The Civil War (Constitutional Issues)

[hortysir]

This is Moot. In 1869 the Supreme Court answered this question and ruled that the ONLY way a State may leave the Union is by act of Congress.

Years after the start of the war.

 

[paperview]

A state is free to secede if they wish.

They just have to do it Constitutionally, the way they came in.

With the consent of the other states and the Congress.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

(1) Did the "states in rebellion" have a constitutional right to leave the Union? Why or why not? They came in voluntarily, right?

(2) What is a "proclamation" (e.g., the "Emancipation Proclamation")? Does it have the force of law within the United States? Where, in Article II does the President get this power? Why did President Lincoln not free the slaves in the Border States? Was the emancipation legal anywhere? Why was the thirteenth amendment necessary?

(3) On what legal basis did the U.S. government "take" the property of slaveholders? Were the slaveholders entitled to compensation for these freed chattel/assets (under the Fifth Amendment)? Is this what is meant when we hear of "reparations" for slavery?

The United States of America wasn't formed as a social club. Dismembering the nation would require some kind of constitutionally based legal framework.

Actually the way it WASNT formed was contrary to the notion the state's had to answer to a federal government

That;'s why federal law was to trump state law?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

A state is free to secede if they wish.

They just have to do it Constitutionally, the way they came in.

With the consent of the other states and the Congress.

 

[Liminal]

The United States of America wasn't formed as a social club. Dismembering the nation would require some kind of constitutionally based legal framework.

The Confederacy didn't claim what you say, straw man. They insisted they had a constitutionally based legal framework, not some kind of one. They were ultimately proved wrong

Sounds almost like a near distinction without a difference.

may sound the way to the hearing impaired amongst us, but in reality it says loudly and clearly "Distinction with a difference"

I still can't hear you. Maybe if you yell a little louder.

that's what the Flame Zone is for, but you have yet to earn your stripe

If you're the one handing out stripes I think I'll forego the promotion.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The Confederacy didn't claim what you say, straw man. They insisted they had a constitutionally based legal framework, not some kind of one. They were ultimately proved wrong

Sounds almost like a near distinction without a difference.

may sound the way to the hearing impaired amongst us, but in reality it says loudly and clearly "Distinction with a difference"

I still can't hear you. Maybe if you yell a little louder.

that's what the Flame Zone is for, but you have yet to earn your stripe

If you're the one handing out stripes I think I'll forego the promotion.

do you know how many posts back and forth over this crap? I rarely participate in this kind of thread, but wanted to make a point of showing what really motivates you

bye bye

 

[Liminal]

Sounds almost like a near distinction without a difference.

may sound the way to the hearing impaired amongst us, but in reality it says loudly and clearly "Distinction with a difference"

I still can't hear you. Maybe if you yell a little louder.

that's what the Flame Zone is for, but you have yet to earn your stripe

If you're the one handing out stripes I think I'll forego the promotion.

do you know how many posts back and forth over this crap? I rarely participate in this kind of thread, but wanted to make a point of showing what really motivates you

bye bye

Before you go I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for your tireless dedication to educating people.

 

[alan1]

Although the specific definition of "Civil War" says it is a war between political factions or regions within a country, the reality is that the vast preponderance of civil wars are wars where a political faction seeks to take over the government of the country. That was not the case in the US civil war, the south was not trying to take control of the US government, it was trying to leave the control of the governing country, much like the US sought severing ties with England during the war for independence.

1) The states voluntarily joined the Union, I think they had/have the right to voluntarily leave it.

2) The Emancipation Proclamation only granted freedom for slaves in Confederate states attempting to leave the Union. It didn't grant freedom for slaves in Union states. President Lincoln didn't free all the slaves, just some of them. It was a politically strategic move more than an act of kindness in my opinion.

3) Sticky wicket. My ancestors immigrated to the US after the US civil war. I oppose any reperations for things that my ancestors and myself had no part of. Even if ones ancestors was a slave holder, they shouldn't be held liable for it, it wasn't their action.

 

[Liminal]

Although the specific definition of "Civil War" says it is a war between political factions or regions within a country, the reality is that the vast preponderance of civil wars are wars where a political faction seeks to take over the government of the country. That was not the case in the US civil war, the south was not trying to take control of the US government, it was trying to leave the control of the governing country, much like the US sought severing ties with England during the war for independence.

1) The states voluntarily joined the Union, I think they had/have the right to voluntarily leave it.

2) The Emancipation Proclamation only granted freedom for slaves in Confederate states attempting to leave the Union. It didn't grant freedom for slaves in Union states. President Lincoln didn't free all the slaves, just some of them. It was a politically strategic move more than an act of kindness in my opinion.

3) Sticky wicket. My ancestors immigrated to the US after the US civil war. I oppose any reperations for things that my ancestors and myself had no part of. Even if ones ancestors was a slave holder, they shouldn't be held liable for it, it wasn't their action.

There never was any Constitutional basis for secession.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Although the specific definition of "Civil War" says it is a war between political factions or regions within a country, the reality is that the vast preponderance of civil wars are wars where a political faction seeks to take over the government of the country. That was not the case in the US civil war, the south was not trying to take control of the US government, it was trying to leave the control of the governing country, much like the US sought severing ties with England during the war for independence.

1) The states voluntarily joined the Union, I think they had/have the right to voluntarily leave it.

2) The Emancipation Proclamation only granted freedom for slaves in Confederate states attempting to leave the Union. It didn't grant freedom for slaves in Union states. President Lincoln didn't free all the slaves, just some of them. It was a politically strategic move more than an act of kindness in my opinion.

3) Sticky wicket. My ancestors immigrated to the US after the US civil war. I oppose any reperations for things that my ancestors and myself had no part of. Even if ones ancestors was a slave holder, they shouldn't be held liable for it, it wasn't their action.

There never was any Constitutional basis for secession.

Opinion. The war settled who was right. Unlike subparLiminal, Dante disagrees with the confederacy's reading of the Constitution, but to say there was NO Constitutional basis is to assume ...

oh never mind

 

[Liminal]

Although the specific definition of "Civil War" says it is a war between political factions or regions within a country, the reality is that the vast preponderance of civil wars are wars where a political faction seeks to take over the government of the country. That was not the case in the US civil war, the south was not trying to take control of the US government, it was trying to leave the control of the governing country, much like the US sought severing ties with England during the war for independence.

1) The states voluntarily joined the Union, I think they had/have the right to voluntarily leave it.

2) The Emancipation Proclamation only granted freedom for slaves in Confederate states attempting to leave the Union. It didn't grant freedom for slaves in Union states. President Lincoln didn't free all the slaves, just some of them. It was a politically strategic move more than an act of kindness in my opinion.

3) Sticky wicket. My ancestors immigrated to the US after the US civil war. I oppose any reperations for things that my ancestors and myself had no part of. Even if ones ancestors was a slave holder, they shouldn't be held liable for it, it wasn't their action.

There never was any Constitutional basis for secession.

Opinion. The war settled who was right. Unlike subparLiminal, Dante disagrees with the confederacy's reading of the Constitution, but to say there was NO Constitutional basis is to assume ...

oh never mind

Once again I'd like to thank you for your unswerving commitment to academic pursuits. The thoughtful machinations of a constitutional scholar of your standing aren't merely opinions, your profound insights represent the living embodiment of the edifice of civilization itself.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

finally, the recognition so needed presents itself

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Once again the war settled the question and as to leaving ever, the Supreme Court established the peaceful means to do so. The Constitution does not allow a State to unilaterally leave the Union.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Once again the war settled the question and as to leaving ever, the Supreme Court established the peaceful means to do so. The Constitution does not allow a State to unilaterally leave the Union.

Yes, twas the war that settled it -- except Southerners and states rights sympathizers keep bringing it back up

 

[Liminal]

finally, the recognition so needed presents itself

A man of your unquestioned intellectual prowess doesn't need recognition or validation from mere mortals, you're like a force of nature.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

alan1

Although the specific definition of "Civil War" says it is a war between political factions or regions within a country, the reality is that the vast preponderance of civil wars are wars where a political faction seeks to take over the government of the country. That was not the case in the US civil war, the south was not trying to take control of the US government, it was trying to leave the control of the governing country, much like the US sought severing ties with England during the war for independence.

1) The states voluntarily joined the Union, I think they had/have the right to voluntarily leave it.

2) The Emancipation Proclamation only granted freedom for slaves in Confederate states attempting to leave the Union. It didn't grant freedom for slaves in Union states. President Lincoln didn't free all the slaves, just some of them. It was a politically strategic move more than an act of kindness in my opinion.

3) Sticky wicket. My ancestors immigrated to the US after the US civil war. I oppose any reperations for things that my ancestors and myself had no part of. Even if ones ancestors was a slave holder, they shouldn't be held liable for it, it wasn't their action.

The American Civil War was nothing like the American Revolution in the way you have framed it. Nothing.

In American there were colonies demanding a sort of representation from a far away government. The traitorous rebels of the Confederacy were a part of the government. They were NOT trying to leave the control of a governing country. By asserting they were a separate country, they were no more credible than the nutty sovereign citizens who declare themselves free to live outside of the laws of the land.

1) You may think what you want. You may think aliens visit us from time to time and are watching over us. You have every right to think whatever it is you want to think. Your thoughts alone hold no validity here.

2) You are correct on the Emancipation Proclamation applying ONLY to the states in REBELLION. Your point on 'Union states" is at best disingenuous. The EP did not apply to the border states who stayed in the Union and were NOT in rebellion. (framing is important to truthfulness). The EP paved the way for in only a few short years, the 13th amendment abolishing slavery in the Union as a whole.

3) Not very well thought out. Confusing the nation with individuals? Who is going after the descendants of slave holders? Many slaves are themselves descendants of the slave holders. Like it or not reparations are about the government. The USA broke treaties with Native Americans. Do future generations have to pay the price? What does case law say?

 

[Liminal]

There is no constitutional basis for secession, never has been, never could be.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

There is no constitutional basis for secession, never has been, never could be.

Some of the Framers disagreed with your all knowing pronouncements.

The war settled the opinions

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

“The states voluntarily joined the Union, I think they had/have the right to voluntarily leave it.”

American citizens residing in the states may not have their citizenship taken from them against their will, nor can they be forced to leave their state of residence against their will, as the right of citizens to live wherever they so desire in the United States is fundamental.

An American is a citizen of the United States first and foremost, a resident of his state subordinate to that; as a consequence of the nature of American citizenship, a state may not leave the Union unilaterally.

 

[Liminal]

There is no constitutional basis for secession, never has been, never could be.

Some of the Framers disagreed with your all knowing pronouncements.

The war settled the opinions

I guess it's just unfortunate that you are unable to point out the relevant passages.