CDZ The Flynn Effect and Race Realism

[alang1216]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


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I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

I see IQ or 'cognitive abilities' as an umbrella term as there are many different abilities. Some are better at math, verbal, sports, music, social, etc. Any single number is a pretty useless data point.

 

[JimBowie1958]

While I have never lived the farm life, I can see how it can dull the brain. Early rise, lots of work, early bed. Not much time for personal development.

But it does make for some physically strong people that can seem just freakish at times. Saw a guy who grew up on a farm bend a quarter with his bare hands.

In the modern urban setting that is less useful than photographic memory.

Except if you are really really good at certain sports.

But that is mostly restricted to a handful of genetic mutants, lol.

 

[martybegan]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

I see IQ or 'cognitive abilities' as an umbrella term as there are many different abilities. Some are better at math, verbal, sports, music, social, etc. Any single number is a pretty useless data point.

IQ only works as a general trend, I agree, but it's still a metric that can be used if one doesn't read into it too much.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I see IQ or 'cognitive abilities' as an umbrella term as there are many different abilities. Some are better at math, verbal, sports, music, social, etc. Any single number is a pretty useless data point.

It makes far more sense to use subcategories like 'Mathematics Quotient' or 'Social Skills Quotient'.

But I guess that is too much work, lol.

 

[martybegan]

While I have never lived the farm life, I can see how it can dull the brain. Early rise, lots of work, early bed. Not much time for personal development.

But it does make for some physically strong people that can seem just freakish at times. Saw a guy who grew up on a farm bend a quarter with his bare hands.

In the modern urban setting that is less useful than photographic memory.

Except if you are really really good at certain sports.

But that is mostly restricted to a handful of genetic mutants, lol.

Yes, but having parents who are "mutants" like that may make you more apt to be one as well.

 

[JimBowie1958]

IQ only works as a general trend, I agree, but it's still a metric that can be used if one doesn't read into it too much.

You mean like discussing the value of entire races of people based on IQ?

 

[martybegan]

IQ only works as a general trend, I agree, but it's still a metric that can be used if one doesn't read into it too much.

You mean like discussing the value of entire races of people based on IQ?

I see it more as a starting point for evaluating individuals, because it's an individual taking the test. I also see it as something you cant trust except assuming it can be off by as much as 10-20 points.

And as I see race as a grouping construct that can meld ethnicities and genetic groupings that are wildly different into the same large basket, I tend to look at the smaller groups when analysing these things.

We group Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and others as "asian" when there are large differences culturally and physically between the groups.

 

[alang1216]

IQ only works as a general trend, I agree, but it's still a metric that can be used if one doesn't read into it too much.

You mean like discussing the value of entire races of people based on IQ?

Remember these abilities are all Bell curves with, I'd guess, 99% overlap. The only real differences will be at the extremes. For example, all great marathon runners may come from East Africa but there are plenty of marathon runners from every area.

 

[MACAULAY]

All this I.Q. information sounds like good news.

So, we have been at the extremely expensive projects of the War on Poverty, the Great Society, and Affirmative Action for over half a century now.

When can we expect the Black Community to start carrying its own weight in this country, instead of just Whining, Killing Each Other, and Producing Fatherless Babies for the Tax Payers to take care of?

 

[JimBowie1958]

All this I.Q. information sounds like good news.

So, we have been at the extremely expensive projects of the War on Poverty, the Great Society, and Affirmative Action for over half a century now.

When can we expect the Black Community to start carrying its own weight in this country, instead of just Whining, Killing Each Other, and Producing Fatherless Babies for the Tax Payers to take care of?

I think blacks have been paying more in taxes than their community has absorbed in welfare for some time now, but I dont have the stats right now.

 

[JoeMoma]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

They cannot.

One of my kids teaches at a charter school, lousy part of town, predominantly minority children. Top of the state test scores.

I believe in what I call "intellectual elasticity" - it's up to the individual to choose to expand their intellectual capacity and efficiency, and it can be done, just as a person can increase their physical strength with training. Obviously a child doesn't have that much control over their surroundings, but in constructive (or even just decent) surroundings, ethnicity is irrelevant.

This is a cultural issue, therefore in some ways a political issue, and I'll do you the favor of not "going there" in this thread.


.

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

That question is taboo......scientist investigate at your own risk.

 

[JoeMoma]

I think genetics gives a range for people to start off with when it comes to cognitive abilities, and from there on where you land in the range depends on environment.

There is the obvious question that no one wants to ask, do some populations have a larger range than others or a range that is statistically higher or lower than others? And I am not going strictly by race, but by ethnicity or tribe, or even current population groups.

But with this kind of variance, where do you find a control group?

I don't think you can. I think you have to go with inference and remember that correlation is not causation.

As a sub-set of euro-caucasians, the example of people of Jewish descent can be used as an example, as they were often better educated or worked in jobs that required more intellectual skills. Now the question is did that come about due to baseline genetics, selective genetics due to them being denied other more manual types of professions back in the middle ages/renaissance, environmental factors based on said denial of certain professions (i.e we can't own land and farm, so we gotta go into commerce which requires us educating our kids more) or a combination of all 3?

A "controlled group" is not needed to measure the demographics of a population. A controlled group is needed if some sort of treatment is administered in an experiment and the effects of the treatment are to be measured (against the controlled group).

 

[JimBowie1958]

A "controlled group" is not needed to measure the demographics of a population. A controlled group is needed if some sort of treatment is administered in an experiment and the effects of the treatment are to be measured (against the controlled group).

A control group is needed to determine how much IQ generated is purely from genetics vrs genetics and environment, with the control group not having the environmental effects.

 

[usmbguest5318]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination

Despite the qualifying subordinate clause (not shown) that ends the sentence quoted above, the essence of the question, which is what I've above quoted, isn't completely nullified. I'm amazed you're asking that question.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination

Despite the qualifying subordinate clause (not shown) that ends the sentence quoted above, the essence of the question, which is what I've above quoted, isn't completely nullified. I'm amazed you're asking that question.

I am not sure what your question is.

I asked how can we do A if A' is not possible, when A is contingent on there being A'?

To say we have evaluated facet Bravo of group Sierra and determined that the Bravo undermines the value of group Sierra makes absolutely zero sense if the Bravo is not a steady repeatable quantity.

The ability of IQs to improve means that there is no valid argument for dehumanizing any group of people based on their average IQ,limiting their freedoms or treating them differently in courts of law.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I am not sure what your question is.

That's because I didn't ask one.

 

[ScorpioRising007]

Race Realists argue that there is little one can do to improve the intelligence of below average IQ populations and so we need laws and policies that distinguish between races, institutionalized racism for real.

But there is strong evidence that not only can group average IQs improve but that they HAVE BEEN.

This is called the 'Flynn Effect' and there are many theories as to why this is happening.

Flynn effect - Wikipedia

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How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

The problem with IQ tests is they honestly dont predict job performane as well as say what college you went to what you majored in and reference letters from past employers.

My mother got her master's in nursing IQ 100 made 80k yr. My father IQ 130 1300 sat bachelor's accounting made 100k yr. Me IQ 110 master's degree and I drive a truck for a living . I also was diagnosed with dyslexia as a kid.

 

[jwoodie]

The ability of IQs to improve means that there is no valid argument for dehumanizing any group of people based on their average IQ,limiting their freedoms or treating them differently in courts of law.

Straw man?

 

[Picaro]

Race Realists argue that there is little one can do to improve the intelligence of below average IQ populations and so we need laws and policies that distinguish between races, institutionalized racism for real.

But there is strong evidence that not only can group average IQs improve but that they HAVE BEEN.

This is called the 'Flynn Effect' and there are many theories as to why this is happening.

Flynn effect - Wikipedia

View attachment 152946

How can current average IQs be used to justify racial discrimination when IQs are in flux anyway?

The rise in the U.S. is easily explained by immigration factors, and the far smaller rises in European scores is also explained by immigration factors, for one. The increase in mandatory education laws also play a factor over decades. I also don't think the IQ tests in 1909 are remotely like those in 2000, so what is actually being measured is questionable, particularly across different countries. What exactly does a '30 point jump' in the U.S. versus, say, an '8 point jump' in Switzerland, if the 'average' IQ is far lower in the U.S. to begin with, and the far slower rise in Switzerland is from 128 to 136, versus a jump in the U.S. from 20 to 50?

That being said, I'm sure genetics indeed play a major factor overall, but then few jobs being created these days require a high IQ, so no need to worry over it if 80% of new workers have !Q's less than 80. If the other15% have IQ's of 200, most of them will still be unemployed or flipping burgers.