CDZ The Flynn Effect and Race Realism

[JimBowie1958]

Race Realists argue that there is little one can do to improve the intelligence of below average IQ populations and so we need laws and policies that distinguish between races, institutionalized racism for real.

But there is strong evidence that not only can group average IQs improve but that they HAVE BEEN.

This is called the 'Flynn Effect' and there are many theories as to why this is happening.

Flynn effect - Wikipedia

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

 

[Mac1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

 

[JoeMoma]

Race Realists argue that there is little one can do to improve the intelligence of below average IQ populations and so we need laws and policies that distinguish between races, institutionalized racism for real.

But there is strong evidence that not only can group average IQs improve but that they HAVE BEEN.

This is called the 'Flynn Effect' and there are many theories as to why this is happening.

Flynn effect - Wikipedia

View attachment 152946

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

Years ago I picked up an IQ test at the mall bookstore. I read the instructions and self administered it. I scored pretty high, but much of the test was mathematical type questions. Having taken lots of math classes, I would expect to do well on such a test.

Bottom line, education and experience taking tests can possibly skew the results of IQ tests.

 

[alang1216]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

Simple, racial discrimination is not fact-based. It is learned behavior and requires no supporting data.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I am surprised at some of the nutritional items that can raise IQ, like Iodine.

From the link

It is well known that micronutrient deficiencies change the development of intelligence. For instance, one study has found that iodine deficiency causes a fall, on average, of 12 IQ points in China.[37]

Scientists James Feyrer, Dimitra Politi, and David N. Weil have found in the U.S. that the proliferation of iodized salt increased IQ by 15 points in some areas. Journalist Max Nisen has stated that, with this type of salt becoming popular, that "the aggregate effect has been extremely positive."[38]

Daley et al. (2003) found a significant Flynn effect among children in rural Kenya, and concluded that nutrition was one of the hypothesized explanations that best explained their results (the others were parental literacy and family structure).
​

Wow, 15 IQ points on average increase once a nation introduces iodized salt.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

Simple, racial discrimination is not fact-based. It is learned behavior and requires no supporting data.

There is some truth to that, but then we could not have progress if this were without exception as a great many people lose their overt bigotry presumably through better information, education and real world experience with minority populations.

 

[martybegan]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Is the avoidance of iodized table salt dumbing down America?

 

[Mac1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I am surprised at some of the nutritional items that can raise IQ, like Iodine.

From the link

It is well known that micronutrient deficiencies change the development of intelligence. For instance, one study has found that iodine deficiency causes a fall, on average, of 12 IQ points in China.[37]

Scientists James Feyrer, Dimitra Politi, and David N. Weil have found in the U.S. that the proliferation of iodized salt increased IQ by 15 points in some areas. Journalist Max Nisen has stated that, with this type of salt becoming popular, that "the aggregate effect has been extremely positive."[38]

Daley et al. (2003) found a significant Flynn effect among children in rural Kenya, and concluded that nutrition was one of the hypothesized explanations that best explained their results (the others were parental literacy and family structure).
​

Wow, 15 IQ points on average increase once a nation introduces iodized salt.

Yes, I've heard about that, and that the diets of many low-income people are low in iodine.

Also, there is a "word gap" between poor kids and wealthier kids, 30 million freaking words on average: Poor Kids and the 'Word Gap'

There are answers to things out there. We just have to get over ourselves and honestly examine them.
.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

But with this kind of variance, where do you find a control group?

 

[Mac1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kinds of cognitive limits based on various factors.

Overall, though, I think most of us have access to more capacity than we know.
.

 

[alang1216]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

Simple, racial discrimination is not fact-based. It is learned behavior and requires no supporting data.

There is some truth to that, but then we could not have progress if this were without exception as a great many people lose their overt bigotry presumably through better information, education and real world experience with minority populations.

My father was a man of his time. Racist-lite, he didn't wish blacks any harm, he just didn't want to live next to them. I endeavored to NOT pass on his attitude to my children and succeeded, I think. Progress, slow but progress none the less.

 

[martybegan]

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

But with this kind of variance, where do you find a control group?

I don't think you can. I think you have to go with inference and remember that correlation is not causation.

As a sub-set of euro-caucasians, the example of people of Jewish descent can be used as an example, as they were often better educated or worked in jobs that required more intellectual skills. Now the question is did that come about due to baseline genetics, selective genetics due to them being denied other more manual types of professions back in the middle ages/renaissance, environmental factors based on said denial of certain professions (i.e we can't own land and farm, so we gotta go into commerce which requires us educating our kids more) or a combination of all 3?

 

[JimBowie1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kinds of cognitive limits based on various factors.

Overall, though, I think most of us have access to more capacity than we know.
.

There may be a genetic cap, but if so it would be a soft cap as people regularly over-achieve their capabilities.

I suspect that the vast majority of us under perform what we are capable of due to lack of education, nutrition, emotional issues, etc, such that any genetic cap is largely immaterial today.

But with the coming genetic engineering in the future, we may all be able to increase that cap.

Scientists just discovered 50 genes that are linked with intelligence

 

[martybegan]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kinds of cognitive limits based on various factors.

Overall, though, I think most of us have access to more capacity than we know.
.

One also has to take into account that even if a set population has a genetic limit to their cognitive functions, mutations always are occurring, and you can get the "diamond in the rough" effect. If this allows them to be successful that means they probably will have kids and will be able to expand the genetic limits (if it exists) of the population over time.

 

[martybegan]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some kinds of cognitive limits based on various factors.

Overall, though, I think most of us have access to more capacity than we know.
.

There may be a genetic cap, but if so it would be a soft cap as people regularly over-achieve their capabilities.

I suspect that the vast majority of us under perform what we are capable of due to lack of education, nutrition, emotional issues, etc, such that any genetic cap is largely immaterial today.

But with the coming genetic engineering in the future, we may all be able to increase that cap.

Scientists just discovered 50 genes that are linked with intelligence

Or limit the cap, remember any technology that can do one thing can probably do the opposite.

Brave new world called.

This idea was also brought up by Asimov with regards to planetary defense with regards to asteroids. His point was that any civilization that could move an asteroid to make it miss the planet could also make an asteroid move to hit it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

As a sub-set of euro-caucasians, the example of people of Jewish descent can be used as an example, as they were often better educated or worked in jobs that required more intellectual skills. Now the question is did that come about due to baseline genetics, selective genetics due to them being denied other more manual types of professions back in the middle ages/renaissance, environmental factors based on said denial of certain professions (i.e we can't own land and farm, so we gotta go into commerce which requires us educating our kids more) or a combination of all 3?

The urbanization of a population seems to correlate to its tested average IQ level. Populations from agricultural backgrounds tend to not score as high as populations from urban settings.

The Ashkenazi Jews of western Europe fit this profile extremely well due to the limits placed on them by law against any kind of access to rural resources and opportunities for centuries. Thus they are over represented in academia, finance and other strictly urban professions, and this I think has helped to increase their base IQ through marital selection.

 

[martybegan]

As a sub-set of euro-caucasians, the example of people of Jewish descent can be used as an example, as they were often better educated or worked in jobs that required more intellectual skills. Now the question is did that come about due to baseline genetics, selective genetics due to them being denied other more manual types of professions back in the middle ages/renaissance, environmental factors based on said denial of certain professions (i.e we can't own land and farm, so we gotta go into commerce which requires us educating our kids more) or a combination of all 3?

The urbanization of a population seems to correlate to its tested average IQ level. Populations from agricultural backgrounds tend to not score as high as populations from urban settings.

The Ashkenazi Jews of western Europe fit this profile extremely well due to the limits placed on them by law against any kind of access to rural resources and opportunities for centuries. Thus they are over represented in academia, finance and other strictly urban professions, and this I think has helped to increase their base IQ through marital selection.

While I have never lived the farm life, I can see how it can dull the brain. Early rise, lots of work, early bed. Not much time for personal development.

 

[JimBowie1958]

While I have never lived the farm life, I can see how it can dull the brain. Early rise, lots of work, early bed. Not much time for personal development.

But it does make for some physically strong people that can seem just freakish at times. Saw a guy who grew up on a farm bend a quarter with his bare hands.

In the modern urban setting that is less useful than photographic memory.

 

[martybegan]

While I have never lived the farm life, I can see how it can dull the brain. Early rise, lots of work, early bed. Not much time for personal development.

But it does make for some physically strong people that can seem just freakish at times. Saw a guy who grew up on a farm bend a quarter with his bare hands.

In the modern urban setting that is less useful than photographic memory.

Except if you are really really good at certain sports.