Student Loan Bail Out Highlights the Problem With How America Values Education

candycorn

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Aug 25, 2009
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Deep State Plant.
I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:
  • If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
  • Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
  • A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
  • I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.
So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.
 
I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:
  • If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
  • Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
  • A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
  • I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.
So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.
This is unbelievably stupid, as is most of what children are forced to do in college.

Why?

Most of what children learn in college is never used at their jobs.

The exception being degrees requiring math and science. These fields require them to be good in those subjects. But we all know the girl who got her 4 year degree in Woman's Studies who is now working at Burger King and owes $50,000 in student debt.

She may as well have gone to Trump U. The only difference is, people will yell foul who went to Trump U will maybe get their money back because people only hold Trump to account for what he does an no one else seemingly, as we see with Left wing colleges as no one calls out those colleges for not properly preparing students for the world job market even though it is all just a con game to indoctrinate children into wokeism. They have essentially been robbed with debt that is the worst debt to have since government has made it near impossible to get out of, even in bankruptcy. It is criminal.

Or we all know the nurse that went to school to be a nurse for 2 years and has been a nurse for 20 years and is forced to go back to school for their 4 year degree because the hospital says they need to do so.

Why?

Total stupidity.

College is too expensive and does not prepare children enough for the real job market.

The kicker is, they are all clueless about how to handle money which is the main problem with the economy today, children are clueless how to handle money.

That is why we also know children who run up debt in college and are still paying on those student loans after they reach 60 years of age.
 
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This is unbelievably stupid, as is most of what children are forced to do in college.
Gee, I was hoping you'd have a moment of clarity....no such luck.
Why?

Most of what children learn in college is never used at their jobs.
And since you can't make a buck off it or monetize it...you shouldn't learn it?

That is the exact fault of our current educational system.

But we all know the girl who got her 4 year degree in Woman's Studies who is now working at Burger King and owes $50,000 in student debt.
Really? What is her name?
She may as well have gone to Trump U. The only difference is, people will yell foul who went to Trump U will maybe get their money back, but no one calls out colleges for not properly preparing students for the world job market even though it is all just a con game to indoctrinate children into wokeism.
And somehow Trump gets mentioned....wow. Culters are going to cult.
Or we all know the nurse that went to school to be a nurse for 2 years and has been a nurse for 20 years and is forced to go back to school for their 4 year degree because the hospital says they need to do so.
Again, what is her name?
Why?

Total stupidity.
Not even remotely true. Staffing at a hospital requires a certain skill set. An LVN doesn't have that skill set in many cases. There are a plethora of things an LVN is qualified to do. And there are a plethora of things an LVN is not qualified to do both by training and by hospital policy. The policy is in place for two reasons: One (and I imagine the chief reason) is litigation. Secondly is accreditation.
College is too expensive and does not prepare children enough for the real job market.

The kicker is, they are all clueless about how to handle money which is the main problem with the economy today, children are clueless how to handle money.

That is why we also know children who run up debt in college and are still paying on those student loans after they reach 60 years of age.
And from those statements it's clear you didn't read what I posted.
 
I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:
  • If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
  • Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
  • A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
  • I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.
So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.

Problem is, the undereducated, those who will never go to college, will never reach the point of making a decent argument in their head, never get to put all those pieces of information together to understand the benefits to SOCIETY of an educated workforce.

All the happens is someone tells them they're not getting money other people are getting and they get angry, because anger is how they experience the world.
 
Problem is, the undereducated, those who will never go to college, will never reach the point of making a decent argument in their head, never get to put all those pieces of information together to understand the benefits to SOCIETY of an educated workforce.

All the happens is someone tells them they're not getting money other people are getting and they get angry, because anger is how they experience the world.
I think the plan that I relayed above does that.

You're told you can go to truck driving school, learn to weld, or start your college degree (or get an entire 2 year degree) and pay it back for like $80 a month.... it wouldn't be a hard choice for many.
 
The clever and amoral manipulate the meager minds and meek accommodators. Until we confront that principle of history, we will maintain the present system of exploitation.
It is difficult to understand, in this specific case of loans and debt, why the burden should fall upon tax payers. If institutions of learning and loaning committed misdeeds, they should pay.
 
I think the plan that I relayed above does that.

You're told you can go to truck driving school, learn to weld, or start your college degree (or get an entire 2 year degree) and pay it back for like $80 a month.... it wouldn't be a hard choice for many.

I'm not sure I like your plan. Telling people there's money there, it's the kind of thing open to abuse. "Hey, we got this course, costs a lot, you do nothing, get a certificate at the end of it, get to party for three years" kind of thing.

I think what we need is a system where kids are directed towards jobs that are needed, directed towards skills (at school) that they'll need in the future.

College is all well and good, but a lot of people got to college when they don't need to. You made a comment about History making people more interesting, but doesn't necessarily give them the skills they need for their job. What's the point?

History is a great tool for getting people to think, and we need thinkers. Changing education to a SKILLS BASED education is a must, but something politicians aren't too keen on because it doesn't look good, because people are used to a subject based education.
Set up courses in critical thinking, instead of History, get kids talking about things, about sex, relationships, life, desires, so they can understand other people. Manipulating other people is the biggest money maker out there.

As to funding, make courses that are essential, free. Make courses that give work skills free. It's easy.
 
I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:
  • If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
  • Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
  • A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
  • I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.
So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.
This is well thought out and worth exploring.
 
College is not intended as training for a specific job, in order to make money. College is intended to educate on a variety of subjects.

A well educated population is, and always has been, a huge asset for our nation. But unlike most industrialized nations, the US has priced it out of the reach of most Americans.

I like the way candycorn's plan includes trade schools and vocational training. Which is intended as training for a specific job or field.
 
I'm not sure I like your plan.
Thats fine.
Telling people there's money there, it's the kind of thing open to abuse. "Hey, we got this course, costs a lot, you do nothing, get a certificate at the end of it, get to party for three years" kind of thing.
They can do that. But unlike the current system, whenever they get a job using a social security number, Uncle Sam is going to deduct money from every paycheck...it will be taken out of your check irregardless of whether you're using the skills you didn't learn or not.
I think what we need is a system where kids are directed towards jobs that are needed, directed towards skills (at school) that they'll need in the future.
I have no problem with that myself. Seems anti-freedom to direct people to jobs instead of what they want to do.
College is all well and good, but a lot of people got to college when they don't need to. You made a comment about History making people more interesting, but doesn't necessarily give them the skills they need for their job. What's the point?
To learn for the sake of learning.
History is a great tool for getting people to think, and we need thinkers.
Agreed.
Changing education to a SKILLS BASED education is a must, but something politicians aren't too keen on because it doesn't look good, because people are used to a subject based education.
Set up courses in critical thinking, instead of History, get kids talking about things, about sex, relationships, life, desires, so they can understand other people. Manipulating other people is the biggest money maker out there.

As to funding, make courses that are essential, free. Make courses that give work skills free. It's easy.
There is no free lunch...someone pays. I think those who get the skills and training should be the ones who pay myself. What the plan I described does is make the person getting those skills pay...but instead of having an 18 y/o bet their entire future on their liking archeology or medicine or even basket weaving or women's studies....the plan doesn't saddle the student with debt that an 18 y/o likely can't possibly understand.
 
College is not intended as training for a specific job, in order to make money. College is intended to educate on a variety of subjects.

A well educated population is, and always has been, a huge asset for our nation. But unlike most industrialized nations, the US has priced it out of the reach of most Americans.

I like the way candycorn's plan includes trade schools and vocational training. Which is intended as training for a specific job or field.
Its not my plan. I heard it somewhere. I may have described it differently than the person who came up with it did but I captured the gist of it.
 
Thats fine.

They can do that. But unlike the current system, whenever they get a job using a social security number, Uncle Sam is going to deduct money from every paycheck...it will be taken out of your check irregardless of whether you're using the skills you didn't learn or not.

I have no problem with that myself. Seems anti-freedom to direct people to jobs instead of what they want to do.

To learn for the sake of learning.

Agreed.

There is no free lunch...someone pays. I think those who get the skills and training should be the ones who pay myself. What the plan I described does is make the person getting those skills pay...but instead of having an 18 y/o bet their entire future on their liking archeology or medicine or even basket weaving or women's studies....the plan doesn't saddle the student with debt that an 18 y/o likely can't possibly understand.

It's hardly anti-freedom directing people towards jobs. They still get to choose. I worked a year in a HTL, technical school, and a Gymnasium in Austria. They could choose what they did, only the programs that actually existed were pushing people towards things.

Imagine if you had a number of programs open for the skills needed, and closed down those pointless ones. People then can choose, only they can't choose the things that don't exist. Such is freedom.

There is no free lunch. But an educated society will earn more money and it pays for itself. Some people will get educated and it won't work out, other people won't get skills but will still benefit from a society with more money.
 
I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:
  • If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
  • Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
  • A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
  • I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.
So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.
There's a flaw in that whole idea, and it's this. The less a student and his/her family has to contribute to the cost of an education, the more expensive that education gets. This is the kind of thing the government either needs to take over completely or get out of completely. If the government is picking up ever increasing portions of the cost to the student, the total cost of the education is just going to keep going up. In fact, that is one of the biggest drivers of the astronomical rise in college costs we've been seeing. The schools have little to no incentive to keep costs down because the government is right there with the loans.

The end result will ultimately be government controlled and paid for education.
 
There's a flaw in that whole idea, and it's this. The less a student and his/her family has to contribute to the cost of an education, the more expensive that education gets. This is the kind of thing the government either needs to take over completely or get out of completely. If the government is picking up ever increasing portions of the cost to the student, the total cost of the education is just going to keep going up. In fact, that is one of the biggest drivers of the astronomical rise in college costs we've been seeing. The schools have little to no incentive to keep costs down because the government is right there with the loans.

The end result will ultimately be government controlled and paid for education.
There is truth in what you’re saying.

This is one reason for the averaging of ten public schools. If a school raises its tuition or fees too much, the students will gravitate to schools that haven’t.
 
College is not intended as training for a specific job, in order to make money. College is intended to educate on a variety of subjects.

A well educated population is, and always has been, a huge asset for our nation. But unlike most industrialized nations, the US has priced it out of the reach of most Americans.

I like the way candycorn's plan includes trade schools and vocational training. Which is intended as training for a specific job or field.
BS

College is tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars

College is a business decision or one for rich parents.
 
Gee, I was hoping you'd have a moment of clarity....no such luck.

And since you can't make a buck off it or monetize it...you shouldn't learn it?

That is the exact fault of our current educational system.



Really? What is her name?

And somehow Trump gets mentioned....wow. Culters are going to cult.

Again, what is her name?

Not even remotely true. Staffing at a hospital requires a certain skill set. An LVN doesn't have that skill set in many cases. There are a plethora of things an LVN is qualified to do. And there are a plethora of things an LVN is not qualified to do both by training and by hospital policy. The policy is in place for two reasons: One (and I imagine the chief reason) is litigation. Secondly is accreditation.

And from those statements it's clear you didn't read what I posted.
Again, what is her name?

Sarah

Happy?
 
BS

College is tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars

College is a business decision or one for rich parents.
It is now. It wasn't always so. There was a time not too long ago when a person could get a college education by working a part or full time job and taking classes off hours. Many a student did that and graduated without much or any debt.
 
I've mentioned this a few times here and there in different iterations but since President Biden has announced that some student loans are being forgiven, it seems appropriate to bring it up again.

Our current model of going to school, then going to college, and then getting a job has served America very well. The number of patents, the number of Nobel Prize winners, the GDP, etc... all tell the tale. The system works. It even works in areas that put such little value on education that being educated is seen as some sort of weakness; it's no coincidence that these places are also the most impoverished in the nation.

What isn't working so well is the way America thinks about education and leaves it up to the individuals to figure out how to get one. It's brazenly stupid on a number of levels. Chief amongst these are:
  • If you don't have parents who encourage education, you're less likely to value it yourself.
  • Having an educated workforce isn't an option for competitiveness...it is mandatory
  • A college diploma is a great goal for some. For others, it shouldn't be forced upon them as we have done in many areas
  • I'll add this one in...Education for the sake of education, in some cases, should be stressed. Studying history makes you a more interesting person even if your vocation or career is not dependent on knowing about the Lend/Lease program or what Magellan did.
So what I think we should do is to take the Social Security system--another proven winner of a program--and flip it on it's head to where you get the benefits at the age of 18 (or 28, or 38, or 48) and pay for it later during your work life. You pay into Social Security during your work life and get the benefits when you retire. In the plan I'm referencing, you get the benefits and pay back the "loan" through your earnings in the same way you pre-pay for social security...payroll deduction.

Who Qualifies?
When you've reached your 16th birthday, you can get student aid if you want. No qualifying. You don't have to take it.

How much can you get?
But it is there for you. Lets say you're in zip code 85002. The amount of aid you can get is the average semester hour of up to ten of the closest state-supported colleges or universities there are. So at 85002, you have Maricopa County Comm College, Arizona State, City College of Phoenix (if there still is one), Wesstern New Mexico State, South West Colorado State, etc... Set a radius from your residence of about 250-500 miles or so. The purpose is to get an average semester hour cost. So lets just say it's $500 a semester hour--just for the ease of math. The federal government, instead of asking you to take out a loan or try to qualify for grants or whatever, puts 60 semester hours into a bank for which only they have access. $500 X 60 = $30,000. Nobody is giving anyone $30,000 in cash. This is only used for education related expenses paid out by Uncle Sam itself. Chase, Wells Fargo, etc... have no role to play. Neither does the student really. They just get semester hours paid for.

How is it paid back?
Repayment is done through payroll deduction over your work life. You can pay it back sooner if you want. The payback terms are generous--over 30 years or so. So if you get 26 paychecks in a year and you've taken $30K, you will pay back $1,000 a year. Divide that by 26 paychecks and you will pay back $38.47 a paycheck. Add some interest and round it up to $40 or so. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. Older borrowers would have a slightly accelerated payback period or course.

How Can It be Used?
Here is where the current system really sucks from what I can see. You're asking a kid who is 18 to take on $60,000 in debt with no real plan to pay it back. Maybe they decide they don't want to be a nurse or think teaching is their goal in life only to find they don't like teaching. Did you know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18? Me neither.

Just some examples:

A 16 y/o who doesn't want to go to college. She wants to become a beautician. If there is a certificate to becoming a beautician at a local junior college, the government states that you're going to have to go to Maricopa County Junior College instead of DeVry. Sorry. If there isn't a beautician course there, she can go to DeVry.

A 50 y/o mechanic wants to open his own shop. He wants to take courses in business management. He can utilize the funds to take those courses.

A conventional welder wants to expand his craft to become an underwater welder. He can take courses to do so free of charge.

An 18 y/o who graduates High School and wants to go to a 4 year college out of state--Lets say Ohio State. She can take her $30,000 and apply it for the first _________ number of classes at Ohio State. It may pay for one year. The rest is on her through student loans, grants, work study, etc...

A middle-management night auditor at a nationally accredited hospital would like to take courses on learning to play a harp. She can do that but she has to realize that the funding will be taken out of her future paychecks whether or not she makes a cent playing the harp or not.

=====

The point is to get as many college educated persons into the workforce as possible. It isn't a matter of "it would be nice to have an educated work force"...it is a necessity. Hopefully it will lead to more content providers (labor being their content). Those are the true drivers of the economy. Content consumption is a multi billion dollar industry as well and more income in the pockets of average Americans via increased productivity, increased wages, and some entrepreneurial spirit will allow for that as well. We'll still have some students who are in debt...but this will flatten that curve as well.
I agree as long as schools are required to teach home economics and how the US economy works in general.
 
It is now. It wasn't always so. There was a time not too long ago when a person could get a college education by working a part or full time job and taking classes off hours. Many a student did that and graduated without much or any debt.A

Agreed.

Colleges were originally started by Christians, but to be a Christian today at one of these woke places of uniform learning is to be an outcast. And, if you look at these woke cult members wrong they need a safe place to hide from you if they get offended.
 

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