Student sues over punishment for Facebook comments

[Steerpike]

The article is here.

Have to run so I don't have much time to comment, except to say that my initial impression is that the student is in the right here.

 

[Shogun]

i'd be curious to see how this gels with the "bong hits for jesus" guy who lost his freedom of speech case.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I wouldn't have done what the girl did, but she had a right to do it. She didn't call for the teacher to be hurt in any physical way. It may have embarrassed the teacher in which case the teacher could have sued for defamation of character.

 

[KittenKoder]

Honestly, that whole "social networking" crap is just pointless. Anyone who takes any of it that seriously has serious issues themselves. Blogs, facebook, etc. are just good ways to vent, better than having them go out and do something worse. It's just the nuts on both sides that take it too far. Everything posted is opinion, live by that and they should do just fine.

 

[random3434]

The article is here.

Have to run so I don't have much time to comment, except to say that my initial impression is that the student is in the right here.

According to Monday's lawsuit, Evans used no profanities and stated no threats against the teacher. The suspension notice from the public school alleged only that Evans "had posted an inappropriate site regarding her teacher on Facebook." Evans is demanding that the suspension be removed from her record

She (the student) did nothing wrong but exercise her free speech. This was done OUT OF SCHOOL, so she shouldn't have been suspended.

She should win her case imo.

 

[pegwinn]

From the article:
Emphasis and Comments (purely opinion unless sourced) added.

<SNIP>

The case highlights the legal challenges facing courts and school administrators as they grapple with campus civil order and free expression in an online world. If the computer used was off campus and the student wasn't required to be in class at that time, then civil order doesn't apply.

<SNIP>

After people's comments derided Evans for the online stunt, and expressed support for the teacher, she deleted the group. But Pembroke Pines Charter High School, which did not respond for comment, suspended Evans for three days for "disruptive behavior" and for "Bullying / Cyber Bullying Harassment towards a staff member," according to the lawsuit, which is backed by the American Civil Liberties Union. As I understand Bullying you are forcing someone to bend to your will by using threats and/or intimidation. It would seem that the school should substantiate the allegation.

Evans was removed from her from advanced placement classes "and forced her into the lesser-weighted honors classes." The lawsuit alleges the black mark on Evans' permanent record is "unjustifiably straining her academic reputation and good standing." Hopefully the allegation will be proven by the girl and her mouthpieces. As to lesser weighted Honors Classes, Phooey. Each class change should be fully documented as a liability precaution. Was she removed from all AP classes or only those where contact with the victim-teacher was likely I wonder?

<SNIP>

<SNIP>

There's no bright-line rule on what constitutes free, student speech in the online world. And as schools start to regulate off-campus student speech on the internet, lawsuits are following. Schools have no business attempting to regulate off campus speech.

<SNIP>

<SNIP>

<SNIP>

But with the explosion of the internet and social networking sites, "The courts are figuring out where the boundaries end and start when it comes to off-campus speech," LoMonte said. It's really simple. Was the damage one on school time or on school equpment?

<SNIP>

The appeal concerns Justin Layshock, who, as a senior and honors student at a Pennsylvania high school, was suspended for 10 days after creating a mock MySpace profile of his principal.

The profile said the principal took drugs and kept beer at his desk. A federal judge overturned the suspension, ruling last year that the fake profile was not created at school and did not create a "substantial disruption."

<SNIP>

<SNIP>

I don't think the Girl was in the wrong. If I were the judge I would toss her out on the street to peddle her victim mentality. Had she or her parents decided to file the suit during the suspension......

 

[Againsheila]

Honestly, that whole "social networking" crap is just pointless. Anyone who takes any of it that seriously has serious issues themselves. Blogs, facebook, etc. are just good ways to vent, better than having them go out and do something worse. It's just the nuts on both sides that take it too far. Everything posted is opinion, live by that and they should do just fine.

She can "say" anything about her teacher she wants, but when she puts it in writing, it becomes slander. It's a lesson she needs to learn now.

That's part of the problem with places like facebook and myspace, kids think it's just chatting between friends, but it isn't. It is putting what you say in writing and whenever you do that, you must be careful. Even the anonymity of the message boards can't save you if the police decide to serve you.

 

[KittenKoder]

She can "say" anything about her teacher she wants, but when she puts it in writing, it becomes slander. It's a lesson she needs to learn now.

That's part of the problem with places like facebook and myspace, kids think it's just chatting between friends, but it isn't. It is putting what you say in writing and whenever you do that, you must be careful. Even the anonymity of the message boards can't save you if the police decide to serve you.

I just think it's all stupid, putting so much weight on what someone online says. I would love to see these sites fall and for people to have to make REAL friends again. Most people don't even know their neighbors these days but they have plenty of acquaintances on the other side of the world.

 

[Steerpike]

She can "say" anything about her teacher she wants, but when she puts it in writing, it becomes slander.

This is a legal conclusion and you haven't supported it. Just because she put something negative in writing doesn't make it slander. She can state a negative opinion of someone without it being slander. You have to meet the legal elements of slander...

 

[catzmeow]

She can "say" anything about her teacher she wants, but when she puts it in writing, it becomes slander. It's a lesson she needs to learn now.

That's part of the problem with places like facebook and myspace, kids think it's just chatting between friends, but it isn't. It is putting what you say in writing and whenever you do that, you must be careful. Even the anonymity of the message boards can't save you if the police decide to serve you.

This is a CIVIL, not law enforcement matter, in my opinion. If the teacher was slandered, the teacher has a right to pursue this matter, including financial damages, in civil court. The school does not, IMO, have the right to silence student speech off campus.

I feel some degree of sympathy towards the student. last year, my daughter had THE WORST English teacher, ever. This woman was assigned to teach all of the honors English classes, and verbally harassed and berated students in class (she made the son of my good friend CRY in class one day). She was clearly not qualified, and was on the way out professionally, and yet the school still allowed her access to students. This woman taught nothing and was emotionally and verbally abusive towards the students. The students themselves had no recourse other than to involve the parents, but when we talked to the principal, we were told, "we can't remove her or the union will sue, we are just waiting for her to retire." And, asking the kids to be moved was pointless, she was the only teacher assigned to teach honors 8th grade.

I suspect this happens more often than not. If kids want to bitch about it online, let them. I don't believe that it is possible for a student to "bully" a teacher. The teacher has significantly more power than the students. If it is a physical matter, then charge the student with assault, but kids are entitled to free speech (and the incumbent responsibilities). More often than not, I think schools are using these tactics to silence any criticism of what they do...

And I can't see how that benefits any of us.

 

[Agnapostate]

i'd be curious to see how this gels with the "bong hits for jesus" guy who lost his freedom of speech case.

Morse v. Frederick was certainly a blow to student free speech rights in that it defined a broad category of disruption, but the fundamental principles of Tinker v. Des Moines, (the Vietnam protest case mentioned in the article), still stand, despite having been chipped away not only by Morse v. Frederick but by Bethel v. Fraser and Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier. Thus, students still have limited Constitutional rights within schools, and an even broader array outside of schools.

I predict that she will win this lawsuit on the grounds that this was valid criticism of the teacher that could have conceivably even been legally expressed within the school, and especially so outside of the school. The messages she posted don't seem to have been slanderous, libelous, or in any other way defamatory, which requires both the reporting of untrue statements and the express knowledge, (or what should have been the reasonable knowledge), that the statements were untrue. Things may be hampered for her depending on whether or not the federal court is unreceptive. If not, I am unsure how much better the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals would be, and a Supreme Court appeal might not be successful considering that a majority hostile to student Constitutional rights is currently on the Court, and at least one Justice, (Clarence Thomas), opposes student Constitutional rights altogether.

 

[Againsheila]

This is a CIVIL, not law enforcement matter, in my opinion. If the teacher was slandered, the teacher has a right to pursue this matter, including financial damages, in civil court. The school does not, IMO, have the right to silence student speech off campus.

I feel some degree of sympathy towards the student. last year, my daughter had THE WORST English teacher, ever. This woman was assigned to teach all of the honors English classes, and verbally harassed and berated students in class (she made the son of my good friend CRY in class one day). She was clearly not qualified, and was on the way out professionally, and yet the school still allowed her access to students. This woman taught nothing and was emotionally and verbally abusive towards the students. The students themselves had no recourse other than to involve the parents, but when we talked to the principal, we were told, "we can't remove her or the union will sue, we are just waiting for her to retire." And, asking the kids to be moved was pointless, she was the only teacher assigned to teach honors 8th grade.

I suspect this happens more often than not. If kids want to bitch about it online, let them. I don't believe that it is possible for a student to "bully" a teacher. The teacher has significantly more power than the students. If it is a physical matter, then charge the student with assault, but kids are entitled to free speech (and the incumbent responsibilities). More often than not, I think schools are using these tactics to silence any criticism of what they do...

And I can't see how that benefits any of us.

Trust me, I have seen more than my share of bad teachers. I would not however, post their names and problems online. I did pull my son out of one teachers class and let the school district know that she shouldn't be teaching. Fortunately I wasn't the only parent to complain and the teacher never did finish out the year. The damage she did to my son though, is still being undone.

She has the right to complain about her teacher, she does not have the right to post her teache's name and start a hate campaign against her.

Remember the girl that killed herself and the mother that went to jail for harassment? It goes both ways.

 

[jillian]

She can "say" anything about her teacher she wants, but when she puts it in writing, it becomes slander. It's a lesson she needs to learn now.

Actually, that's incorrect. Written or verbal, defamation is still defamation.

slander is verbal

define:slander - Google Search

libel is written

define:libel - Google Search

 

[Againsheila]

Actually, that's incorrect. Written or verbal, defamation is still defamation.

slander is verbal

define:slander - Google Search

libel is written

define:libel - Google Search

Thanks for the lesson. My point is, that when you put it in writing, you must be able to back up what you say. It's better she learn this lesson now.

 

[Agnapostate]

Trust me, I have seen more than my share of bad teachers. I would not however, post their names and problems online. I did pull my son out of one teachers class and let the school district know that she shouldn't be teaching. Fortunately I wasn't the only parent to complain and the teacher never did finish out the year. The damage she did to my son though, is still being undone.

She has the right to complain about her teacher, she does not have the right to post her teache's name and start a hate campaign against her.

Remember the girl that killed herself and the mother that went to jail for harassment? It goes both ways.

You might think it an immoral or unethical thing to do, but she most certainly has the Constitutional right to openly criticize and attack a teacher that she has identified by name, especially since it was an out-of-school activity.

I wasn't aware that Lori Drew was already in jail, but you are begging the question in that you seemingly assume that we will agree with that ruling. In reality, that ruling was very fucking dangerous. What it essentially declared was that using a false name on the Internet was now illegal. Those who relished the conviction as some sort of crude vengeance have ignored this critical fact.

 

[KGB]

see, this is the sort of crap these moronic kids come up with & their goofy parents support....this is why we produce a nation of Dancing with the Stars addicts instead of engineers & scientists.....

 

[Agnapostate]

see, this is the sort of crap these moronic kids come up with & their goofy parents support....this is why we produce a nation of Dancing with the Stars addicts instead of engineers & scientists.....

I know, huh? What have those morons who invented the First Amendment ever done for us?!

 

[jillian]

Thanks for the lesson. My point is, that when you put it in writing, you must be able to back up what you say. It's better she learn this lesson now.

You're correct that the real point is what one says has to be true and just because someone can post something on line doesn't mean they can say whatever they feel like.

Is anyone even addressing whether what the girl said is untrue or not?

BTW, opinions are protected speech. And putting that disgusting woman in jail who used the internet to emotionally abuse a girl into suicide is just fine with me. It's about personal responsibility, no? I don't believe in censorship, but that woman was reckless in her behavior.

 

[Amanda]

Maybe I'm biased because I didn't have a very good school experience but all of this just says out loud what I always thought: Schools want absolute control and students must bow to their authority absolutely.

Honestly, it never felt like academics was the highest priority to me. Maybe this was because I was in a lot of remedial classes, but you'd think teaching kids stuff would be the highest goal. it seems to me the highest goal is getting kids to submit to authority.

 

[Gem]

It worries me that we have become a society where parents are just pleased as punch that their daughter is using a Facebook page to insult and demean her teacher...rather than instructing their obviously bright and mature daughter to handle her differences as an adult or speaking with the teacher about the conflict during a parent-teacher conference. Instead, parents are just tickled that their children are "exercising their rights" and sue the school district for trying to protect their teachers (and students) from being demeaned, ridiculed, and harassed online.

Interestingly...each year schools are also faced with the exact opposite. Parents who are just horrified that their child's ex-boyfriend or girlfriend have posted harassing or obscene photos, statements, etc. and that their child is devastated and no longer wants to go to school. They seek help from school administrators to make sure that their children are not harassed and can attend school in peace...hence the creation of "Cyber-bullying laws."

So who is right?

It seems to me that all to often our society wants it both ways when it comes to schools protecting our children. Protect them at all costs, punish people who harm them...provide them with health care, social care, food and clothing...unless the punishment is directed towards MY child or I disapprove of a policy that has been in place but didn't matter to me until it did...then you violated his/her rights and should be sued.

In the past, students did their harassing on the playground, in the halls...at the bus stop...before and after school face to face or with rumor. Schools did their best to address the issues when they were done publically...often hampering a student's "freedom of speech" when it came to calling names, spreading rumors, or bullying.

We now have a new medium...online communication. If your contention is that a student has the right to say whatever he or she wants to about her teachers or fellow students that is fine...you certainly have a strong and very valid point.

However...I remain concerned about our society when we seem to be embracing a "I can say whatever I want and you can't do anything about it, hahahha" attitude. That in no way means that I want free speech to be stopped...but perhaps, I want people to go back to a time when we seemed to understand that just because we could say anything we wanted didn't mean we should.