The economics of Universal Income

[Harpy Eagle]

I heard on the radio today, that someone is running for congress on the issue of universal income. I'm sorry that I do not have the name. I do know he wanted to give every adult in Amreica 1000 dollars basic income. I've heard people bring this up a bunch lately, and it makes no sense to me. Wouldn't this mean that many people would just quit their jobs and raise unemployment? It also seems pretty clear that something like this couldn't be paid for. Inflation would also go crazy. Impossible spending, raised unemployment, and inflation for a country that is fast becoming Super Greece. Is there any way this makes sense economically? Is it even possible? I'm not going to laugh it off because I see big trouble coming. I had someone tell me his daughter couldn't find a job, and she was a pharmacist. They are being replaced right and left by robots. Businesses know that after an expensive 7 yr program, that these kids are desperate for work and are low balling them into 50 or 60k salaries. People are rightly concerned about robotic factories and the new kiosks in fast food places, but it is truly horrifying when you think about self driving vehicles replacing truckers. How many truckers do you think there are? That's a lot of people, and once they're replaced, they won't even be able to work at McDonald's. To me, universal income seems silly, but I really am interested in hearing the argument for it. Something inovative has to happen, because the storm is already here and it is going to get worse at an incredible rate.

where will the money come from; from millionaires that didn't make it to billionaire puppet master.

I can't recall the exact quote from Ben Franklin; The worst thing you can do for the poor is to make them comfortable in poverty.


It's all about making us subjects. The left thinks it's some kind of freedom, but it's just slavery w/o actual chains and whips

If you replaced all Fed Welfare with a UI it would save the Fed Govt $639,600,000,000.00 per year.

mind proving that with links.

and then explain why I get my money taken from me, just to have a portion of it returned. I'll let you skip over the cost of taking my money and giving it back to me.

Oh, shit. Sorry. That is what I get for doing math before my coffee. I forgot to multiply the monthly number by 12.

Ok, I am an idiot, sorry.

np, I looked it up for you

How much does the government spend on welfare?
It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year).
No, we don’t spend $1 trillion on welfare each year - …
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/
There are 330 million Americans, lets say 240 million are adults (just under 75%)

that means you would have to collect and send 240 trillion, each month or 2.88 Quadrillion a year.

maybe I have been up to long, but my math looks solid.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/m...ng The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

 

[Two Thumbs]

where will the money come from; from millionaires that didn't make it to billionaire puppet master.

I can't recall the exact quote from Ben Franklin; The worst thing you can do for the poor is to make them comfortable in poverty.


It's all about making us subjects. The left thinks it's some kind of freedom, but it's just slavery w/o actual chains and whips

If you replaced all Fed Welfare with a UI it would save the Fed Govt $639,600,000,000.00 per year.

mind proving that with links.

and then explain why I get my money taken from me, just to have a portion of it returned. I'll let you skip over the cost of taking my money and giving it back to me.

Oh, shit. Sorry. That is what I get for doing math before my coffee. I forgot to multiply the monthly number by 12.

Ok, I am an idiot, sorry.

np, I looked it up for you

How much does the government spend on welfare?
It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year).
No, we don’t spend $1 trillion on welfare each year - …
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/
There are 330 million Americans, lets say 240 million are adults (just under 75%)

that means you would have to collect and send 240 trillion, each month or 2.88 Quadrillion a year.

maybe I have been up to long, but my math looks solid.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

View attachment 177861


240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

I am tired

2.4 Trillion and then 288 trillion a year


still higher than either of us could find out about welfare.

 

[expat_panama]

...Even if you get rid of all current social programs, it wouldn't come close to every adult 1 grand a month...

the BUDGET-2017-TAB.pdf from the GPO says the feds are right now spending $3,093,009,000,000 this year on "Human Resources". That comes out to $1,002.97 per month for every U.S. adult

 

[Harpy Eagle]

If you replaced all Fed Welfare with a UI it would save the Fed Govt $639,600,000,000.00 per year.

mind proving that with links.

and then explain why I get my money taken from me, just to have a portion of it returned. I'll let you skip over the cost of taking my money and giving it back to me.

Oh, shit. Sorry. That is what I get for doing math before my coffee. I forgot to multiply the monthly number by 12.

Ok, I am an idiot, sorry.

np, I looked it up for you

How much does the government spend on welfare?
It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year).
No, we don’t spend $1 trillion on welfare each year - …
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/
There are 330 million Americans, lets say 240 million are adults (just under 75%)

that means you would have to collect and send 240 trillion, each month or 2.88 Quadrillion a year.

maybe I have been up to long, but my math looks solid.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

View attachment 177861


240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

I am tired

2.4 Trillion and then 288 trillion a year


still higher than either of us could find out about welfare.

Very much so. My initial assessment was for a month and I forgot to multiple times 12 for the whole year.

Do not really see any way to make it work in a country as large as the US, which could be a problem in the future.

 

[Two Thumbs]

...Even if you get rid of all current social programs, it wouldn't come close to every adult 1 grand a month...

the BUDGET-2017-TAB.pdf from the GPO says the feds are right now spending $3,093,009,000,000 this year on "Human Resources". That comes out to $1,002.97 per month for every U.S. adult

do you have an actual link?

and a break down, so we can see what they are calling 'welfare'

 

[Harpy Eagle]

...Even if you get rid of all current social programs, it wouldn't come close to every adult 1 grand a month...

the BUDGET-2017-TAB.pdf from the GPO says the feds are right now spending $3,093,009,000,000 this year on "Human Resources". That comes out to $1,002.97 per month for every U.S. adult

do you have a link to the budget you are referencing. I do not think we spend 3 trillion dollars on HR

 

[Two Thumbs]

mind proving that with links.

and then explain why I get my money taken from me, just to have a portion of it returned. I'll let you skip over the cost of taking my money and giving it back to me.

Oh, shit. Sorry. That is what I get for doing math before my coffee. I forgot to multiply the monthly number by 12.

Ok, I am an idiot, sorry.

np, I looked it up for you

How much does the government spend on welfare?
It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year).
No, we don’t spend $1 trillion on welfare each year - …
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/
There are 330 million Americans, lets say 240 million are adults (just under 75%)

that means you would have to collect and send 240 trillion, each month or 2.88 Quadrillion a year.

maybe I have been up to long, but my math looks solid.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

View attachment 177861


240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

I am tired

2.4 Trillion and then 288 trillion a year


still higher than either of us could find out about welfare.

Very much so. My initial assessment was for a month and I forgot to multiple times 12 for the whole year.

Do not really see any way to make it work in a country as large as the US, which could be a problem in the future.

as more jobs get automated, but still some people are working, I see real, serious, no fucking around, problems.

and I don't think it's more than 20 years away.

 

[Two Thumbs]

...Even if you get rid of all current social programs, it wouldn't come close to every adult 1 grand a month...

the BUDGET-2017-TAB.pdf from the GPO says the feds are right now spending $3,093,009,000,000 this year on "Human Resources". That comes out to $1,002.97 per month for every U.S. adult

do you have a link to the budget you are referencing. I do not think we spend 3 trillion dollars on HR

I think he was talking all of us and not some department in the Fed

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Oh, shit. Sorry. That is what I get for doing math before my coffee. I forgot to multiply the monthly number by 12.

Ok, I am an idiot, sorry.

np, I looked it up for you

How much does the government spend on welfare?
It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year).
No, we don’t spend $1 trillion on welfare each year - …
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/
There are 330 million Americans, lets say 240 million are adults (just under 75%)

that means you would have to collect and send 240 trillion, each month or 2.88 Quadrillion a year.

maybe I have been up to long, but my math looks solid.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

View attachment 177861


240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

I am tired

2.4 Trillion and then 288 trillion a year


still higher than either of us could find out about welfare.

Very much so. My initial assessment was for a month and I forgot to multiple times 12 for the whole year.

Do not really see any way to make it work in a country as large as the US, which could be a problem in the future.

as more jobs get automated, but still some people are working, I see real, serious, no fucking around, problems.

and I don't think it's more than 20 years away.

I do agree, though not sure about the time frame, that might be a little soon

Have you read this book...https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Jobs-War-Jim-Clifton/dp/1595620559&tag=ff0d01-20

 

[Two Thumbs]

np, I looked it up for you

How much does the government spend on welfare?
It shows up in this recent report from the Cato Institute, which argues that the federal government spends $668 billion dollars per year on 126 different welfare programs (spending by the state and local governments push that figure up to $1 trillion per year).
No, we don’t spend $1 trillion on welfare each year - …
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/01/12/no-we-dont-spend-1-trillion-on-welfare-each-year/
There are 330 million Americans, lets say 240 million are adults (just under 75%)

that means you would have to collect and send 240 trillion, each month or 2.88 Quadrillion a year.

maybe I have been up to long, but my math looks solid.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

View attachment 177861


240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

I am tired

2.4 Trillion and then 288 trillion a year


still higher than either of us could find out about welfare.

Very much so. My initial assessment was for a month and I forgot to multiple times 12 for the whole year.

Do not really see any way to make it work in a country as large as the US, which could be a problem in the future.

as more jobs get automated, but still some people are working, I see real, serious, no fucking around, problems.

and I don't think it's more than 20 years away.

I do agree, though not sure about the time frame, that might be a little soon

Have you read this book...https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Jobs-War-Jim-Clifton/dp/1595620559&tag=ff0d01-20

no, but I enjoyed the irony of your link.

locally Amazon removed the automation from a warehouse b/c they could pay people less to work than keep the robots going.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

View attachment 177861


240,000,000 x $1600 = $390,400,000,000. per month. Where did the 240 trillion per month come from?

I am tired

2.4 Trillion and then 288 trillion a year


still higher than either of us could find out about welfare.

Very much so. My initial assessment was for a month and I forgot to multiple times 12 for the whole year.

Do not really see any way to make it work in a country as large as the US, which could be a problem in the future.

as more jobs get automated, but still some people are working, I see real, serious, no fucking around, problems.

and I don't think it's more than 20 years away.

I do agree, though not sure about the time frame, that might be a little soon

Have you read this book...https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Jobs-War-Jim-Clifton/dp/1595620559&tag=ff0d01-20

no, but I enjoyed the irony of your link.

locally Amazon removed the automation from a warehouse b/c they could pay people less to work than keep the robots going.

That is hard for me to picture. When I first got out of the Marines I spent a couple years with WalMart as a Shift/Co manager. During my training I spent a week at a WalMart distribution center and the automation was mind blowing for me at the time.

 

[dudmuck]

I heard on the radio today, that someone is running for congress on the issue of universal income. I'm sorry that I do not have the name. I do know he wanted to give every adult in Amreica 1000 dollars basic income. I've heard people bring this up a bunch lately, and it makes no sense to me. Wouldn't this mean that many people would just quit their jobs and raise unemployment? It also seems pretty clear that something like this couldn't be paid for. Inflation would also go crazy. Impossible spending, raised unemployment, and inflation for a country that is fast becoming Super Greece. Is there any way this makes sense economically? Is it even possible? I'm not going to laugh it off because I see big trouble coming. I had someone tell me his daughter couldn't find a job, and she was a pharmacist. They are being replaced right and left by robots. Businesses know that after an expensive 7 yr program, that these kids are desperate for work and are low balling them into 50 or 60k salaries. People are rightly concerned about robotic factories and the new kiosks in fast food places, but it is truly horrifying when you think about self driving vehicles replacing truckers. How many truckers do you think there are? That's a lot of people, and once they're replaced, they won't even be able to work at McDonald's. To me, universal income seems silly, but I really am interested in hearing the argument for it. Something inovative has to happen, because the storm is already here and it is going to get worse at an incredible rate.

where will the money come from; from millionaires that didn't make it to billionaire puppet master.

I can't recall the exact quote from Ben Franklin; The worst thing you can do for the poor is to make them comfortable in poverty.


It's all about making us subjects. The left thinks it's some kind of freedom, but it's just slavery w/o actual chains and whips

62 people in the world have the same wealth as the bottom 3.5 billion people. Elon Musk says it will become inevitable, because all savings of labor costs goto the wealthiest. Investors can see it. All the concepts of whatever-ism will become obsolete. We could temporarily forestall by modernizing education, but eventually fewer jobs will need to be performed by humans.
Another good explanation says that almost all jobs created in last decade were part time. 30 million people work already without pay.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

A basic income for everyone? Yes, Finland shows it really can work | Aditya Chakrabortty

They are having a two year trial in Finland. The money moves you from destitute to poor.

I think its a good thing in general. Society needs to find a solution that supports people when jobs disappear.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I heard on the radio today, that someone is running for congress on the issue of universal income. I'm sorry that I do not have the name. I do know he wanted to give every adult in Amreica 1000 dollars basic income. I've heard people bring this up a bunch lately, and it makes no sense to me. Wouldn't this mean that many people would just quit their jobs and raise unemployment? It also seems pretty clear that something like this couldn't be paid for. Inflation would also go crazy. Impossible spending, raised unemployment, and inflation for a country that is fast becoming Super Greece. Is there any way this makes sense economically? Is it even possible? I'm not going to laugh it off because I see big trouble coming. I had someone tell me his daughter couldn't find a job, and she was a pharmacist. They are being replaced right and left by robots. Businesses know that after an expensive 7 yr program, that these kids are desperate for work and are low balling them into 50 or 60k salaries. People are rightly concerned about robotic factories and the new kiosks in fast food places, but it is truly horrifying when you think about self driving vehicles replacing truckers. How many truckers do you think there are? That's a lot of people, and once they're replaced, they won't even be able to work at McDonald's. To me, universal income seems silly, but I really am interested in hearing the argument for it. Something inovative has to happen, because the storm is already here and it is going to get worse at an incredible rate.

1. If everyone got a basic income, no one could complain about not getting it.

2. If the basic income replaced other programs, such as food stamps, the cost of those programs would be gone.

3. The basic income would not be a disincentive to work, because getting a job would not cut your basic income, the way getting a job under the current system can cut income based assistance programs.

 

[georgephillip]

I heard on the radio today, that someone is running for congress on the issue of universal income. I'm sorry that I do not have the name. I do know he wanted to give every adult in Amreica 1000 dollars basic income. I've heard people bring this up a bunch lately, and it makes no sense to me. Wouldn't this mean that many people would just quit their jobs and raise unemployment? It also seems pretty clear that something like this couldn't be paid for. Inflation would also go crazy. Impossible spending, raised unemployment, and inflation for a country that is fast becoming Super Greece. Is there any way this makes sense economically? Is it even possible? I'm not going to laugh it off because I see big trouble coming. I had someone tell me his daughter couldn't find a job, and she was a pharmacist. They are being replaced right and left by robots. Businesses know that after an expensive 7 yr program, that these kids are desperate for work and are low balling them into 50 or 60k salaries. People are rightly concerned about robotic factories and the new kiosks in fast food places, but it is truly horrifying when you think about self driving vehicles replacing truckers. How many truckers do you think there are? That's a lot of people, and once they're replaced, they won't even be able to work at McDonald's. To me, universal income seems silly, but I really am interested in hearing the argument for it. Something inovative has to happen, because the storm is already here and it is going to get worse at an incredible rate.

Could a Universal Basic Income Work in the US?

"Could a Universal Basic Income Work in the US?
The idea is simple: The government gives out enough money for people to live on—and they give it to everyone."

Speaking as someone who retired about five years ago, I can tell you retirement is wasted on old people.

If there is any way of providing the degree of individual freedom I currently enjoy to millions of Americans who are young enough to put the free time and independence to long term productive/creative uses, I would say go for it.

 

[expat_panama]

...Even if you get rid of all current social programs, it wouldn't come close to every adult 1 grand a month...

the BUDGET-2017-TAB.pdf... ...$1,002.97 per month for every U.S. adult

do you have an actual link? and a break down, so we can see what they are calling 'welfare'

I think he was talking all of us and not some department in the Fed

by googleing the title we get the tables for the FY 2017 U.S. Budget, and then in Table 3.1 on page 63 we find the $3,093,009 million for Human Resources (what they're calling "all current social programs" & not defense, debt interest, etc.). Then we can divide that number by 256,780 thousand (from here) to get the $1k/month.

Bottom line is that it's not hard to find evidence supporting the argument that the U.S. federal budget already allocates an average $1K/month to every U.S. adult --and that it's also easy to find evidence to the contrary.

What's even easier is to just decide to not believe it.

 

[JoeNormal]

$1000 a month? Everybody, kids too? And would we get rid of all our entitlement programs? SS? Medicare/Medicaid? Food stamps, UE, everything? Free education too? There's a lot of places where $1000/month doesn't pay the bills, what then? If anybody wants to expound on the idea in a positive way, maybe they could also provide information about who gets it and who doesn't and how to pay for it.

It's a bad idea. I can't imagine who would support it.

Anybody who it will soon be possible to replace with a robot should support it. That includes a huge chunk of the workforce.

 

[Tehon]

$1000 a month? Everybody, kids too? And would we get rid of all our entitlement programs? SS? Medicare/Medicaid? Food stamps, UE, everything? Free education too? There's a lot of places where $1000/month doesn't pay the bills, what then? If anybody wants to expound on the idea in a positive way, maybe they could also provide information about who gets it and who doesn't and how to pay for it.

It's a bad idea. I can't imagine who would support it.

Anybody who it will soon be possible to replace with a robot should support it. That includes a huge chunk of the workforce.

They should support being made a welfare recipient?

 

[JoeNormal]

$1000 a month? Everybody, kids too? And would we get rid of all our entitlement programs? SS? Medicare/Medicaid? Food stamps, UE, everything? Free education too? There's a lot of places where $1000/month doesn't pay the bills, what then? If anybody wants to expound on the idea in a positive way, maybe they could also provide information about who gets it and who doesn't and how to pay for it.

It's a bad idea. I can't imagine who would support it.

Anybody who it will soon be possible to replace with a robot should support it. That includes a huge chunk of the workforce.

They should support being made a welfare recipient?

Yup, they should if they don't want to be begging on the street.

 

[Tehon]

$1000 a month? Everybody, kids too? And would we get rid of all our entitlement programs? SS? Medicare/Medicaid? Food stamps, UE, everything? Free education too? There's a lot of places where $1000/month doesn't pay the bills, what then? If anybody wants to expound on the idea in a positive way, maybe they could also provide information about who gets it and who doesn't and how to pay for it.

It's a bad idea. I can't imagine who would support it.

Anybody who it will soon be possible to replace with a robot should support it. That includes a huge chunk of the workforce.

They should support being made a welfare recipient?

Yup, they should if they don't want to be begging on the street.

Begging your government to take from the people who own the means of production and give it to you is not substantially different from begging on the street.