Spain Invokes Article 155 and imposes Direct Rule on Catalonia

[Lucy Hamilton]

Carles Puigdemont is not some Far Leftist Revolutionary, his party PDeCAT are Centre Right as was the CDC the party that preceded it.

I totally understand that. But as Lenin himself said, all people have a right to freedom and self-determination. I don't care what political leaning revolutionaries come from. Facism must be fought on all fronts.

Forget Lenin, it's an International Law.

According to UN Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples:
All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Exactly Stratford, according to the Commie UN itself the right to Self-Determination is a Human Right.

This situation where the EU Commission is siding with Madrid and their outrageous actions is all about protecting the EU Project and nothing else, I notice that little NATO bitch faggot Jens Stoltenberg has just issued support for Madrid now, what is NATO going to threaten to bomb Catalonia or something? WTF does it have to do with NATO, I hate that bitch faggot Jens Stoltenberg regardless, he's probably a paedophile.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

This thread isn't about Marxism so I won't push the subject, but I will leave it at me respectfully disagreeing.

Okay I can agree to disagree also

 

[Marxist_Trash]

Okay I can agree to disagree also

The magic of freedom of speech = P. I'll post my own take on the subject elsewhere at some point.

~~~

Also the members of NATO have a vested economic interest in seeing the EU survive, probably why he issued such a statement...having it collapse would be rather bad for most corporations over here. Heck, a bunch of American businesses poured money into trying to keep Brexit from occurring.

 

[rightwinger]

We have a flag we are not using

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Okay I can agree to disagree also

The magic of freedom of speech = P. I'll post my own take on the subject elsewhere at some point.

~~~

Also the members of NATO have a vested economic interest in seeing the EU survive, probably why he issued such a statement...having it collapse would be rather bad for most corporations over here. Heck, a bunch of American businesses poured money into trying to keep Brexit from occurring.

This is why we reject Corporatism and what Dwight Eisenhower called The Military Industrial Complex.

For 24 hours I have changed my sig line to show my support for our European brothers and sisters in Catalonia.

 

[Marxist_Trash]

I think I'll be doing the same. This is a pivotal conflict that will define world politics imo...it needs to be won not just for Catalonia but for all of us.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I think I'll be doing the same. This is a pivotal conflict that will define world politics imo...it needs to be won not just for Catalonia but for all of us.

Spain's PM just sacked the entire Catalan government

 

[Stratford57]

Carles Puigdemont is not some Far Leftist Revolutionary, his party PDeCAT are Centre Right as was the CDC the party that preceded it.

I totally understand that. But as Lenin himself said, all people have a right to freedom and self-determination. I don't care what political leaning revolutionaries come from. Facism must be fought on all fronts.

Forget Lenin, it's an International Law.

According to UN Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples:
All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Exactly Stratford, according to the Commie UN itself the right to Self-Determination is a Human Right.

This situation where the EU Commission is siding with Madrid and their outrageous actions is all about protecting the EU Project and nothing else, I notice that little NATO bitch faggot Jens Stoltenberg has just issued support for Madrid now, what is NATO going to threaten to bomb Catalonia or something? WTF does it have to do with NATO, I hate that bitch faggot Jens Stoltenberg regardless, he's probably a paedophile.

Not too many people in the world know and EU "leaders" remained silent when Ukrainian Nazi illegal post-coup government started all-out war against Donbass and shelled their own countrymen civilians with Grads, Tochka-U and phosphor bombs. I think, it's hard to guess what may happen next in Catalonia unless their governments surrenders to Madrid.

Just look how Ukrainian aircraft was bombing Lughansk ( SE Ukraine) and bombs torn 6 women in pieces (the one who's still talking on the video died in a few minutes after that). And there are tons of videos like that on the Internet. And it's already been three and a half years and nobody cares except for Russia.

 

[rightwinger]

I agree with Spain

You belong to a country, you do not just take your ball and go home. Catalonia is very wealthy, they are telling their countrymen......We got ours, screw the rest of you

 

[Marxist_Trash]

Spain is preparing to impose martial law on their fellow "countrymen." I really don't see how Catalans that survived getting bruised and beaten by police officers to make it to ballot boxes just to say "we want our own nation" are the bad guys here.

 

[miketx]

i hope they got guns because we got enough "refugees" over here.

 

[SavannahMann]

We have seen this play out before. Sometimes the situation is resolved with reconciliation, sometimes forced as in the inaptly named American Civil War. Sometimes, it is peaceful reconciliation. Sometimes it is a severing of political ties. It isn’t new, and how it plays out is going to depend on a lot of factors.

First, how determined are the people for independence. If it is a passing fad, then it will settle in a year or two. I don’t think it is. Catalan has been independently minded for centuries. Sometimes stronger opinions, sometimes more reserved, but always there.

Second, how much are the people willing to endure? The people of Northern Ireland endured one of the longest such struggles. That one has been settled in a manner of speaking. The only thing standing in the way of their true independence is a vote. The British Government finally allowed that the people of Northern Ireland could sever their association with the United Kingdom if a majority of the voters said so. The Rebels won.

They haven’t voted for it yet, but that isn’t the point. They won the right to declare independence through the democratic process.

If you are wondering what I think, then I’ll tell you this. I believe people have the right to affect political change, including independence. That means I support the right of the people in Brexit. Spain may be standing firm now, but if Catalan goes like Northern Ireland, in thirty years they’ll be looking for a way out.

 

[SavannahMann]

Russia cares about the Ukraine not for humanitarian reasons, but because they have their main Naval Base in Crimea.

 

[SavannahMann]

I agree with Spain

You belong to a country, you do not just take your ball and go home. Catalonia is very wealthy, they are telling their countrymen......We got ours, screw the rest of you

Did you feel the same way when the Soviet Union fell apart and many areas declared independence? The United States supported those areas under Article 1 Section 2 of the UN Charter. That is the part that covers the whole right to self determination. You might have heard about it at some point.

 

[xyz]

I think they only reason they didn't mind the Scottish referendum was it didn't succeed.

No, the United Kingdom is just that, the different countries making up the kingdom have the right to secede in law.

I don't think the situation is the same in those two cases, or with the Balkans, Ukraine, whatever.

 

[rightwinger]

I agree with Spain

You belong to a country, you do not just take your ball and go home. Catalonia is very wealthy, they are telling their countrymen......We got ours, screw the rest of you

Did you feel the same way when the Soviet Union fell apart and many areas declared independence? The United States supported those areas under Article 1 Section 2 of the UN Charter. That is the part that covers the whole right to self determination. You might have heard about it at some point.

Not at all
The Soviet Empire was crumpling

Spain can and will be salvaged

 

[Marxist_Trash]

Spain can and will be salvaged

Spain is just another crony of the bourgeoisie-backed European Union, and their fascistic tactics have been made quite clear in how they are dealing with this attempted secession, which was voted for directly by Catalans. Its participation rate may have been at around 40%, but considering the police were doing their utmost to keep people from the ballot boxes, this statistic means very little to me, and discredits whatever authority the Spanish government has over Catalonia.

All I'd like to ask is why you value the unity of Spain so much, to be quite honest.

 

[waltky]

Ousted Catalan President Carles Puigdemont flees to Belgium...

For Some Catalan Officials, Coming To Work This Monday Was An Act Of Defiance
October 30, 2017 - On Monday morning, Catalan officials showed up at their offices — and, in some cases, were escorted out by police just minutes later.

The Spanish government instituted direct rule over the formerly semi-autonomous region of Catalonia on Friday, which had declared independence from Spain. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy dissolved the regional government immediately after assuming direct-rule authority. That means Catalan officials have essentially been fired — and prominent secessionist leaders have also been charged with crimes, including sedition. Josep Rull, a regional minister, tweeted a photo of himself at work despite Spain's dissolution of his government. "In the office," he wrote, "exercising the responsibilities entrusted in us by the people of Catalonia."

Lucia Benavides reports for NPR from Barcelona: "The Spanish government has given Catalan officials a few hours to grab their things and leave their posts. ... [Rajoy] said there would be snap elections on Dec. 21. In the meantime, central government ministries will take over the Catalan administration. ... "The Catalan president continues to declare himself president and has called for a 'democratic opposition' to the Spanish government's takeover of the region. This morning, Catalan public officials were greeted by clapping from pro-independence supporters waiting outside government buildings." The Catalan president, Carles Puigdemont, is among those facing charges. An anonymous Spanish official told The Associated Press that Puigdemont has left the country and traveled to Brussels.

Some people unfold a Spanish flag as another man waves a Catalan pro-independence flag in front of the Catalan government headquarters in Barcelona on Monday. Spain enters uncharted and potentially perilous territory today as Madrid moves to take over the running of Catalonia, in response to the region's parliament unilaterally declaring independence.​

Pro-independence parties say they plan to participate in the Dec. 21 election, Reuters reports, a "tacit admission" that the regional parliament has in fact been dissolved. The upheaval comes nearly a month after Catalonia, a prosperous region of Spain with its own history, language and culture, held a referendum on independence on Oct. 1. Spain vehemently objected to the vote and attempted to block it, but secessionist leaders defied the police and held the vote anyway. The result was overwhelmingly in favor of independence, but Catalonia itself is more divided than the vote reflects; many pro-unity voters did not participate in the referendum. "On Sunday, about 300,000 pro-Spain supporters filled the capital city's streets — it was one of biggest shows of force by the so-called silent majority," Benavides reports. "Two people were allegedly injured before and after the protests as ultra-right groups joined the demonstration."

Now, with two competing governments both claiming to be the democratically elected leadership of Catalonia, confusion is pervasive, as the AP reports: "As dozens of journalists, curious onlookers and bemused tourists gathered in the square outside the Gothic government palace in central Barcelona, residents expressed confusion about who was actually in charge of Catalonia. " 'I don't know — the Catalan government says they are in charge, but the Spanish government says they are,' said Cristina Guillen, an employee in a nearby bag shop. 'So I have no idea, really. " 'What I really think is that nobody is in charge right now,' she said." But despite the uncertainty, for everyday citizens "work resumed normally in Catalonia and calm reigned on the streets," Reuters reported on Monday.

For Some Catalan Officials, Coming To Work This Monday Was An Act Of Defiance

See also:

Ex-Catalan president takes refuge in Belgium under threat of charges
Oct. 30, 2017 -- Ousted Catalan President Carles Puigdemont fled to Belgium Monday after Spain's top prosecutor said charges were coming against he and other pro-independence leaders who were removed from the semi-autonomous region.

Spanish Attorney General José Manuel Maza said Puigdemont and other top officials should be prosecuted for rebellion for leading efforts to secede from Spain -- and for misuse of funds. Although Maza didn't call for the former leaders' immediate arrest, he did ask them to appear in court in Madrid in the coming days. Puigdemont, however traveled to Brussels Monday -- a day after Belgian Secretary of State Theo Francken offered him refuge. Although the offer was later denied by Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel, Puigdemont left Spain with five of his former ministers.

Maza's request will be brought to a judge for consideration and a possible trial could lead to a long jail sentence if the former leaders are convicted. The prosecutor's remarks came just three days after Catalonia lawmakers declared independence from Spain by a 70-10 vote, prompting the government in Madrid to invoke Article 155 and take over direct rule of the region, which includes Barcelona.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy fired Puigdemont and his cabinet hours later after the Spanish Senate voted to give him powers under Article 155. The article, known as the "nuclear option," gives Madrid power to remove all members of Catalonia's government and hold snap elections to replace parliament members. Madrid has stood by its claim that the Oct. 1 referendum vote -- in which 90 percent of Catalan residents favored independence from Spain -- was illegal.

Ex-Catalan president takes refuge in Belgium under threat of charges

 

[Stratford57]

Spain is preparing to impose martial law on their fellow "countrymen." I really don't see how Catalans that survived getting bruised and beaten by police officers to make it to ballot boxes just to say "we want our own nation" are the bad guys here.

And now Madrid's argument is: less than a half of Catalonia voters have voted for independence. But Madrid has done its best to scare the people from coming and voting. Only the most brave could go through Madrid's police in their streets and get to voting booths.

 

[DarkFury]

EU didn't mind Scottish independence referendum, and Brexit referendum.

Scottish independence referendum, 2014 - Wikipedia

Why Catalonia independence referendum is any different? EU just has mired in its doubled standards.

I myself predicted that with Brexit and a few others a new EU would form with Russia as it's main builder and protector. The Western EU as a whole is corrupt. The idea of the Western EU was a failure from the start as rights were stripped almost immediately from member states. This new Confederacy of states will prove out to be more personal rights based AND far more security minded.

The French the Germans and the British people are dying because of globalists thinking and a states rights Union is the answer. If the Russians can supply that then they can rewrite their futures both in economics and trade. I think with Russian help this new EU will be stronger, safer and more free then the current EU.