Simon Says: Unfreeze! Israel approves 28 schools for West Bank settlements

[Kalam]

Originally posted by JW Frogen
Israel said yes to peace and the Arab world chose war, time and time again.

Peace without justice is the peace of the slave.

A master-slave peace, where the slave has no power or will to resist and therefore submits to the dictates of the master, passively, obediently, without a semblance of human dignity.

Strange but that is Precisely the peace Islam wants. With the Jews as their slaves. If you doubt me, check history.
And please no "Golden age of Jews in X" where the second class status of Jews under Islam was so much better than under the Spanish Inquisition etc, that it became palatable by contrast.
Strangely, the more I learn of Islam the less I support it.

Are you unable to type a post without throwing in a litany of anti-Islamic bullshit?

 

[Charles Stucker]

I am glad the Zionists of Israel are growing more confident every day.

Excessive confidence breeds complacency.

Complacency leads to a relaxed state and letting your guard down.

Nice.......................

In response to Kalam.
Why don't the Islamic moderates take the radicals to task? Rid yourselves of radicals and I might be tempted to support your cause more. How many of the Islamic posters on this forum ever bother to rebut nonsense like this from the "pro-Islam" camp?

The "moderates" don't bat an eye when the radicals call for "death to the infidels" but object to being called enablers. This is the behavior I repeatedly see as I research the subject of Israel and Palestine.

I'll let you in on something - before I started coming to the board I only knew a few generalities about the Arab-Israeli Wars; the Israeli's had a better trained military which was outnumbered but their training combined with the superiority of American tanks over Russian ones gave them their victories. Now, I have read portions of the Koran (translations) and find the conceit "you have to learn Arabic to understand the Koran." I read the Israeli laws and found that the Palestinian Arabs could have all had full citizenship in Israel, but chose violence instead of peace. I've come across countless examples of violence throughout the globe committed by Islamic terrorists, and simultaneously I've seen countless excuses offered why the Islamic people are not condemning these barbarous acts.
If Islam were replaced in the above with Christianity, as it might have been in the past, would you blame someone for having a negative view of Christianity?
I try to be fair in my assessments, but the weight of evidence indicates I would be far better off living with Zionists in charge of my country than radical Islam. Be sure, my preference is for neither - I would rather have a democratic system where everyone gets a say, but if the only choice were Islam or Zion I would not choose Islam.

 

[Kalam]

In response to Kalam.
Why don't the Islamic moderates take the radicals to task? Rid yourselves of radicals and I might be tempted to support your cause more. How many of the Islamic posters on this forum ever bother to rebut nonsense like this from the "pro-Islam" camp?

Nonsense such as what? The post of Sunni Man's that you quoted? I'm sorry, but I have no more desire to see the current Israeli regime remain in power than he does. Even if we did not agree, I'm not able to see the logic in chastising my brother Muslims on USMB. There are only a handful of us here to respond to criticism in the first place; the religious bonds between believers are not so frail that they can be compromised by disagreement over petty political issues.

The "moderates" don't bat an eye when the radicals call for "death to the infidels" but object to being called enablers. This is the behavior I repeatedly see as I research the subject of Israel and Palestine.

No statement to the effect of "death to the infidels" has been made by a Muslim on the board while I've posted here. Calls for genocide by USMB posters, infrequent though they may be, seem to come exclusively from non-Muslims and are often directed at us.

Now, I have read portions of the Koran (translations) and find the conceit "you have to learn Arabic to understand the Koran."

I don't believe that anything to that effect has been said by any Muslim on USMB. A rudimentary knowledge of Arabic may be needed if you're planning on drawing any definitive conclusions, but fluency in the language is not necessary. When you say that you've read "portions," that makes me think that you've read quote-mined passages from anti-Islamic propaganda pages. Hopefully, this assumption of mine is incorrect.

I read the Israeli laws and found that the Palestinian Arabs could have all had full citizenship in Israel, but chose violence instead of peace.

A foreign population -- one with no legitimate claim to the holy land apart from a 3,000 year-old Biblical tale -- was imposed on the Arabs of Palestine. The suggestion that Palestinians missed some sort of golden opportunity by opposing the division of their land and the accommodation of foreigners that refused to assimilate is ludicrous at best.

I've come across countless examples of violence throughout the globe committed by Islamic terrorists, and simultaneously I've seen countless excuses offered why the Islamic people are not condemning these barbarous acts.

You will have to be more specific. What qualifies as a "barbarous act"? I will not condemn any attack by Muslims on the governments of oppressive countries such as Israel, Russia, and Sudan.

If Islam were replaced in the above with Christianity, as it might have been in the past, would you blame someone for having a negative view of Christianity?

If that view was the product of preconceptions formed based on the misdoings of a minority of Christians, then yes, I suppose I would.

I try to be fair in my assessments, but the weight of evidence indicates I would be far better off living with Zionists in charge of my country than radical Islam. Be sure, my preference is for neither - I would rather have a democratic system where everyone gets a say, but if the only choice were Islam or Zion I would not choose Islam.

That's your problem and no real concern of mine.

 

[Shogun]

I am glad the Zionists of Israel are growing more confident every day.

Excessive confidence breeds complacency.

Complacency leads to a relaxed state and letting your guard down.

Nice.......................

In response to Kalam.
Why don't the Islamic moderates take the radicals to task? Rid yourselves of radicals and I might be tempted to support your cause more. How many of the Islamic posters on this forum ever bother to rebut nonsense like this from the "pro-Islam" camp?

The "moderates" don't bat an eye when the radicals call for "death to the infidels" but object to being called enablers. This is the behavior I repeatedly see as I research the subject of Israel and Palestine.

I'll let you in on something - before I started coming to the board I only knew a few generalities about the Arab-Israeli Wars; the Israeli's had a better trained military which was outnumbered but their training combined with the superiority of American tanks over Russian ones gave them their victories. Now, I have read portions of the Koran (translations) and find the conceit "you have to learn Arabic to understand the Koran." I read the Israeli laws and found that the Palestinian Arabs could have all had full citizenship in Israel, but chose violence instead of peace. I've come across countless examples of violence throughout the globe committed by Islamic terrorists, and simultaneously I've seen countless excuses offered why the Islamic people are not condemning these barbarous acts.
If Islam were replaced in the above with Christianity, as it might have been in the past, would you blame someone for having a negative view of Christianity?
I try to be fair in my assessments, but the weight of evidence indicates I would be far better off living with Zionists in charge of my country than radical Islam. Be sure, my preference is for neither - I would rather have a democratic system where everyone gets a say, but if the only choice were Islam or Zion I would not choose Islam.

yea! as if anyone believes you are not already cozy inside the pocket of zionism.

******, please.

 

[Charles Stucker]

I'm sorry, but I have no more desire to see the current Israeli regime remain in power than he does.

Then you are either dreaming, if you believe that Israel will just go away, or supportive of violence to "force" them out.

No statement to the effect of "death to the infidels" has been made by a Muslim on the board while I've posted here.

I daresay I could find some examples of such if I sought them, but my reference was to the common rhetoric of Islamic 'statesmen' around the globe. Don't insult us by claiming you're unaware of that phenomenon.

I don't believe that anything to that effect has been said by any Muslim on USMB. A rudimentary knowledge of Arabic may be needed if you're planning on drawing any definitive conclusions, but fluency in the language is not necessary. When you say that you've read "portions," that makes me think that you've read quote-mined passages from anti-Islamic propaganda pages. Hopefully, this assumption of mine is incorrect.

From time to time I check out an English translation copy from the local library. The introduction includes a section on the, apparently Islamic claim, that reading a translation is more or less pointless. I fond it interesting that the main "miracle" of Mohamed was dictating the Koran.

A foreign population -- one with no legitimate claim to the holy land apart from a 3,000 year-old Biblical tale -- was imposed on the Arabs of Palestine. The suggestion that Palestinians missed some sort of golden opportunity by opposing the division of their land and the accommodation of foreigners that refused to assimilate is ludicrous at best.

Newsflash - the Jews were in the Palestinian region when Alexander the great went through. They were in that same area when the Romans conquered it. There were still Jews living in the area when the British acquired it from the Turks after WWI. Teh Arabs in Palestine were then from what about 700 onward, except the Arabs there during the 12th century were mostly killed so they really are there from about 1300 onward. No, wait, didn't the Mongols also sweep through the region, only repelled by a combined army of Crusaders and Egyptians? So the Arabs were there from say 1350 to the modern period. The same as a lot of the Jews. Living under Ottoman rule.

You will have to be more specific. What qualifies as a "barbarous act"? I will not condemn any attack by Muslims on the governments of oppressive countries such as Israel, Russia, and Sudan.

Blowing up a school bus of Filipino children sounds barbarous to me. Happened a decade or so back. Local Islamic cleric was asked what he had to say to the parents of the children. He blithely replied "Convert to Islam"
At the time I put his comment down as an aberration, because I had bought into the whole "Islam means Peace" propaganda.
Now I know better.

 

[Kalam]

Then you are either dreaming, if you believe that Israel will just go away, or supportive of violence to "force" them out.

Although his goal was achieving independence for African-Americans, Malcolm X was totally in line with Islam when he explained that freedom should be achieved by "any means necessary." So it is with freedom in Palestine. As long as the Israeli government continues to oppress, it will continue to be a legitimate target for retaliatory action. Does this extend to Israeli civilians? No, it most certainly does not. Attacking them makes us no better than the oppressor, who has used methods of collective punishment to subjugate the Palestinian people for the greater part of sixty years. Every Palestinian who throws a stone at an Israeli tank or destroys a section of the apartheid wall, on the other hand, does so with my full support.

I daresay I could find some examples of such if I sought them, but my reference was to the common rhetoric of Islamic 'statesmen' around the globe. Don't insult us by claiming you're unaware of that phenomenon.

Go ahead and give an example, if you don't mind. Speaking in generalities won't take this discussion anywhere.

From time to time I check out an English translation copy from the local library. The introduction includes a section on the, apparently Islamic claim, that reading a translation is more or less pointless. I fond it interesting that the main "miracle" of Mohamed was dictating the Koran.

Whose translation does it use?

Newsflash - the Jews were in the Palestinian region when Alexander the great went through. They were in that same area when the Romans conquered it. There were still Jews living in the area when the British acquired it from the Turks after WWI. Teh Arabs in Palestine were then from what about 700 onward, except the Arabs there during the 12th century were mostly killed so they really are there from about 1300 onward. No, wait, didn't the Mongols also sweep through the region, only repelled by a combined army of Crusaders and Egyptians? So the Arabs were there from say 1350 to the modern period. The same as a lot of the Jews. Living under Ottoman rule.

If maintaining a minuscule presence in an area secures one's right to the entire land, why haven't the remaining Native Americans reclaimed the North American continent as their ancestral homeland? God knows they'd be more justified in doing so than most Jews were in Israel. You're aware, I'm sure, that the bulk of Israeli Jews are of European origin. Their claim to the land is no more legitimate than mine would be.

Blowing up a school bus of Filipino children sounds barbarous to me. Happened a decade or so back. Local Islamic cleric was asked what he had to say to the parents of the children. He blithely replied "Convert to Islam"

Aslim Taslam. That's good advice for anybody, though it seems it was given at an inappropriate time. Anyway, are we to draw conclusions about Islam based on this incident? It goes without saying that the attack was un-Islamic.

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: During some of the battles of Allah's Apostle, a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

- Sahih Bukhari, Jihad, no. 258​

What about the hundreds of children that were slain by Israel in Gaza in the not-too-distant past?

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. - Hosea 13:16 (KJV)​

At the time I put his comment down as an aberration, because I had bought into the whole "Islam means Peace" propaganda.
Now I know better.

Indeed; I'm sure you're a veritable scholar of Islam by now.

 

[JW Frogen]

Although his goal was achieving independence for African-Americans, Malcolm X was totally in line with Islam when he explained that freedom should be achieved by "any means necessary." :

And we all know how Malcom X ended up.

As for freedom, does Hamas provide that in Gaza? Try contridicting them there as a Palestinian and see what freedom your legs or life can bare.

 

[Kalam]

And we all know how Malcom X ended up.

He knew that he was going to be killed. Frankly, dying while fighting for something you believe in sounds pretty good to me as far as deaths go.

As for freedom, does Hamas provide that in Gaza? Try contridicting them there as a Palestinian and see what freedom your legs or life can bare.

No, not really. I don't support Hamas.

 

[JW Frogen]

And we all know how Malcom X ended up.

He knew that he was going to be killed. Frankly, dying while fighting for something you believe in sounds pretty good to me as far as deaths go.

As for freedom, does Hamas provide that in Gaza? Try contridicting them there as a Palestinian and see what freedom your legs or life can bare.

No, not really. I don't support Hamas.

Glad to hear you do not support Hamas.

One of the most important books I ever read in my life was the biography of Malcom X. I was 18, and endowed with the usual white post 60's sense of race ambivalence.

I am usually a cynical, drunk bastard, but not here.

It really opened my eyes, not only to the African American experience but to the experience of a man given a really fucking bad hand of cards who turns it into a full house.

I like the way this man could grow, evolve, not only from bitter victim-criminal to racist Nation of Islam, but from racist Nation of Islam to real Muslim (after his trip to Mecca), a man who was seeking some sort of real solution to America's race problem without goveling for a solution.

This man, was a real man.

And I do respect him.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Go ahead and give an example, if you don't mind. Speaking in generalities won't take this discussion anywhere.

A few quotes from various 'Islamic' heads of state

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

Continued to press on soldiers of freedom! We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land!

Next

A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

One thing I congratulate everyone on is the great explosion which has occurred in Washington's Black House

All those against the revolution must disappear and quickly be executed

Americans are the great Satan

I find the part of having sex with animals and then selling to a different village rather telling commentary about Islam as a whole.
But wait there's more

The only way to confront the Zionist enemy is the continuation and fortification of resistance and Jihad

No doubt all those can be rationalized by an Islamic apologist.

 

[Kalam]

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

Continued to press on soldiers of freedom! We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land!

I think we can safely assume that he changed his mind before Oslo.

Moreover,

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about spoils, but collect your earnings, do right, and act well, for Allah loves those who do good. - Sunan Abu Dawud, Jihad, no. 2608​

A man can have sex with animals such as sheeps, cows, camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

I will begin by pointing out that Khomeini and pro-establishment figures in Iran are heretics. Nonetheless, that's an interesting paraphrasing of Khomeini's words.

"22. One of things which will cause an animal to be Haram, although it was originally Halal, is a human having sex with it and ... because of this work (sodomizing the animal) its meat and the meat of its lamb which will be born after sodomizing will all be Haram, along with its milk, wool, and hair.

23. If the animal which someone had sex with is an edible animal like a sheep, cow, or camel it should be killed (Zebh) and burned. If it is one of the animals which is not usually eaten but is used for riding and transportation, like a horse or donkey, it should be taken out of the city and sold in another city."

-Tahrir al-Vasyleh​

Bestiality is forbidden.

Whoever comes unto an animal, kill him and kill it with him. - Sahih al-Jami'a, no. 5938

Whoever comes unto an animal, kill him and kill it with him. - Mishkat al-Masabih, no. 3509

Whoever you find unto an animal, kill him and kill the animal with him. - Sunan al-Tirmidhi, no. 1455
​

Those who mock Islam have no shame. You'll find that copying and pasting arguments from their websites won't bolster your arguments very well; their claims tend to disintegrate easily under scrutiny.

One thing I congratulate everyone on is the great explosion which has occurred in Washington's Black House

All those against the revolution must disappear and quickly be executed

Americans are the great Satan

What does any of this have to do with Islam?

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "the best jihad in the path of Allah is a word of justice spoken to an unjust ruler." - Sunan Abu Dawud, al-Malahim, no. 4330​

I find the part of having sex with animals and then selling to a different village rather telling commentary about Islam as a whole.

That's because you are (evidently) gullible. I'm sure you'll be very useful to the anti-Islam camp.

The only way to confront the Zionist enemy is the continuation and fortification of resistance and Jihad

I'm supposed to interpret this as "death to all infidels"?

 

[Charles Stucker]

I think we can safely assume that he changed his mind before Oslo.

How prescient of me, the Islamic apologists were able to rationalize every single quote. I could put up a thousand quotes and get the same responses
"It was a mistranslation"
"That person is a heretic, not a true Muslim"
"They changed their mind"

I know why Arafat changed his mind. He got old and decided he wanted to stop dodging Israeli counterinsurgency forces (as well as international law) so he apologized for his decades of violence and mayhem and promised to do better. Quite telling that even such a small thing is considered enough to garner a Peace Prize, but then Arafat was an Arab.
Sorry I mean Arab living in the Palestine region.

 

[Kalam]

How prescient of me, the Islamic apologists were able to rationalize every single quote. I could put up a thousand quotes and get the same responses

Or, since you're clearly unsatisfied with my response, you could attempt to demonstrate that I'm incorrect. If you're more interested in haughtily rejecting my posts out-of-hand as "rationalizations" and "apologism," however, far be it from me to get in the way of an intellectual of your stature.

"It was a mistranslation"

Care to tell us where you found the quote you attributed to Khomeini?

"That person is a heretic, not a true Muslim"

The attribution of religious infallibility to men who were neither prophets nor messengers of God is deviant. As the visible figurehead of a deviant sect that submitted itself entirely to the will of men rather than the will of Allah (SWT) in religious matters, Khomeini was a major exponent of heresy.

"They changed their mind"

Did he not?

It would be one thing if I made assertions without substantiating them.

I know why Arafat changed his mind. He got old and decided he wanted to stop dodging Israeli counterinsurgency forces (as well as international law) so he apologized for his decades of violence and mayhem and promised to do better. Quite telling that even such a small thing is considered enough to garner a Peace Prize, but then Arafat was an Arab.
Sorry I mean Arab living in the Palestine region.

Oh, how wonderful it must be to have the power of clairvoyance! And what better to top off a masterpiece of an argument like yours than with a dash of ethnic prejudice?

 

[GHook93]

Day after it announced a 10-month halt to new residential building.

RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS! Meaning they are not allowing more Jews to move in. 28 schools is not part of the freeze.

So yes bones, his heading is misleading guided my his hatred of Jews!

A 10 month halt to residences being built in the West Bank along with a crack down on the settlers is a huge move by the Israelis. Its hard to implement since their are 300K jewish settlers and many in Israel who support them.

I also think Russia (Chechan and other former Soviet states) and the UK (Northern Ireland, Falklands, Giltrater sp?) need to practice what they preach before they get on their high horse!

 

[Kalam]

Simon Says: Unfreeze!... 12-02-2009 05:10 PM GHook93 You are a disingenious liar your fucking sand n#gger

That's signature material right there.

 

[GHook93]

No, not really. I don't support Hamas.

No just their ideology and their tactics!

 

[Sunni Man]

Hey!!! I feel cheated GHook!!!

A few days ago you sent me "You are a disingenious liar you fucking sand n#gger"

Now I see you sent Kalam the exact same message!!

 

[GHook93]

Hey!!! I feel cheated GHook!!!

A few days ago you sent me "You are a disingenious liar you fucking sand n#gger"

Now I see you sent Kalam the exact same message!!

Simon Says: Unfreeze!... 12-02-2009 05:10 PM GHook93 You are a disingenious liar your fucking sand n#gger

That's signature material right there.

My gift to both of you!

 

[Shogun]

Hey!!! I feel cheated GHook!!!

A few days ago you sent me "You are a disingenious liar you fucking sand n#gger"

Now I see you sent Kalam the exact same message!!

Simon Says: Unfreeze!... 12-02-2009 05:10 PM GHook93 You are a disingenious liar your fucking sand n#gger

That's signature material right there.

My gift to both of you!

awww... JEWISH RACISM... You shouldn't have! Muslims already get enough of that any given day!

 

[Shogun]

ps... nice grasp on the Engrish language you have there, hook!