Socialism at work

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ozzmdj, Jul 16, 2009.

  1. ozzmdj
    Offline

    ozzmdj Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    Thanks Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Wolf Creek, Missouri
    Ratings:
    +69
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  2. ozzmdj
    Offline

    ozzmdj Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    Thanks Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Wolf Creek, Missouri
    Ratings:
    +69
  3. sealybobo
    Offline

    sealybobo Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    50,761
    Thanks Received:
    3,200
    Trophy Points:
    1,845
    Location:
    Michigan
    Ratings:
    +10,223

    America is great when righties stop playing politics. Remember we all got seriously mad at Bush for trying to sell our ports to Dubai, a muslim country, not too long after 9-11? I mean seriously, if that didn't prove he didn't give a shit about keeping us safe from another terrorist attack, nothing would.

    Anyways, rarely I am proud of our right wing Americans. They actually complained to Bush about something he was doing. Until then, they bent over and made excuses for every bone headed thing he did.

    So anyways, we need to join together and end this beurocracy. We need to demand it. My relative works for Wayne County Mental Health. Just one beurocracy in one country in one state. Imagine how much employment we are talking about if you add up all the government agencies across the country. Imagine how many jobs are created by government. Now some of it is good, but damn a lot of it is waste.

    Anyways, my relative is one secretary of HUNDREDS of secretaries who work for whoever heads the mental health agency for Wayne County, which included Detroit. My point is, if you cut half the staff, there is no doubt in my mind the agencies would operate just fine. Sure they would all have to work, but it wouldn't be the big costly beurocracy that we have now. So why don't we DEMAND that they cut all this shit out?

    Because of all the jobs that would be lost? These aren't free market/capitalism jobs though! These are tax payer funded.

    Then think about all the Lockhead Martin, Airbus, Boeing jobs where they actually do make products but only products that government buys, like planes and tanks.


    Holy fuck that's a lot of money saved and also a lot of jobs lost if we cut out half the waste.

    So I would like to help, but you are probably just teabagging the Democrats. Prove you are being sincere for once and maybe we will join your cause.
     
  4. 007
    Offline

    007 Charter Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    38,589
    Thanks Received:
    7,921
    Trophy Points:
    1,130
    Ratings:
    +12,210
  5. ozzmdj
    Offline

    ozzmdj Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    Thanks Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Wolf Creek, Missouri
    Ratings:
    +69
  6. ozzmdj
    Offline

    ozzmdj Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    Thanks Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Wolf Creek, Missouri
    Ratings:
    +69
  7. Arawyn
    Offline

    Arawyn Bringer of Light

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Messages:
    246
    Thanks Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    WA
    Ratings:
    +46
    And the government it to be trusted to run the entire nation's healthcare? Their screwups w/Medicare and Medicaid are a huge part of the current high cost of healthcare.
     
  8. cbi0090
    Offline

    cbi0090 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2008
    Messages:
    436
    Thanks Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +46
    I hate to break it to you but not giving them the contract to "manage" our ports (not own) was a huge mistake. Those countries are not going to have oil forever and a few are rightly thinking that they should be diversifying into industry and services while they can before that happens. The management firm from Dubai would have hired local people to provide the labor and it would have been a way for them to return some of the money we give them and establish a different kind of economic trade between us, rather than one based solely on oil which is just a one was street.
    Not only that, they went through the processes necessary to become an international vendor in the U.S. to bid on projects of that magnitude. A very expensive and time consuming process, only to win a project fair and square, then have it pulled out from them by a bunch of media happy politicians! What does that say about America (home of free market enterprise and business fairness) to the rest of the world? Sounds like something Chavez would do. It was a sorry episode that we should all be ashamed of.
     
  9. Old Rocks
    Online

    Old Rocks Diamond Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    46,595
    Thanks Received:
    5,426
    Trophy Points:
    1,840
    Location:
    Portland, Ore.
    Ratings:
    +10,398
    What we have now is bunch of corperations running our Health Care System. And we pay double or more per capita for a system that delivers a lot less. About 50 million Americans with no coverage at all. And our average lifespan is down there with third world nations, same for infant mortality. Even Costa Rica and Cuba do better than we do in these areas.

    FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

    Each has a health care system that delivers health care for everyone -- but with remarkable differences.
    Related Readings
    Graphs: U.S. Health Stats Compared to Other Countries
    Health Care Systems -- The Four Basic Models
    United Kingdom
    An interview with an expert on the UK's system +Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

    Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

    Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

    What is it? The British system is "socialized medicine" because the government both provides and pays for health care. Britons pay taxes for health care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

    How does it work? Because the system is funded through taxes, administrative costs are low; there are no bills to collect or claims to review. Patients have a "medical home" in their GP, who also serves as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system; patients must see their GP before going to a specialist. GPs, who are paid extra for keeping their patients healthy, are instrumental in preventive care, an area in which Britain is a world leader.

    What are the concerns? The stereotype of socialized medicine -- long waits and limited choice -- still has some truth. In response, the British government has instituted reforms to help make care more competitive and give patients more choice. Hospitals now compete for NHS funds distributed by local Primary Care Trusts, and starting in April 2008 patients are able to choose where they want to be treated for many procedures.

    Japan

    An interview with an expert on Japan's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

    Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

    Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

    What is it? Japan uses a "social insurance" system in which all citizens are required to have health insurance, either through their work or purchased from a nonprofit, community-based plan. Those who can't afford the premiums receive public assistance. Most health insurance is private; doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector.

    How does it work? Japan boasts some of the best health statistics in the world, no doubt due in part to the Japanese diet and lifestyle. Unlike the U.K., there are no gatekeepers; the Japanese can go to any specialist when and as often as they like. Every two years the Ministry of Health negotiates with physicians to set the price for every procedure. This helps keeps costs down.

    What are the concerns? In fact, Japan has been so successful at keeping costs down that Japan now spends too little on health care; half of the hospitals in Japan are operating in the red. Having no gatekeepers means there's no check on how often the Japanese use health care, and patients may lack a medical home.

    Germany

    An interview with an expert on Germany's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

    Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients' income.

    Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

    What is it? Germany, like Japan, uses a social insurance model. In fact, Germany is the birthplace of social insurance, which dates back to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. But unlike the Japanese, who get insurance from work or are assigned to a community fund, Germans are free to buy their insurance from one of more than 200 private, nonprofit "sickness funds." As in Japan, the poor receive public assistance to pay their premiums.

    How does it work? Sickness funds are nonprofit and cannot deny coverage based on preexisting conditions; they compete with each other for members, and fund managers are paid based on the size of their enrollments. Like Japan, Germany is a single-payment system, but instead of the government negotiating the prices, the sickness funds bargain with doctors as a group. Germans can go straight to a specialist without first seeing a gatekeeper doctor, but they may pay a higher co-pay if they do.

    What are the concerns? The single-payment system leaves some German doctors feeling underpaid. A family doctor in Germany makes about two-thirds as much as he or she would in America. (Then again, German doctors pay much less for malpractice insurance, and many attend medical school for free.) Germany also lets the richest 10 percent opt out of the sickness funds in favor of U.S.-style for-profit insurance. These patients are generally seen more quickly by doctors, because the for-profit insurers pay doctors more than the sickness funds.

    Taiwan

    An interview with an expert on Taiwan's system +Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

    Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.

    Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

    What is it? Taiwan adopted a "National Health Insurance" model in 1995 after studying other countries' systems. Like Japan and Germany, all citizens must have insurance, but there is only one, government-run insurer. Working people pay premiums split with their employers; others pay flat rates with government help; and some groups, like the poor and veterans, are fully subsidized. The resulting system is similar to Canada's -- and the U.S. Medicare program.

    How does it work? Taiwan's new health system extended insurance to the 40 percent of the population that lacked it while actually decreasing the growth of health care spending. The Taiwanese can see any doctor without a referral. Every citizen has a smart card, which is used to store his or her medical history and bill the national insurer. The system also helps public health officials monitor standards and effect policy changes nationwide. Thanks to this use of technology and the country's single insurer, Taiwan's health care system has the lowest administrative costs in the world.

    What are the concerns? Like Japan, Taiwan's system is not taking in enough money to cover the medical care it provides. The problem is compounded by politics, because it is up to Taiwan's parliament to approve an increase in insurance premiums, which it has only done once since the program was enacted.

    Switzerland

    An interview with an expert on Switzerland's system +Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

    Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

    Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

    What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

    How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

    What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.
     
  10. jreeves
    Offline

    jreeves Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,588
    Thanks Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +315
    You guys use lies to propagate the need for universal coverage....
    Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'
    Each of these people and media outlets incorrectly claimed the number of uninsured to be 40 to 50 million Americans. The actual total is open to debate. But there are millions of people who should be excluded from that tally, including: those who aren’t American citizens, people who can afford their own insurance, and people who already qualify for government coverage but haven’t signed up.



    Government statistics also show 45 percent of those without insurance will have insurance again within four months after job transitions.



    Accounting for all those factors, one prominent study places the total for the long-term uninsured as low as 8.2 million – a very different reality than the media and national health care advocates claim.

    The number of the uninsured who aren’t citizens is nearly 10 million on its own, invalidating all the claims of 40+ million “Americans” without health insurance.
     

Share This Page