The Islam Thread

[Dr Grump]

The NT does not supersede the OT. Christ fulfilled Scripture. He also corrected many then-contemporary misinterpretations of God’s law.

And do you think Jews agree or disagree with this?

 

[theHawk]

The Jewish Torah (God’s law) is the first 5 books of the Christian Bible, and has been duplicated and translated faithfully throughout the centuries by Jews and Christians. This has been proven scientifically many times, most notable by the Dead Sea Scrolls matching modern texts word for word, carbon dated 200-400 BC. The first book of the Torah is Genesis, which includes details of the life of Abraham, who lived about 2000BC.

Mohamed wrote the Koran around 600AD, starting with the story of Abraham. Obviously, he was not able to travel back in time and change events, so any divergence from the Torah would be incorrect, if not heretical. “According to Islamic tradition, it was Ishmael, not Isaac, that Abraham offered to God on Mount Moriah. In the Qu’ran it does not actually specify which son, but the verses, which follow that passage, speak about Isaac.” [source: mandinkapeople.com]

Christianity does not diverge from the Torah whatsoever. Over centuries Jewish traditions evolved with interpretations of the Torah that Jesus found to be incorrect. An example is harvesting sustenance during the Sabbath. His detractors wanted to punish Him for doing so, but He corrected them because the Sabbath was created for people to replenish and worship, not go hungry on a day of rest. The modern term "duh" comes to mind here.

Mohamed, on the other hand, reinterpreted the Torah against Christ's teachings.

Is this proof that Islam is a false religion?

Muhammed didn't actually write the Koran. Rather many people memorized verses he said and it wasn't untill many years after his death (decades even?) that the verses were put to paper and organized into chapters.

The funny thing about Islam is they say they regard Jesus as a great Prophet of God yet claim that his disciples lied after his death about his Resurrection and Ascention to Heaven. I guess a "greatest Prophet of God" was unable to forsee his own handpicked disciples would end up writing "lies" about him (The New Testament). By the way if you ever confront a Muslim about this contractition they will never answer for it.

 

[glockmail]

If that is the case (proving Judism right)
1) Why are there still Jews in the world? Why do they need to exist if the prophecies in their book have come to pass?
2) You saying this: "Jewish traditions evolved with interpretations of the Torah that Jesus found to be incorrect." If Jesus said the Jewish people had interpreted things in the Torah incorrectly, and he had done so correctly, yet Jewish people obviously disagree with him, how has Judism been proven right when Jews themselves disagree with that premise?

Above all else, IMO, God values our freedom above all else. That means the Jews are free to believe what they choose to believe.

 

[glockmail]

And do you think Jews agree or disagree with this?

Is not the answer obvious? What does this have to do with Islam?

 

[glockmail]

Muhammed didn't actually write the Koran. Rather many people memorized verses he said and it wasn't untill many years after his death (decades even?) that the verses were put to paper and organized into chapters.

The funny thing about Islam is they say they regard Jesus as a great Prophet of God yet claim that his disciples lied after his death about his Resurrection and Ascention to Heaven. I guess a "greatest Prophet of God" was unable to forsee his own handpicked disciples would end up writing "lies" about him (The New Testament). By the way if you ever confront a Muslim about this contractition they will never answer for it.

I agree. I also think that this great contradiction is damning proof that Islam is a sham. There are no contradictions in the Christain Bible.

 

[jillian]

You don't seem to have an undestanding at all about Christianity. Christ fullfilled Scipture in the Torah, proving that Judaism was right.

IF... one believes that Christ fulfilled prophesy... but the Christian view of the messiah is quite different from the Judaic view. Christians see the concept of the messiah as being a savior. Jews see the messiah as being a messianic king of the Davidic line who would then bring 1,000 years of peace.

So depends on what one believes the prophesy was....

 

[jillian]

Strictly speaking, no. You would first have to prove that the Torah and/or Bible are indicitive of true religion, which I believe was your unstated assumption. But, if one believes (or shows) that the Torah is true, and that the Koran contradicts the Torah, then one could cponclude that the Koran is false, and therefore any religion based upon the Koran would have to be false.

You know, I think we spend far too much time worrying about whose religion is "true". I think the purpose of religion is to give people peace of mind and answer whatever spiritual questions they have..... if each of our own beliefs do that, then whatever happens in the hereafter is pretty much the worry of the individual.

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly limited on the subject) Islam views both Moses and Jesus as prophets and calls both Christians and Jews "people of the book". That, of course, doesn't mean that it has to follow the religions which gave rise to those prophets.

 

[jillian]

But Christianity does not claim that Judaism is wrong. Christianity claims to be an extension of Judaism. Christianity actually depends on Judaism being correct about everything except the nature of Jesus. Judaism predicts the coming of a Messiah. Christianity believes that Jesus was that same Messiah that Judaism believes in.

That's an interesting point. But Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus was the same Messiah as that prophesized.

Also, I understand what you're saying about Judaism being correct.... at least up until the rise of Christianity. But doesn't that, by implication, mean that anyone still observing Judaism IS now wrong?

 

[Annie]

That's an interesting point. But Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus was the same Messiah as that prophesized.

Also, I understand what you're saying about Judaism being correct.... at least up until the rise of Christianity. But doesn't that, by implication, mean that anyone still observing Judaism IS now wrong?

I would say, unpersuaded. What that means down the road? It's God's decision, assuming, which I do, that Christianity is correct about the Christ.

 

[jillian]

I would say, unpersuaded. What that means down the road? It's God's decision, assuming, which I do, that Christianity is correct about the Christ.

Well... I agree that down the road, the ultimate judgment is going to be made. The thing that I don't understand, though, and perhaps you can explain it to me, is if the messiah's been here.... why is the world still so futterly ucked in so many ways and why haven't we had the 1,000 year peace?

 

[Annie]

Well... I agree that down the road, the ultimate judgment is going to be made. The thing that I don't understand, though, and perhaps you can explain it to me, is if the messiah's been here.... why is the world still so futterly ucked in so many ways and why haven't we had the 1,000 year peace?

and with that question we have the dicotomy between Judaism and Christianity. Jesus wasn't sent here for 'peace of our understanding' rather of God's. At least that's what I understand.

 

[jillian]

Jesus wasn't sent here for 'peace of our understanding' rather of God's. At least that's what I understand.

I'm not sure I'm following .... can you try explaining that again?

 

[Annie]

I'm not sure I'm following .... can you try explaining that again?

God's peace is spiritual, ours is of the here and now. Best I can do.

 

[jillian]

God's peace is spiritual, ours is of the here and now. Best I can do.

Ah..... fair enough. Thanks.

 

[Annie]

Ah..... fair enough. Thanks.

 

[glockmail]

You know, I think we spend far too much time worrying about whose religion is "true". I think the purpose of religion is to give people peace of mind and answer whatever spiritual questions they have..... if each of our own beliefs do that, then whatever happens in the hereafter is pretty much the worry of the individual.

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly limited on the subject) Islam views both Moses and Jesus as prophets and calls both Christians and Jews "people of the book". That, of course, doesn't mean that it has to follow the religions which gave rise to those prophets.

That would be fine, except Islam was created by Mohamed for his personal power trip, and as an excuse to kill the Jews that he hated, as well as anyone else who refused to believe his false prophecy.

 

[glockmail]

Can anyone find a good summary of Islam's threats against "the infadels"? Google didn't yield anything.

 

[jillian]

That would be fine, except Islam was created by Mohamed for his personal power trip, and as an excuse to kill the Jews that he hated, as well as anyone else who refused to believe his false prophecy.

Actually, that's another inaccuracy. Sephardic Jews traditionally resided in Muslim Countries and fared much better under Islam than did the Ashkenazi and Spanish Jews who lived under Christian rule. There were no pogroms under Islam, there was no Spanish Inquisition, no blood libel like those contained in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion... no Holocaust.

Jews were certainly subservient under Islam, but they were safe for the most part... at least til modern times... and that had nothing to do with Mohammed.

So you were saying about excuses to kill Jews?

 

[Hobbit]

What about the Jewish town that Mohammad wiped out and slaughtered down to the last child? That sounds really merciful and kind to me.

 

[mattskramer]

That would be fine, except Islam was created by Mohamed for his personal power trip, and as an excuse to kill the Jews that he hated, as well as anyone else who refused to believe his false prophecy.

The winners remain alive and are able to write the history books. And the Jews created the Bible as a power trip tool. They took land and claimed that their God said that they could have it. Read carefully the Old Testament about the Jews. Europeans have their “manifest destiny”. Mormons claim a big portion of Utah as their “promised land.” White skinheads interpret the Bible in ways to support their contention that they are the superior race.

This old “we versus them” mentality, taken with such extreme and tiresome rhetoric, really is depressing but all too common. All throughout history, it seems like the same old story of humanity. We take up sides, exaggerate our greatness and underexpose our grievous sins, exaggerate the other side’s sins and belittle the good that the other side do, and end up trying to destroy each other. From the myth of Cain and Able to today’s Islam and Christianity, there is nothing new under the sun.