Still one country after all!

[DavidS]

Palestine was only an Arab area for 200 years or so. If they lay claim to 200 years, surely many other previous organizations can lay claim to the land because for existing there longer. And if we want to give the organization that existed there longer than any other one, the land is for the Jews, for we existed there for thousands of years.

Think about it - from the time Christ was born to today one country remained under the Jewish people. What other country do you know of today that is as it was 2000 years ago?

It's quite amazing.

This dude's delusional.

The part you quoted was comprised completely of facts. Do you have facts to counterpoint what I said?
Arab Caliphate rule (638–1099 CE)
461 years

Crusader rule (1099–1187 CE)
88 years

Mamluk rule (1270–1516 CE)
246 years

Ottoman rule (1516–1917 CE)
401 years

Ancient Israel and Judah

2000 BCE - 63 BCE, 1948 - 2009
1,937 years, 61 years

In two years the Jewish people will have ruled over Israel for 2000 years.

 

[Zein El Nour]

Before the modern state of Israel was created, all the people, Jews, Muslims/Arabs, Christians, etc., who lived in the Mandate were called Palestinians. Since that time the Jews, some of the Muslims/Arabs and others became Israelis and those who remained in the land west of the Jordan River but did not become Israelis can be called Palestinians as a geographic designation,

Good so now, we have established that there is something called Palestinian.

but that does not imply there is or ever was a state of Palestine.

nor was there any "state" in whole region before the 20th century.

That the Palestinians have chosen to remain stateless rather than to accept a peaceful two state solution is indisputable. They clearly refused that UN's offer of an Arab state next to the Jewish state of Israel in 1948, and as your original post points out, the insistence on a right of return is tantamount to a rejection of a peaceful two state solution. Since Israel will continue to exist as a Jewish state, as a practical matter, the only alternative to a peaceful two state solution is for the Palestinians to remain stateless.

Q.E.D.: The Palestinians choose to remain stateless.

The Palestinians, refused to have their land divided. They did not choose to become stateless. They merely refused what they saw as a grave injustice. - Jesus Christ did not choose to be crucified. He stood up to injustice and polytheism.

The Palestinian refused the notion of a racist regime, that discriminated against most of them was being created on their land! They thus became stateless - one more injustice to be added to their record!

 

[toomuchtime_]

Before the modern state of Israel was created, all the people, Jews, Muslims/Arabs, Christians, etc., who lived in the Mandate were called Palestinians. Since that time the Jews, some of the Muslims/Arabs and others became Israelis and those who remained in the land west of the Jordan River but did not become Israelis can be called Palestinians as a geographic designation,

Good so now, we have established that there is something called Palestinian.

but that does not imply there is or ever was a state of Palestine.

nor was there any "state" in whole region before the 20th century.

That the Palestinians have chosen to remain stateless rather than to accept a peaceful two state solution is indisputable. They clearly refused that UN's offer of an Arab state next to the Jewish state of Israel in 1948, and as your original post points out, the insistence on a right of return is tantamount to a rejection of a peaceful two state solution. Since Israel will continue to exist as a Jewish state, as a practical matter, the only alternative to a peaceful two state solution is for the Palestinians to remain stateless.

Q.E.D.: The Palestinians choose to remain stateless.

The Palestinians, refused to have their land divided. They did not choose to become stateless. They merely refused what they saw as a grave injustice. - Jesus Christ did not choose to be crucified. He stood up to injustice and polytheism.

The Palestinian refused the notion of a racist regime, that discriminated against most of them was being created on their land! They thus became stateless - one more injustice to be added to their record!

Then you agree with me that they prefer to remain stateless rather than to accept a peaceful two state solution with the Jewish state of Israel.

 

[editec]

Oh looky.. David the jew felt the urge to stick his hooked fucking nose into another thread trying to invalidate palis..

I'm pissing YOU off? Big fucking deal, mr chamberlain. When you start posting your fucking input when Ole Dave is busy calling for the extermination of Muslims and the bombing of arabs during religious ceremonies then perhaps a statement like that will have more teeth than a denture wearing granny looking to pacify jews long enough to feel tritely self righteous, as it is now.

I KNOW DAvidS is hopeless.

You, on the other hand, there's still hope for.

You don't realize that the way you post invalidates your (often) otherwise good arguments?

Well your uncle editec is here to help you overcome that anger managment problem of yours.

Much as your uncle editec is here to help himself overcome his own anger management problems.

 

[jillian]

I KNOW DAvidS is hopeless.

You, on the other hand, there's still hope for.

You don't realize that the way you post invalidates your (often) otherwise good arguments?

Well your uncle editec is here to help you overcome that anger managment problem of yours.

Much as your uncle editec is here to help himself overcome his own anger management problems.

He talks about "hook-nosed jews" and you still think there's hope for him?

I find it really amusing that anyone still thinks he's deserving of defense.

He's disgusting. And no, his hatred makes him beyond hopeless... ask him... jews deserved to die because they didn't leave Germany and you know, they should have known and all... and now jews are supposed to die because apparently the fact that Israel was always a place where Jews lived escapes him. When asked where Jews should go, he said "Utah".

Sorry... you're defending someone beyond redemption. And, frankly, I find it beyond my comprehension that anyone can "agree with a lot of what he says".

 

[Zein El Nour]

Then you agree with me that they prefer to remain stateless rather than to accept a peaceful two state solution with the Jewish state of Israel.

Yes it is their fault that the British decided to create a racist regime on their land.

It is their fault that this regime was created through ethnic cleansing.

And yes that they preferred to stay stateless, and sometimes even die, for a just cause! (But I am sure that the reason you'd give for that is that they are irrational death loving masochists)

Damn all those people who actually made sacrifices in order for justice to prevail! Justice is so overrated anyway! Right?

Long live the righteous racist Israeli regime...

 

[Shogun]

I KNOW DAvidS is hopeless.

You, on the other hand, there's still hope for.

You don't realize that the way you post invalidates your (often) otherwise good arguments?

Well your uncle editec is here to help you overcome that anger managment problem of yours.

Much as your uncle editec is here to help himself overcome his own anger management problems.

He talks about "hook-nosed jews" and you still think there's hope for him?

I find it really amusing that anyone still thinks he's deserving of defense.

He's disgusting. And no, his hatred makes him beyond hopeless... ask him... jews deserved to die because they didn't leave Germany and you know, they should have known and all... and now jews are supposed to die because apparently the fact that Israel was always a place where Jews lived escapes him. When asked where Jews should go, he said "Utah".

Sorry... you're defending someone beyond redemption. And, frankly, I find it beyond my comprehension that anyone can "agree with a lot of what he says".

Thats pretty fucking funny coming from a princess whose sole rebuttal amounts to, "uh, welll YOU want to see dead jews floating in the sea!" REMEMBER THAT, jill? Or, were we supposed to look the other way while you sweep your bullshit, and that of DavidS, under the kosher rug? Just this weekend DavidS WISHED that it were live rounds instead of tear gas cans that fucked up the protestor... Yet, where were YOU to dole out your reflexive criticism?

oh yea.. duh.. THAT only applies to dirty fucking goyim!

and no, I've never said jews deserve shit because "they didn't leave germany". QUOTE ME, bitch. I dare you.

And yes, if the west were giving out land then they should not be giving out land that is OCCUPIED BY MILLIONS OF FUCKING MUSLIMS. You know, like UTAH.. but then, we'd be seeing mormons killing jews instead of arabs and YOUD be on here screaming about how every mormon is born with a bomb in one hand and a reason to become cast lead fodder in the other.


Face it, bitch, you have no problem HATING while trying to accuse someone OF HATING. It's as clear as the team jersey you wear on these threads. Not only do you oppose making israel AS EQUAL to it's ethnicities as America is to your jewish ass but you selectively apply your criticism without nary the slightest hint of directing that shit at a jew. Your total fucking silence regarding DavidS utterly destroys your kosher camouflage, bitch.


Again, do you REALLY think no one notices how selective you are? NOT TO MENTION that the opinion that YOU find so fucking threatening (enough to rant on about my posts, ironically) is ETHNIC EQUALITY IN ISRAEL. WOW! What a CRAZY concept, jew! After all, if YOU have no real claim to America and WE still allow you the EXACT same consideration under OUR constittuion then what do you really think it says about YOU when YOUR biggest fucking fear is a non-exclusive JEWISH nation of israel?

By all means, bitch, keep being ironic in your condemnation.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Then you agree with me that they prefer to remain stateless rather than to accept a peaceful two state solution with the Jewish state of Israel.

Yes it is their fault that the British decided to create a racist regime on their land.

It is their fault that this regime was created through ethnic cleansing.

And yes that they preferred to stay stateless, and sometimes even die, for a just cause! (But I am sure that the reason you'd give for that is that they are irrational death loving masochists)

Damn all those people who actually made sacrifices in order for justice to prevail! Justice is so overrated anyway! Right?

Long live the righteous racist Israeli regime...

Nothing but propaganda slogans. Try dealing with the facts.

First off, the UN created Israel after the British declined to.

How could there be ethnic cleansing when the Arabs who left Israel chose to leave and then declined to petition the state to return?

How can Israel be racist when Israeli Arabs have the same rights under the law as Israeli Jews do? In this context, would the Arabs have been as outraged if the land had been taken over by an Arab tyrant such as Saddam? Isn't it true that the Arabs object to Israel only because it is a Jewish state and not because of any of its policies or actions? Doesn't that make the Palestinian cause nothing more than a violent and bloody expression of racist hatred?

Getting back to the subject of whose land it is, when you call it "their land" do you mean it is their's in the sense of private property rights or as a political entity? If you mean private property rights, Israeli law recognizes the validity of Ottoman and British deeds, so those rights are as safe and secure under Israel law as they would be under the laws of any other country. If you mean as a political entity, the land was never "their's" although who they were changed often over the centuries and even after the Jews began returning to Israel in the late 19th century.

 

[Neser Boha]

Warning: Totally Fucking off topic:

I KNOW DAvidS is hopeless.

You, on the other hand, there's still hope for.

You don't realize that the way you post invalidates your (often) otherwise good arguments?

Well your uncle editec is here to help you overcome that anger managment problem of yours.

Much as your uncle editec is here to help himself overcome his own anger management problems.

You know, Shogun's post make me both shudder (circa 30%) and laugh my ass off (70% - definitely a vast majority)at different times and different statements... He does have some great points, which he unfortunately overshadows with the constant name-calling... However, encountering a delusional bonehead like DavidS - it's understandable.

I love Shogun's expressions such as 'pet state', 'stone age real estate', and 'burning bush mythology' .... totally love it. And I've laughed my ass off at his fat jokes too... yeah, a guilty pleasure of mine. But that is the main reason why I come to USMB - to entertain myself and Shogun provides some top notch entertainment

Sorry, Shogun... I know it's impolite to talk behind one's back... but I'm sure you couldn't care less... Carry on... I'll just grab some popcorn. Just so you know, I'm not making fun of you, I really do enjoy most of your posts... srsly. Thanks.

Keep it up guys!

 

[Zein El Nour]

Nothing but propaganda slogans. Try dealing with the facts.

As if repeating the Palestinians don't want a state nor peace is not a slogan!

First off, the UN created Israel after the British declined to.

No the UN actually put a "partition plan" which has not implemented till now! The creation of the Israeli regime was a de facto creation, after a British promise to the zionist movement!

How could there be ethnic cleansing when the Arabs who left Israel chose to leave and then declined to petition the state to return?

Chose to leave????????????????

In "1948 and After" Benny Morris examines the first phase of the exodus and produces a detailed analysis of a source that he considers basically reliable: a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948". This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. "At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis.

In the opening pages of "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Benny Morris offers the outlines of an overall answer: using a map that shows the 369 Arab towns and villages in Israel (within its 1949 borders), he lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population (9). In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were EXPELLED by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or in fear of an enemy attack, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin, when the news of the killings swept the country like wildfire.

How can Israel be racist when Israeli Arabs have the same rights under the law as Israeli Jews do?

Do they now?

At least twenty Israeli laws discriminate against Arab Christian and Muslim Israelis either by excluding them while providing specific rights to the Jewish population, according different rights to different sectors of the population, or by abridging the rights of the Arab Israelis:

Such discriminatory laws touch on all aspects of life, including laws restricting immigration and citizenship, several legislations expropriating land and restricting land use and ownership, quasi-governmental status given to solely Jewish bodies such as the Jewish Agency and the World Zionist Organization, laws designating Jewish symbols and national holidays (while ignoring Arab holidays and religious dates), as well as laws mandating separate and unequal educational and cultural systems.

Isn't it true that the Arabs object to Israel only because it is a Jewish state and not because of any of its policies or actions?

No! They object to a racist Israeli regime that has claimed a "for Jews only" state in a land where non-Jewish Arabs also used to, and still live! See above.

 

[Shogun]

Then you agree with me that they prefer to remain stateless rather than to accept a peaceful two state solution with the Jewish state of Israel.

Yes it is their fault that the British decided to create a racist regime on their land.

It is their fault that this regime was created through ethnic cleansing.

And yes that they preferred to stay stateless, and sometimes even die, for a just cause! (But I am sure that the reason you'd give for that is that they are irrational death loving masochists)

Damn all those people who actually made sacrifices in order for justice to prevail! Justice is so overrated anyway! Right?

Long live the righteous racist Israeli regime...

Nothing but propaganda slogans. Try dealing with the facts.

First off, the UN created Israel after the British declined to.

How could there be ethnic cleansing when the Arabs who left Israel chose to leave and then declined to petition the state to return?

How can Israel be racist when Israeli Arabs have the same rights under the law as Israeli Jews do? In this context, would the Arabs have been as outraged if the land had been taken over by an Arab tyrant such as Saddam? Isn't it true that the Arabs object to Israel only because it is a Jewish state and not because of any of its policies or actions? Doesn't that make the Palestinian cause nothing more than a violent and bloody expression of racist hatred?

Getting back to the subject of whose land it is, when you call it "their land" do you mean it is their's in the sense of private property rights or as a political entity? If you mean private property rights, Israeli law recognizes the validity of Ottoman and British deeds, so those rights are as safe and secure under Israel law as they would be under the laws of any other country. If you mean as a political entity, the land was never "their's" although who they were changed often over the centuries and even after the Jews began returning to Israel in the late 19th century.

HA! there is so much irony in your first sentence I almost don't know where to start.

First, Israeli zionists can be just as racsit as any other human. I don't care what a fucking burning bush myth says.

second, you know damn well that israeli muslims dont have the same consideration as israeli jews. From the JEWISH application of the law of return to the JEWISH oath that non jews are about to have to recite in order to retain their residency which states that israel is JEWISH you are not only full of shit but are a fucking laugh riot this side of your first sentence. propaganda slogans, indeed, zionist.

Why don't you stupid fucking racist jews stop holding the JEWISH ISRAEL mandade over arab heads and focus on the pluralistic nature of the histories of both JEWS AND NON JEWS? WHY? Because you are a bunch of racist motherfuckers hiding behind the holocaust to perpetuate your hatred of anything non jewish. ESPECIALLY when it comes to claiming that land for yourselves like a fucking dog pissing out his perimeter. If you had the fucking backbone to share the land you'd see pali violence end just as quickly as AMERICAN clahses during the civil rights era.. But, we all know that you are much to racist to budge on the purity of the kosher chosen people, don't we.

and yes, jew, their history is not diminished because all you can see is a burning fucking bush. We all know it was there land before israel was CARVED from someone elses land like a modern fucking canaan. You can run to your little jewish virtual library for some modified kosher hisotry but you realy are no better than white south afrikaners.

 

[Shogun]

Warning: Totally Fucking off topic:

You know, Shogun's post make me both shudder (circa 30%) and laugh my ass off (70% - definitely a vast majority)at different times and different statements... He does have some great points, which he unfortunately overshadows with the constant name-calling... However, encountering a delusional bonehead like DavidS - it's understandable.

I love Shogun's expressions such as 'pet state', 'stone age real estate', and 'burning bush mythology' .... totally love it. And I've laughed my ass off at his fat jokes too... yeah, a guilty pleasure of mine. But that is the main reason why I come to USMB - to entertain myself and Shogun provides some top notch entertainment

Sorry, Shogun... I know it's impolite to talk behind one's back... but I'm sure you couldn't care less... Carry on... I'll just grab some popcorn. Just so you know, I'm not making fun of you, I really do enjoy most of your posts... srsly. Thanks.

Keep it up guys!

It's the Shogun Show with your host... The SHOGUUUUUUN OF USMB!

 

[toomuchtime_]

Nothing but propaganda slogans. Try dealing with the facts.

As if repeating the Palestinians don't want a state nor peace is not a slogan!

First off, the UN created Israel after the British declined to.

No the UN actually put a "partition plan" which has not implemented till now! The creation of the Israeli regime was a de facto creation, after a British promise to the zionist movement!



Chose to leave????????????????

In "1948 and After" Benny Morris examines the first phase of the exodus and produces a detailed analysis of a source that he considers basically reliable: a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948". This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. "At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis.

In the opening pages of "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem", Benny Morris offers the outlines of an overall answer: using a map that shows the 369 Arab towns and villages in Israel (within its 1949 borders), he lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population (9). In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were EXPELLED by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or in fear of an enemy attack, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin, when the news of the killings swept the country like wildfire.

How can Israel be racist when Israeli Arabs have the same rights under the law as Israeli Jews do?

Do they now?

At least twenty Israeli laws discriminate against Arab Christian and Muslim Israelis either by excluding them while providing specific rights to the Jewish population, according different rights to different sectors of the population, or by abridging the rights of the Arab Israelis:

Such discriminatory laws touch on all aspects of life, including laws restricting immigration and citizenship, several legislations expropriating land and restricting land use and ownership, quasi-governmental status given to solely Jewish bodies such as the Jewish Agency and the World Zionist Organization, laws designating Jewish symbols and national holidays (while ignoring Arab holidays and religious dates), as well as laws mandating separate and unequal educational and cultural systems.

Isn't it true that the Arabs object to Israel only because it is a Jewish state and not because of any of its policies or actions?

No! They object to a racist Israeli regime that has claimed a "for Jews only" state in a land where non-Jewish Arabs also used to, and still live! See above.

First off, stating that the Palestinians would rather remain stateless than live in peace with the Jewish state of Israel is the gist of your first post, and it comes up repeatedly only because you seem to find your own post distasteful now.

Although the British did promise to create a homeland for the Jews in 1917 and did have that promise written into the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, when the time came to take action on that promise, the British refused to do it. This was the state of things when WWII broke out and the issue was put on hold by everyone.

After the war, the UN took up the protectorate as a part of the unfinished business of the League of Nations, and shortly afterwards, the British notified the UN it was going to turn responsibility for the Mandate back to the UN. Because it was seen as an internal matter of the UN rather than as a matter between member states, the responsibility for the protectorate fell under the jurisdiction on the General Assembly rather than the Security Council. The GA offered independence to a proposed Arab state and a proposed Jewish state on condition that each create certain institutions of government and accept certain obligations towards the other by August 1, 1948, at which time the Mandatory authority of the UN would end. The Jews abided by the conditions set forth in the resolution, but the Arabs refused to; hence an independent Jewish state was recognized by the UN and an Arab state was not. Since the resolution terminated UN authority over the area, on August 1, 1948, all of its provisions were implemented by that date.

Morris had two chief conclusions. First, that there was no expulsion policy or order by the Israeli government to be applied to Arabs, and second, that the single explanation long put forward by historians that nearly all the Arabs left because of orders or urgings from Arab leaders cannot be adequately documented. To determine the extent of Israel's responsibility for the Arabs' decision to leave, Morris compared the dates on which the Haganah or Israeli paramilitaries were engaged in active combat in or near a particular area and when the Arabs in that area decided to leave. Not surprisingly Morris found that about 70% of the Arabs decided to leave when combat between Israeli military forces and Arab military forces was in or near their villages, however Morris was unable to determine in most cases if those fleeing were defeated Arab combatants fleeing the field of battle with their families and supporters or if they were non combatants who were caught in the cross fire or were afraid they might be.

However, even your long quote from a Palestinian propaganda site (The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined By the French newspaper Le Monde) - allegedly translated from a French newspaper article about revisionist history - acknowledges that in only a tiny percentage of cases, 3%, did the Arabs leave because of orders from local Israeli commanders or because of "psychological warfare" tactics employed by Israeli forces, and even in these cases Morris was unable to determine if those who were forced or urged out were defeated Arab combatants who took their families and supporters with them or non combatants who were forced or urged to leave by local Israeli commanders exercising an excess of caution.

Again, Arab and Jewish Israelis have equal rights under Israeli laws. It is true that from time to time discriminatory laws have been passed, but they are routinely struck down by the High Court. There are no laws mandating separate educational systems, but Israeli law does delegate authority Jewish religious institutions for dealing with marriage and divorce and such matters among Jews, and to Muslim religious institutions for dealing with such matters among Muslims, etc., but it also allows civil alternatives to those who prefer them. Perhaps that's what you mean by "cultural systems".

Within the green line, Israeli law is explicit: there can be no discrimination concerning land use based on race, ethnicity, etc. and Israeli courts have vigorously enforced these laws.

In the US, Christian holy days become de facto and sometimes legal holidays, such as Sundays and Christmas, but Jewish and Muslim holy days rarely do because the US is overwhelmingly Christian. Israel is 80% Jewish, so just as the character of the US is Christian because most of its population is Christian, the character of Israel is Jewish because most of its population is Jewish. I imagine Israeli Muslims must feel the same way about this as US Muslims and Jews do.

Israel does as near a perfect job of providing equal rights and protections under the law to all of its citizens as any other country does and a much better job of it than any of the countries critical of it.

Calling Israel a racist state or a "Jews only" state has no basis in fact or logic, as your current post makes clear, and this post does no more than the others to refute the point your first post makes that the Palestinians choose to remain stateless rather than to live in peace with the Jewish state of Israel.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Even if it is one country, I think everyone will be better off when we split the cake. Each side gets a piece and eats it and shuts the fuck up.

 

[Shogun]

yea dude! NEAR PERFECT enough to apply the Law of Return to JEWS for the sake of demographic control, eh?

Let's see some palis start settling JEWISH neighborhoods and see how that "non-racist" nation reacts.


that is, AFTER we get all those Oaths signed making sure everyone knows that it is a JEWISH state.

 

[Zein El Nour]

Again, Arab and Jewish Israelis have equal rights under Israeli laws. It is true that from time to time discriminatory laws have been passed, but they are routinely struck down by the High Court. There are no laws mandating separate educational systems, but Israeli law does delegate authority Jewish religious institutions for dealing with marriage and divorce and such matters among Jews, and to Muslim religious institutions for dealing with such matters among Muslims, etc., but it also allows civil alternatives to those who prefer them. Perhaps that's what you mean by "cultural systems".

Within the green line, Israeli law is explicit: there can be no discrimination concerning land use based on race, ethnicity, etc. and Israeli courts have vigorously enforced these laws.

In the US, Christian holy days become de facto and sometimes legal holidays, such as Sundays and Christmas, but Jewish and Muslim holy days rarely do because the US is overwhelmingly Christian. Israel is 80% Jewish, so just as the character of the US is Christian because most of its population is Christian, the character of Israel is Jewish because most of its population is Jewish. I imagine Israeli Muslims must feel the same way about this as US Muslims and Jews do.

Israel does as near a perfect job of providing equal rights and protections under the law to all of its citizens as any other country does and a much better job of it than any of the countries critical of it.

Calling Israel a racist state or a "Jews only" state has no basis in fact or logic, as your current post makes clear, and this post does no more than the others to refute the point your first post makes that the Palestinians choose to remain stateless rather than to live in peace with the Jewish state of Israel.

From the website: Arab HRA

Fact Sheets

In 1992 the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom was passed in Israel (2) which subsequently authorised courts to overturn Knesset laws that were contrary to the right to dignity, life, freedom, privacy, property and the right to leave and enter the country.
Specifically, however, it did not include the right to equality. Further, section 1A of the law states that it aims to anchor "the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state." Given the lack of an explicit law that constitutionally protects equality for all citizens, this emphasis on the Jewishness of the State again compromised the equal rights protection for the Palestinian Arab minority.
Political Participation
Palestinian Arabs rights to run for elections to the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, are also limited by their acceptance of the notion of the Jewish state.

These limits are expressed in the Law of Political Parties (1992) and, in particular, the amendment of section 7A(1) of the Basic Law: The Knesset which prevents candidates from participating in the elections if their platform suggests the "denial of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people." Under this section a party platform that challenges the Jewish character of the state, that for example calls for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens, can be disqualified, as lists have been in the past.(4) The law demands that Palestinian Arab citizens may not challenge the state's Zionist identity.
Direct Discrimination
There are two main examples of laws that discriminate against Palestinian Arabs by directly distinguishing between Jews and non-Jews:
* Citizenship Rights & the Law of Return: National identity is the main factor in deciding the acquisition of citizenship in Israel. The Law of Return grantsevery Jew the right to immigrate to Israel. The Nationality Law automatically grants citizenship to all Jews who have done so, and also to their spouses, children,s grandchildren, and all their spouses. This privilege is for Jews only. Palestinian Arabs can only get citizenship by birth, residence (after meetinga cumulative list of conditions) or naturalisation.
* Special Status of Jewish Organisations: As a result of the World Zionist Organisation- Jewish Agency Law, the Jewish National Fund, Jewish Agency,and World Zionist Organisation have special constitutional status in Israel and are known as quasi-governmental bodies. They are Jewish organisationswhich explicitly aim to benefit Jews only, but have authority for certain governmental functions, including developing the land and housing projects and settlements. Their activities are co-ordinated with the government and are given tax benefits, and they have a lot of influence on decision-making boards (particularly in agriculture and land use).
The Palestinian Arab minority is excluded entirely from these functions as either beneficiaries or participants. Further no government organisations perform the same functions for non-Jews. Consequently, Palestinian Arab needs are systematically disregarded.
Indirect Discrimination
More widespread is the use of "non-discriminatory" criteria in statutes that lead to differences in the treatment of Jews and the Palestinian Arab minority:
* Military Service: Many government preferences and benefits in Israel are conditioned on performing military service. Whilst military service is technicallycompulsory for all citizens, by discretion the vast majority (90%) of Palestinian Arabs are not required to serve; whereas the majority of Jews do. As a consequence, they do not receive the wide range of benefits, including larger mortgages, partial exemptions from course fees, and preferences for public employment and housing. The discriminatory factor is that in many cases the link between the benefit offered and the requirment for military service is tenuous, often as in employment opportunities, and that government offices provide benefits beyond what is legislated. The most celebrated example of this was the level of state child benefits, which until 1997 were conditioned on military service, rather than more obvious socio-economic factors. The impression that this is a mechanism for privileging Jews is borne out by the fact that Jewish Yeshiva students, who like Arab citizens do not serve, are granted the benefits anyway, a policy which has been upheld by the courts.(6)
* Place of Living: The government categorises the country into different zones and awards different statuses and benefits to different towns. For instance, it denotes certain areas national development areas, which then makes them eligible to receive benefits including special tax incentives for industry, educational programmes, and housing incentives. These areas are supposed to be determined according to socio-economic criteria. Yet the zones are drawn to include a disproportionate number of Jewish localities rather than Palestinian Arab ones. For example, in the 1998 classification, outof the 429 localities accorded Development Area A status, only 4 were Arab, despite the fact that Arab towns and villages are consistently at the bottom of the socio-economic scale. The zoning was used to exclude the vast majority of the Palestinian Arab minority from these benefits.
Institutional Discrimination
The Palestinian Arab minority in Israel is discriminated against by the aspects of the legal system which allow the government to adopt discriminatory policies, or the discretionary power that can be used by officials to maintain a systematic pattern of preferences.
The Palestinian Arab minority in Israel is discriminated against by the aspects of the legal system which allow the government to adopt discriminatory policies, or the discretionary power that can be used by officials to maintain a systematic pattern of preferences.
Budgets & Resource Allocation: The Budget Law, which governs state funds, does not specify what proportion should be earmarked for minorities; the decision lies with officials’ discretion. Due to their lack of representation in government offices, Palestinian Arabs receive substantially less funding for e.g. local government budgets (usually 50% less), and have less resources allocated for welfare budgets, school facilities or other education programmes.
Often this discrepancy is justified by the government running projects in cooperation with the Jewish Agency, thus necessitating only Jewish beneficiaries.(7)
Uneven Implementation of the Law: There are three ways in which the implementation of the law adversely affects the Palestinian Arab minority:
1) Positive statutes that the State is expected to enforce or services that the State is required to provide can simply not be implemented in Palestinian Arab communities, such as the Compulsory Education Law, and the provision of truant officers or counsellors, despite the fact that Arab students form 75% of those who drop out of school throughout the whole country.
2) Laws that apply to both Jews and Arabs can be selectively or predominantly implemented on Palestinian Arabs, such as land confiscation laws or house demolitions.
3) Laws can be implemented with different criteria for Jews and Arabs, such as criteria for family assistance in education programmes or production quotas for agricultural production. Often differences in quotas are maintained due to a lack of Arab representation in decision- making authorities.
The judicial review of this institutional discrimination is limited. To date, there is not one court case where the Supreme Court has accepted a case of discrimination against the Palestinian Arab minority and ruled to protect its rights. It usually accepts the claim of the State that its policies serve national priorities and thus are not discriminatory, or that different treatment between Jews and Arabs is legitimate, as they are different groups.(8) Even when historical discrimination is admitted, the court will not rule to close the gaps, arguing that responsibility lies with the decision-making of the executive.(9)

1. For a similar schematic analysis see Kretzmer, The Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel (Westview Press, 1990) p. 48
2. In 1992 the Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation was similarly passed.
3. Forward to The Arabs in Israel, cited in Adalah, Legal Violations of Arab Minority Rights in Israel (Adalah, 1998) p. 9
4. For example, El-Ard v. District Commissioner, 18 PD II 340 & Sabri Jiryis v. District Commissioner, 18 PD IV 673, Yerdor v. Central Elections Committee, 19 PD III 365, Neiman v. Chairman of the Central Elections Committee, 39 PD II 233. It is true that since this ammendment came into effectno lists have been disqualified under section 7A(1), however the legal power still remains there to do so.
5. Kretzmer pp. 42-43
6. For example, Wattad v. Minister of Finance, 38 PD III 113
7. For example, the Shahar education programmes offered to weak and disadvantaged students, in which a third of Jewish students have participated,were not until 1998 offered in any Arab communities.
8. For example, Wattad, or Bourkan v. Minister of Finance 32 PD II 800, Agbariah v. Minister of Education 45 PD 222
9. For example, The Local Council of Daliyat El-Carmel et al v. Prime Minister (unpublished), cited in Adalah p. 25.

 

[editec]

The solution to this issue cannot be found in history.

All that can do for us is show us that people were lied to and cheated by the British government.

The problem is that real live people, both Isreali and Palestinian, have what appears to me to both have legitimate claim to the same lands NOW.

Until BOTH people are ready to find a peaceful means to resolve this issue (and issue which I think both are victims of and both are in part responsible for, too) there will be no peace in Palestine or Israel.

 

[Truthmatters]

File:Medieval Arab Palestine.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[editec]

The argument often made that Palestine never existed is, of course, preposterous.

The argument, that Palestine was never an idependent nation, has merit.

But to assume therefore that the people living on that land are therefore, non-persons without rights, is nothing but racist nonsense.