The Bible is Fiction!

[HUGGY]

Perhaps you could have resisted putting it on this thread.

Bible fiction? How many of the original actors refered to in the bible could read or write? I'm no expert but how much of the general population could read and write? Wouldn't it be true that 2000 years later humans are about a thousand times better educated and think more critically? So how is it that I need a writen list to go to the grocery store and Christians want to take 7 consecutive generations of illiterates verbal hand me down stories for "gospel"? I'm not saying that jesus did not exist but it is quite a stretch to accept accounts as factual.

What comes to mind is that experiment where a story is told to 10 people in a room starting with one person and they turn and relay the story to the next one and so on and so forth until the story has been told to the tenth person. The names and the jist of the story is completely different from the original rendition... And that is within just a few minutes.

The only fall back position is faith. I have little in mans abilities here and now. I have none in the existance of a god. And I have less than any in the education and reliability of man 2000 years ago.

What you feel and emote has nothing to do with the truth, however. Regardless of your beliefs, there is a God, and the bible is more and more considered a factual historical document.

While people may or may not been able to read 3000 years ago, they passed down oral history and traditions which required memory skills we no longer cultivate today. I'm not convinced the Hebrews were illiterate, though. They may not have had printing presses and cheap paper, but I suspect they had a written language which was universally taught to the children.

But I'll have to look into it. Now I'm curious.

You may be right. The Hebrews of Moses' day were barely past the Phoenician era that gave us the first recognizably constructed alphabet and revolutionized the written word. Hebrew writing was almost certainly derived from it.

Bible scholars who have spent a lifetime studying this stuff believe that the ancient Hebrews traveling around the area would stop at religious shrines and leave bits of writings of their thoughts for other travelers to find. It is believed, by many, that some of these writings were incorporated into some of the Old Testament text.

It would be reasonable that the Egyptians, quite culturally advanced for their time, would have educated favored slaves so they would be better able to perform assigned tasks. Those no doubt in turn educated others.

A huge assumption. Paper or anything to write on or with was a scarce commodity and now you are suggesting that "slaves" had or could purchase access to something rare in the possesion of free men? I am afraid too many americans have seen too many bible movies where everybody..slaves included ...speak perfect kings english. Their lives were perfect.. except for the part where they are slaves and everything. They probably had lots of free time being slaves and all. They probably kept thier writing supplies in belly bags while they were building pyramids an shit. Makes perfect sense. Ya think the guys with the whips and the swords were allowing schools for slaves in the rock quarries and the fields? Homework must have been a bitch what with lamps being a luxury. In fact almost everything we would recognise as a possession was a luxury. I wonder what kind of possesions a slave was allowed to have? and...being slaves and everything ...what you wanna bet every aspect of thier lives was at the pleasure and permission of thier owners?

I wonder if the statute of limitations is expired on the Jews for that little "EXODUS"...AKA escape. Here in th USA escape has no such limitations.

 

[Foxfyre]

What you feel and emote has nothing to do with the truth, however. Regardless of your beliefs, there is a God, and the bible is more and more considered a factual historical document.

While people may or may not been able to read 3000 years ago, they passed down oral history and traditions which required memory skills we no longer cultivate today. I'm not convinced the Hebrews were illiterate, though. They may not have had printing presses and cheap paper, but I suspect they had a written language which was universally taught to the children.

But I'll have to look into it. Now I'm curious.

You may be right. The Hebrews of Moses' day were barely past the Phoenician era that gave us the first recognizably constructed alphabet and revolutionized the written word. Hebrew writing was almost certainly derived from it.

Bible scholars who have spent a lifetime studying this stuff believe that the ancient Hebrews traveling around the area would stop at religious shrines and leave bits of writings of their thoughts for other travelers to find. It is believed, by many, that some of these writings were incorporated into some of the Old Testament text.

It would be reasonable that the Egyptians, quite culturally advanced for their time, would have educated favored slaves so they would be better able to perform assigned tasks. Those no doubt in turn educated others.

A huge assumption. Paper or anything to write on or with was a scarce commodity and now you are suggesting that "slaves" had or could purchase access to something rare in the possesion of free men? I am afraid too many americans have seen too many bible movies where everybody..slaves included ...speak perfect kings english. Their lives were perfect.. except for the part where they are slaves and everything. They probably had lots of free time being slaves and all. They probably kept thier writing supplies in belly bags while they were building pyramids an shit. Makes perfect sense. Ya think the guys with the whips and the swords were allowing schools for slaves in the rock quarries and the fields? Homework must have been a bitch what with lamps being a luxury. In fact almost everything we would recognise as a possession was a luxury. I wonder what kind of possesions a slave was allowed to have? and...being slaves and everything ...what you wanna bet every aspect of thier lives was at the pleasure and permission of thier owners?

I wonder if the statute of limitations is expired on the Jews for that little "EXODUS"...AKA escape. Here in th USA escape has no such limitations.

The Hebrew writings were certainly not the "King's English". Devoid of capitalization, punctuation and/or separation between words, both the Phoenician writings and Hebrew writings were a considerable challenge to translate. But what we know of ancient Egyptian culture from the historical and archaelogical record , we know that many slaves were educated for various purposes and many valued slaves were rewarded handsomely by their masters and some no doubt enjoyed considerable luxury. And, if there were Hebrew slaves present, which the record appears to confirm, that would apply to them too.

It seems that the problem may not be with me watching too many movies if you think slavery in ancient times consisted only of the guys with whips and swords abusing slaves in rock quarries.

And if you bothered to check even cursory historical records, Hebrew writings have been found on pottery chards and on clay tablets, both readily accessible to both agricultural and nomadic ancient cultures, but most was engraved or written on parchment--yes, ink was available--even at the times of the ancient Egyptian dynasties including that of Ramses who is noted in both Egyptian and Hebrew writings.

 

[Gadawg73]

Excuse Me!!

Al Gore is Real! How dare you question the greatest intellect of our time. Why--Gore created the internet!! Did you you create the internet? No Al Gore created the internet. Also, with his Clabilities, is able to determine when Florida is going to become part of the Gulf of Mexico.

I am sitting on some future prime beach front property and you want to doubt Al Gore. You are crazy!!!

Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.

(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist. )

Perhaps you could have resisted putting it on this thread.

Bible fiction? How many of the original actors refered to in the bible could read or write? I'm no expert but how much of the general population could read and write? Wouldn't it be true that 2000 years later humans are about a thousand times better educated and think more critically? So how is it that I need a writen list to go to the grocery store and Christians want to take 7 consecutive generations of illiterates verbal hand me down stories for "gospel"? I'm not saying that jesus did not exist but it is quite a stretch to accept accounts as factual.

What comes to mind is that experiment where a story is told to 10 people in a room starting with one person and they turn and relay the story to the next one and so on and so forth until the story has been told to the tenth person. The names and the jist of the story is completely different from the original rendition... And that is within just a few minutes.

The only fall back position is faith. I have little in mans abilities here and now. I have none in the existance of a god. And I have less than any in the education and reliability of man 2000 years ago.

Well said. I agree with most of that.
Jesus was here as many religions speak of him. However, most modern day Christians are indoctrinated instead of being and acting Christlike.

 

[rdean]

I guess this is all just fake BS like your Man Made Global Warming God Al Gore. Egypt Moses

Excuse Me!!

Al Gore is Real! How dare you question the greatest intellect of our time. Why--Gore created the internet!! Did you you create the internet? No Al Gore created the internet. Also, with his Clabilities, is able to determine when Florida is going to become part of the Gulf of Mexico.

I am sitting on some future prime beach front property and you want to doubt Al Gore. You are crazy!!!

Yes! People we've seen on television are always credible unlike those we read about in books.

(And okay, apologies to the group. I just saw this cartoon this morning and couldn't resist. )

I thought this one was even funnier:

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The Bible is Fiction!

First off, ...

true dat.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well said. I agree with most of that.
Jesus was here as many religions speak of him. However, most modern day Christians are indoctrinated instead of being and acting Christlike.

Well the time of Jesus was still a couple of millenium away from the time Huggy is quarreling with me about. So just as it is absurd to insert our 21st century ethics and morality into Roman Empire times, it is equally absurd to insert Christian ethics, morality, understanding, and/or behavior into the ancient Hebrew culture.

 

[Gunny]

First off, Moses and the Egyption slave Jews. There is 0% I MEAN 0% of other evidence that shows Moses, HELL, Jews being slaves in Egypt for that matter is real. Only in the bible. Hmmmm... Really?
Now to Noah. I cannot tell you how STUPID you Christians sound when you talk about "The Arc". There are over 10 BILLION species of animals... 10 f**king BILLION! That sounds plausible!
Evolution has no bearings! Right? The animals were made by GOD! The fact that they all are unique to their environment and slowly change to adjust to varibles... WELL, that's just GOD getting creative with his oven of creation! He works in magical ways!

Look, if you believe in this garbage... and throw logic out of the window... I can't help you. If you get rid of the programmed crap that was embedded in your brain and understand reality, I guess you can see an argument that there is a "guy that looks like us and sounds like us, HELL! he was never created nor can be question for he knows all", might sound alittle CRAZY!

Or is that just me?

Great. Another God-hating fuckwit on the forum shoving his religion off on everyone else.

as opposed to a god loving fuckwit on the forum shoving his religion off on everyone else....

myself ....i care for neither

Want to count them up? Christianity NOT being a parameter; rather, extremist, intolerant idiots that can rival the God hating crew being the parameter. You'll run out of names long before I will.

 

[rdean]

Well said. I agree with most of that.
Jesus was here as many religions speak of him. However, most modern day Christians are indoctrinated instead of being and acting Christlike.

Well the time of Jesus was still a couple of millenium away from the time Huggy is quarreling with me about. So just as it is absurd to insert our 21st century ethics and morality into Roman Empire times, it is equally absurd to insert Christian ethics, morality, understanding, and/or behavior into the ancient Hebrew culture.

I love your "miss me yet" cartoon. They miss him in Iraq. The made a "shoe" monument to Bush and planted a "tree" in it. Odd that. And, they put a poem in front of it praising the guy who through the shoe. Isn't that funny coming from people we "liberated"?

 

[Foxfyre]

To rdean: Cute. No idea whether those are photoshopped, nor do you. But the sort of site you use for source material is quite instructive.

 

[Care4all]

There is some proof that Moses and the exodus did occur, in egyption artifacts and hieroglyphs, also there are caves with some writings of Hebrew nature...using alphabet verses hieroglyphs, which is what the egyptions used....

they may have had the timing wrong, of when it happened...it was not under Ramses but under his grandfather, Amenhotep

There are hieroglyphs showing the parting of the sea/water...describing their plagues....showing a man with a staff fighting against men on chariates, where the water came and knocked the chariot over....these all carved on stone....

I would venture to say that it did occur...

 

[Foxfyre]

There is some proof that Moses and the exodus did occur, in egyption artifacts and hieroglyphs, also there are caves with some writings of Hebrew nature...using alphabet verses hieroglyphs, which is what the egyptions used....

they may have had the timing wrong, of when it happened...it was not under Ramses but under his grandfather, Amenhotep

There are hieroglyphs showing the parting of the sea/water...describing their plagues....showing a man with a staff fighting against men on chariates, where the water came and knocked the chariot over....these all carved on stone....

I would venture to say that it did occur...

Yes you are right about Amenhotep being the probable monarch; however the Hebrew record itself mentions Ramses, so it's just easier to stick with that theory. At least we know we are in the general time frame. Ramses 1 I think reigned for only a year, but some legendary material suggests that he was killed/assassinated for his failure to defeat his enemies. The Hebrews getting the best of him would probably be interpreted (and written) that way rather than any kind of tale about a bunch of slaves besting the Egyptian army.

But I agree that the historical and archaeological record strongly supports the presence of the Hebrews in Egypt about the time that Moses was supposed to have been there.

And kudos to another Bible scholar, though admittedly I'm pretty much still an amateur in the fine details.

 

[rdean]

To rdean: Cute. No idea whether those are photoshopped, nor do you. But the sort of site you use for source material is quite instructive.

Photoshopped? Are you kidding? This statue has been in newspapers all over he world. Something you would never see on Fox.



Saddam's hometown unveils statue dedicated to man who threw shoe at President Bush

Many Iraqis considered it poetic justice when a journalist tossed his shoes at President George W. Bush last month.

Now the bizarre attack has spawned a real life work of art.

A sofa-sized statue of the shoe was unveiled Thursday in Tikrit, the hometown of the former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

Baghdad-based artist Laith al-Amari described the fiberglass-and-copper work as a tribute to the pride of the Iraqi people.

The statue is inscribed with a poem honoring Muntadhar al-Zeidi, the Iraqi journalist who stunned the world when he whipped off his loafers and hurled them at Bush during a press conference on Dec. 14.

In the Arab world, even showing someone the sole of a shoe is considered a sign of disrespect.

bush shoe monument in iraq - Google Search

 

[rdean]

There is some proof that Moses and the exodus did occur, in egyption artifacts and hieroglyphs, also there are caves with some writings of Hebrew nature...using alphabet verses hieroglyphs, which is what the egyptions used....

they may have had the timing wrong, of when it happened...it was not under Ramses but under his grandfather, Amenhotep

There are hieroglyphs showing the parting of the sea/water...describing their plagues....showing a man with a staff fighting against men on chariates, where the water came and knocked the chariot over....these all carved on stone....

I would venture to say that it did occur...

Slaves Didn't Build Pyramids: Egypt : Discovery News

Egypt displayed on Monday newly discovered tombs more than 4,000 years old and said they belonged to people who worked on the Great Pyramids of Giza, putting the discovery forth as more evidence that slaves did not build the ancient monuments.

The series of modest nine-foot-deep shafts held a dozen skeletons of pyramid builders, perfectly preserved by dry desert sand along with jars that once contained beer and bread meant for the workers' afterlife.

The mud-brick tombs were uncovered last week in the backyard of the Giza pyramids, stretching beyond a burial site first discovered in the 1990s and dating to the 4th Dynasty (2575 B.C. to 2467 B.C.), when the great pyramids were built on the fringes of present-day Cairo

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/2010/0111/Egypt-says-Jewish-slaves-didn-t-build-pyramids

Cairo
Egypt displayed on Monday newly discovered tombs more than 4,000 years old and said they belonged to people who worked on the Great Pyramids of Giza, presenting the discovery as more evidence that slaves did not build the ancient monuments.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is some proof that Moses and the exodus did occur, in egyption artifacts and hieroglyphs, also there are caves with some writings of Hebrew nature...using alphabet verses hieroglyphs, which is what the egyptions used....

they may have had the timing wrong, of when it happened...it was not under Ramses but under his grandfather, Amenhotep

There are hieroglyphs showing the parting of the sea/water...describing their plagues....showing a man with a staff fighting against men on chariates, where the water came and knocked the chariot over....these all carved on stone....

I would venture to say that it did occur...

Slaves Didn't Build Pyramids: Egypt : Discovery News

Egypt displayed on Monday newly discovered tombs more than 4,000 years old and said they belonged to people who worked on the Great Pyramids of Giza, putting the discovery forth as more evidence that slaves did not build the ancient monuments.

The series of modest nine-foot-deep shafts held a dozen skeletons of pyramid builders, perfectly preserved by dry desert sand along with jars that once contained beer and bread meant for the workers' afterlife.

The mud-brick tombs were uncovered last week in the backyard of the Giza pyramids, stretching beyond a burial site first discovered in the 1990s and dating to the 4th Dynasty (2575 B.C. to 2467 B.C.), when the great pyramids were built on the fringes of present-day Cairo

That could be an excellent reason why there isn't a single reference to pyramids in any of the Hebrew texts or in the archeological record.

 

[rdean]

Well said. I agree with most of that.
Jesus was here as many religions speak of him. However, most modern day Christians are indoctrinated instead of being and acting Christlike.

Many religions? Examples?

Of course, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all count Abraham as their founder. Of course, Abraham didn't found THREE different religions, only one. Well, it would explain why they all have mostly the same characters and pretty much the same beliefs. In fact, they are way more similar than different.

 

[Care4all]

There is some proof that Moses and the exodus did occur, in egyption artifacts and hieroglyphs, also there are caves with some writings of Hebrew nature...using alphabet verses hieroglyphs, which is what the egyptions used....

they may have had the timing wrong, of when it happened...it was not under Ramses but under his grandfather, Amenhotep

There are hieroglyphs showing the parting of the sea/water...describing their plagues....showing a man with a staff fighting against men on chariates, where the water came and knocked the chariot over....these all carved on stone....

I would venture to say that it did occur...

Slaves Didn't Build Pyramids: Egypt : Discovery News

Egypt displayed on Monday newly discovered tombs more than 4,000 years old and said they belonged to people who worked on the Great Pyramids of Giza, putting the discovery forth as more evidence that slaves did not build the ancient monuments.

The series of modest nine-foot-deep shafts held a dozen skeletons of pyramid builders, perfectly preserved by dry desert sand along with jars that once contained beer and bread meant for the workers' afterlife.

The mud-brick tombs were uncovered last week in the backyard of the Giza pyramids, stretching beyond a burial site first discovered in the 1990s and dating to the 4th Dynasty (2575 B.C. to 2467 B.C.), when the great pyramids were built on the fringes of present-day Cairo

That could be an excellent reason why there isn't a single reference to pyramids in any of the Hebrew texts or in the archeological record.

good point.

 

[Care4all]

FYI-if you have History international channel and have a desire to learn more or expand your minds....a special on the exodus is on right now...

 

[Foxfyre]

To rdean: Cute. No idea whether those are photoshopped, nor do you. But the sort of site you use for source material is quite instructive.

Photoshopped? Are you kidding? This statue has been in newspapers all over he world. Something you would never see on Fox.



Saddam's hometown unveils statue dedicated to man who threw shoe at President Bush

Many Iraqis considered it poetic justice when a journalist tossed his shoes at President George W. Bush last month.

Now the bizarre attack has spawned a real life work of art.

A sofa-sized statue of the shoe was unveiled Thursday in Tikrit, the hometown of the former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

Baghdad-based artist Laith al-Amari described the fiberglass-and-copper work as a tribute to the pride of the Iraqi people.

The statue is inscribed with a poem honoring Muntadhar al-Zeidi, the Iraqi journalist who stunned the world when he whipped off his loafers and hurled them at Bush during a press conference on Dec. 14.

In the Arab world, even showing someone the sole of a shoe is considered a sign of disrespect.

bush shoe monument in iraq - Google Search

Appears to be valid all right. I wouldn't have questioned it if you hadn't linked it from a really juvenile hate site, but if it is real then okay. If it is a fake, it will show up on one of the fact check sites if folks keep posting it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Many religions? Examples?

Of course, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all count Abraham as their founder. Of course, Abraham didn't found THREE different religions, only one. Well, it would explain why they all have mostly the same characters and pretty much the same beliefs. In fact, they are way more similar than different.

In the body of this post is a quote that appears to be attributed to me but that I didn't make. It didn't translate in the coding as I am trying to respond, however.

 

[Foxfyre]

Of course, Christianity, Islam and Judaism all count Abraham as their founder. Of course, Abraham didn't found THREE different religions, only one. Well, it would explain why they all have mostly the same characters and pretty much the same beliefs. In fact, they are way more similar than different.

Christianity does not count Abraham as its founder. Abraham lived thousands of years before Jesus. Jesus of Nazareth was and is the cornerstone of Christianity. Most Christians do consider Abraham to be the one with whom God made his covenant with the People of God and who fathered Isaac from whom the 12 tribes of Israel and also King David and Jesus of Nazareth descended.

The Quran being a far inferior document gives no clear path. In one passage it does seem to trace the seeds of Islam to Abraham's other son, Ishmael; in another alludes to Moses, but the bulk of the Quran places the cornerstone for Islam in Mohammed.

The Jews look to Abraham as the beginning of the story of the chosen people of God from whom the 12 tribes of Israel descended, but place the origin of their faith with God (YHWH) from the very beginning of time and who has been giving them His law and prophecy throughout the telling of the story.

All three religions are sometimes referred to as Abrahamic religions, but that is a misnomer. The misconception comes from Abraham as a shared historical figure included in their respective lore.

Christians and Jews do share some commonality in their beliefs but share almost none with Islam.