In 1954, Reverend Sun Myung Moon founded this religious movement in South Korea, which is known for its mass weddings and its members are referred to as “Moonies.” According to a Guardian article, former members have claimed that the Unification Church is religious cult that utilizes brainwashing techniques. The newspaper is funded through a subscription and advertising model.

Instead it’s better to solely rely on MSM propaganda with no vetting. That’s what democrats do.

You can stop lying anytime now. The Majority of the population ain't buying this lie. Move on. Come up with another one to give Trump another free ride. Wait 10 minutes, I am sure something else will come up from him that will need to be glazed over.

What lying? Democrats rely on unvetted MSM propaganda.

I just have to look out my window. The Coal cars that used to be lines deep are gone. Yes, I live within a quarter of a mile of the UP Holding Yards. It used to be that there was a train of 105 cars pull out every other hour 24/7 but now, maybe, it will take a week to put together that 105 car train. And UP doesn't bother with the diesel fuel for anything less than 105 cars.

I just have to look at my electric bill. while yours has probably gone up, my has gone down. You see, your lying bunch says it's more expensive to use Solar and Wind. It is in the first 4 years or so. After that, it's all paid for and the price of the electricity goes way, way down. We still use Hydro Electric Power that was built in the late 60s, some in the 70s and 80s. It's all paid for now. No coal fired plants around here. Over half of the electric power does come from Natural Gas but it's gone down. Natural Gas is going to be around a very, very long time though. So it's a combination of all types except for coal. Do we have an excess of Natural Gas, you betcha. They are trying to get that pipe to oregon to make it into CNA and sell it to Japan, China and others. Do we have an excess of Hyroelectric? We put it in the trunk and it ends up in Phoenix and LA. Blue Mesa Damn, alone, has 2 operational Hydro turbines and is one of the largest dams in the world. Just below that is Morrow Point where I worked one summer. It's the second largest concave dam in the world.

I just have to drive up the valley to Sommerset and see the vacant houses, empty stores and idle mines. There are a ton of mines up there that could be producing but there is only 2 that still are in operation. UP runs short trains out of them because they rails are so deteriorated that the rails will flex sometimes as much as 4 feet. The Schools in Somerset have closed down and the students are bused. If you want to see much of the same thing, just visit West Virginia or parts of Pennsylvania. It's been like that long before Obama can along. Coal has been dying for a few decades. It seems large cities like to breath.

All that from not turning on the TV or Radio. Not picking up a Newspaper of any kind. That means, you are a liar and I rarely say that about anyone except for Trump who is a professional liar. It appears that you are as well.

 

[Rustic]

Liberals can't wait to kill the coal industry.

The left is lying on clean coal

Wow, you must really enjoy the king of ....well. even the National Inquirer shakes it head on that rag.
Washington Times - Media Bias/Fact Check
Operations Holdings Inc is the owner of The Washington Times, which is owned by the Unification Church of South Korea, through their holding company HSA-UWC (Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity). In 1954, Reverend Sun Myung Moon founded this religious movement in South Korea, which is known for its mass weddings and its members are referred to as “Moonies.” According to a Guardian article, former members have claimed that the Unification Church is religious cult that utilizes brainwashing techniques. The newspaper is funded through a subscription and advertising model.

Instead it’s better to solely rely on MSM propaganda with no vetting. That’s what democrats do.

You can stop lying anytime now. The Majority of the population ain't buying this lie. Move on. Come up with another one to give Trump another free ride. Wait 10 minutes, I am sure something else will come up from him that will need to be glazed over.

What lying? Democrats rely on unvetted MSM propaganda.

I just have to look out my window. The Coal cars that used to be lines deep are gone. Yes, I live within a quarter of a mile of the UP Holding Yards. It used to be that there was a train of 105 cars pull out every other hour 24/7 but now, maybe, it will take a week to put together that 105 car train. And UP doesn't bother with the diesel fuel for anything less than 105 cars.

I just have to look at my electric bill. while yours has probably gone up, my has gone down. You see, your lying bunch says it's more expensive to use Solar and Wind. It is in the first 4 years or so. After that, it's all paid for and the price of the electricity goes way, way down. We still use Hydro Electric Power that was built in the late 60s, some in the 70s and 80s. It's all paid for now. No coal fired plants around here. Over half of the electric power does come from Natural Gas but it's gone down. Natural Gas is going to be around a very, very long time though. So it's a combination of all types except for coal. Do we have an excess of Natural Gas, you betcha. They are trying to get that pipe to oregon to make it into CNA and sell it to Japan, China and others. Do we have an excess of Hyroelectric? We put it in the trunk and it ends up in Phoenix and LA. Blue Mesa Damn, alone, has 2 operational Hydro turbines and is one of the largest dams in the world. Just below that is Morrow Point where I worked one summer. It's the second largest concave dam in the world.

I just have to drive up the valley to Sommerset and see the vacant houses, empty stores and idle mines. There are a ton of mines up there that could be producing but there is only 2 that still are in operation. UP runs short trains out of them because they rails are so deteriorated that the rails will flex sometimes as much as 4 feet. The Schools in Somerset have closed down and the students are bused. If you want to see much of the same thing, just visit West Virginia or parts of Pennsylvania. It's been like that long before Obama can along. Coal has been dying for a few decades. It seems large cities like to breath.

All that from not turning on the TV or Radio. Not picking up a Newspaper of any kind. That means, you are a liar and I rarely say that about anyone except for Trump who is a professional liar. It appears that you are as well.

Well, here in the northern plains oil, natural gas, propane and coal are the only things we can rely on. Renewables don’t work up here.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m an all of the above type a guy. But renewables for decades away from being viable.
Up here all of the power plants are powered by fossil fuels. The northern plains are not suited for a renewables, Or I should say the other way around renewables are not suited for the northern plains.
And it cost me almost 580 dollars to heat my shop and my house all last winter. Thanks to cheap natural gas.

Each area needs to find what suits them, no one area should tell another area what to do.