Similarities Not There, Senator Hagel

[Adam's Apple]

Iraq Is No Vietnam
By Jeff Jacoby, The Boston Globe
August 25, 2005

IRAQ WAR skeptics and critics have been invoking Vietnam almost from the day the fighting began. So Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska was hardly breaking new ground when he joined the invokers on Sunday. ''We are locked into a bogged-down problem," he said on ABC's ''The Week," ''not . . . dissimilar to where we were in Vietnam."

Run-of-the-mill stuff on the Democratic left, but since Hagel is a Republican, his words instantly leaped to the top of the news cycle. ''GOP Senator Says Iraq Looking Like Vietnam," was the headline on AP's widely reprinted story.

Yet in so many ways, Iraq doesn't look like Vietnam at all. Vietnam was never the central battleground of the Cold War, while Iraq has become the focal point of the war on terrorism. Americans had no reason to feel that their own security was at risk in Vietnam, whereas 9/11 made it clear that the enemy we face today poses a lethal threat here at home as well. The jihadis in Iraq don't have the backing of superpowers; North Vietnam and the Viet Cong were armed to the teeth by China and the Soviet Union. In South Vietnam, the United States was allied to an unpopular and incompetent regime; in Iraq, the United States toppled a brutal tyranny and is trying to nurture a democracy in its place.

But of all the ways in which the Iraq war is not like Vietnam, perhaps the most telling is the attitude of the troops.

''When I was in Vietnam," retired Army Colonel Jack Jacobs, a 1969 Medal of Honor recipient who had just returned from a fact-finding trip to the Sunni Triangle, told NBC News in May, ''if you asked anybody what he wanted more than anything else in the world, he'd say: to go home. We asked . . . hundreds of soldiers, low-ranking soldiers, in both Afghanistan and Iraq . . . the same question. And the response, to a man and a woman, was, 'To kill bad guys.' . . . The morale is just over the top -- just really, really enthused about what they're doing. And I think the reason is they perceive that they're making progress. Success will do a lot to morale."

Indeed it will, as the ''Today" show's Matt Lauer discovered when he visited Baghdad last week. He tried valiantly to coax some Vietnam-style disillusionment out of the soldiers he met, but as NBC's transcript makes clear, the troops weren't having any of that:

for full article: http://www.realclearpolitics.com, first article listed under Thursday Morning, August 25

 

[Merlin1047]

The more I look at the Iraq situation, the more it begins to resemble the Viet Nam debacle to me. The only thing that's missing is the President designating which targets will be bombed.

Think about it. In the Viet Nam war we allowed the enemy to hide in neighboring countries and did not attack them - at least not to any effective extent.

In the Viet Nam war we talked about "winning the hearts and minds" of the people.

In the Viet Nam war we talked about "Vietnamization" of the war.

In the Viet Nam war we were fighting in the wrong place - we should have been fighting in NORTH Viet Nam. Now we're bogged down in Iraq when we should have already been kicking the asses of the Saudis and the Syrians and perhaps the Iranians as well.

We still have not managed to kill Bin Laden.

Sure the reasons for entering the conflict differ, but so what? The end result is much the same.

I have become extremely disillusioned with President Bush. His lack of communication skills is killing our troops. We say that the rantings, distortions and lies of the left wing idiots gives aid and encouragement to our enemies. That is certainly true. But the ineffective bumbling and mumbling by our President accomplishes exactly the same thing. Whenever some outrageous statment by some leftist scum like Kennedy goes unchallenged, it gives terrorists an ever more solid footing. By refusing to get out and call Kennedy a drunken, immoral, lying traitor Bush is giving credibility to his moronic statements.

Perhaps it's time to lock Bush in the White House and let Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice do the talking for our country.

 

[archangel]

The more I look at the Iraq situation, the more it begins to resemble the Viet Nam debacle to me. The only thing that's missing is the President designating which targets will be bombed.

Think about it. In the Viet Nam war we allowed the enemy to hide in neighboring countries and did not attack them - at least not to any effective extent.

In the Viet Nam war we talked about "winning the hearts and minds" of the people.

In the Viet Nam war we talked about "Vietnamization" of the war.

In the Viet Nam war we were fighting in the wrong place - we should have been fighting in NORTH Viet Nam. Now we're bogged down in Iraq when we should have already been kicking the asses of the Saudis and the Syrians and perhaps the Iranians as well.

We still have not managed to kill Bin Laden.

Sure the reasons for entering the conflict differ, but so what? The end result is much the same.

I have become extremely disillusioned with President Bush. His lack of communication skills is killing our troops. We say that the rantings, distortions and lies of the left wing idiots gives aid and encouragement to our enemies. That is certainly true. But the ineffective bumbling and mumbling by our President accomplishes exactly the same thing. Whenever some outrageous statment by some leftist scum like Kennedy goes unchallenged, it gives terrorists an ever more solid footing. By refusing to get out and call Kennedy a drunken, immoral, lying traitor Bush is giving credibility to his moronic statements.

Perhaps it's time to lock Bush in the White House and let Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice do the talking for our country.

Rumsfeld I can go with...Dick and Condi not...maybe get rid of Carl as he screens comments from Rumsfeld et al....!

 

[ekrem]

Iraq Is No Vietnam
By Jeff Jacoby, The Boston Globe
August 25, 2005

IRAQ WAR skeptics and critics have been invoking Vietnam almost from the day the fighting began. So Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska was hardly breaking new ground when he joined the invokers on Sunday. ''We are locked into a bogged-down problem," he said on ABC's ''The Week," ''not . . . dissimilar to where we were in Vietnam."

Run-of-the-mill stuff on the Democratic left, but since Hagel is a Republican, his words instantly leaped to the top of the news cycle. ''GOP Senator Says Iraq Looking Like Vietnam," was the headline on AP's widely reprinted story.

Yet in so many ways, Iraq doesn't look like Vietnam at all. Vietnam was never the central battleground of the Cold War, while Iraq has become the focal point of the war on terrorism.

IRAQ is central. boarders are long, need more Troops for that.
And Terrorists comeing through this boarders. Attacks rise constantly.

Military experienced politician know what they say, they were not always talkers.
But America calls Soldiers home, these Terrorists remain. Then they achieved kicking US-Soldier out of Iraq. 150.000 Soldiers and you call 10.000 home or more, the situation will dramatize in IRAQ.

George Bush will remain in IRAQ as he says the job is undone.
But with 150.000 soldiers the situation will not better.

Americans had no reason to feel that their own security was at risk in Vietnam, whereas 9/11 made it clear that the enemy we face today poses a lethal threat here at home as well. The jihadis in Iraq don't have the backing of superpowers; North Vietnam and the Viet Cong were armed to the teeth by China and the Soviet Union. In South Vietnam, the United States was allied to an unpopular and incompetent regime; in Iraq, the United States toppled a brutal tyranny and is trying to nurture a democracy in its place.

But of all the ways in which the Iraq war is not like Vietnam, perhaps the most telling is the attitude of the troops.

''When I was in Vietnam," retired Army Colonel Jack Jacobs, a 1969 Medal of Honor recipient who had just returned from a fact-finding trip to the Sunni Triangle, told NBC News in May, ''if you asked anybody what he wanted more than anything else in the world, he'd say: to go home. We asked . . . hundreds of soldiers, low-ranking soldiers, in both Afghanistan and Iraq . . . the same question. And the response, to a man and a woman, was, 'To kill bad guys.' . . . The morale is just over the top -- just really, really enthused about what they're doing. And I think the reason is they perceive that they're making progress. Success will do a lot to morale."

Indeed it will, as the ''Today" show's Matt Lauer discovered when he visited Baghdad last week. He tried valiantly to coax some Vietnam-style disillusionment out of the soldiers he met, but as NBC's transcript makes clear, the troops weren't having any of that:

for full article: http://www.realclearpolitics.com, first article listed under Thursday Morning, August 25

it seems in america can everything happen. power to the people.

How will America change the Middle East "on GROUND" when this is this morale calling US-Soldiers home, showing everyone whom you fight and the whole World (Realpolitics) that the engine stopped.

Americans have plans. without Army nothing is going to change.
I do not know what situation is in USA but your plans will have need more than 150.000 soldiers. Anything else is illusion.
Look in Iraq there is no-Power.
Police-Duties are made by several Organizations, varying from different locations. And as there is no CENTRAL power makes Security-Power , IRAQ is everything than stabilized.
One man one vote. This is democracy in USA also in IRAQ. SHIITES will dominate.
But you didn't fought SHIITES much. Only SUNNITES.
But SHIITES will not fight as they are going to have the power in elections.


now only Sunnites-Terrorists bombing. And as mentioned before AL-QAEDA-OPEN-BOARDERS.

Iraq is great challenge haveing 150.000 Troops.


It is normal that at least the Defence-Minister, RUMFSFELD in American Case, has to kicked out of Cabinet.
The defence minitry didn't made good job when you see the ground, i think...

This no Anti- US-Administration-sentence, but only saying that in other states at least the defece ministry had to go till now.
But if i were american i would have supported Wesley Clarke.
wesley clarke

former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO
--> NUMBER ONE 1 NATO-COMMANDER ordering this NATO-PACT.

Army time would have done in your plans much better.

 

[dilloduck]

IRAQ is central. boarders are long, need more Troops for that.
And Terrorists comeing through this boarders. Attacks rise constantly.

Military experienced politician know what they say, they were not always talkers.
But America calls Soldiers home, these Terrorists remain. Then they achieved kicking US-Soldier out of Iraq. 150.000 Soldiers and you call 10.000 home or more, the situation will dramatize in IRAQ.

George Bush will remain in IRAQ as he says the job is undone.
But with 150.000 soldiers the situation will not better.







it seems in america can everything happen. power to the people.

How will America change the Middle East "on GROUND" when this is this morale calling US-Soldiers home, showing everyone whom you fight and the whole World (Realpolitics) that the engine stopped.

Americans have plans. without Army nothing is going to change.
I do not know what situation is in USA but your plans will have need more than 150.000 soldiers. Anything else is illusion.
Look in Iraq there is no-Power.
Police-Duties are made by several Organizations, varying from different locations. And as there is no CENTRAL power makes Security-Power , IRAQ is everything than stabilized.
One man one vote. This is democracy in USA also in IRAQ. SHIITES will dominate.
But you didn't fought SHIITES much. Only SUNNITES.
But SHIITES will not fight as they are going to have the power in elections.


now only Sunnites-Terrorists bombing. And as mentioned before AL-QAEDA-OPEN-BOARDERS.

Iraq is great challenge haveing 150.000 Troops.


It is normal that at least the Defence-Minister, RUMFSFELD in American Case, has to kicked out of Cabinet.
The defence minitry didn't made good job when you see the ground, i think...

This no Anti- US-Administration-sentence, but only saying that in other states at least the defece ministry had to go till now.
But if i were american i would have supported Wesley Clarke.
wesley clarke

former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO
--> NUMBER ONE 1 NATO-COMMANDER ordering this NATO-PACT.

Army time would have done in your plans much better.

I agree--It's time for an overwhelming show of force and power. It's also time to make clear that we will always have permanent bases in Iraq to be ready for immediate action anywhere in the area. Screw this leaving idea.

 

[ekrem]

I agree--It's time for an overwhelming show of force and power. It's also time to make clear that we will always have permanent bases in Iraq to be ready for immediate action anywhere in the area. Screw this leaving idea.

You have everywhere permanent bases. And now that is the Cold-War over, US-ARMY reorganizes TROOP-BASES from EUROPA to Middle East.
Incirlik-Base / Turkey is considered but americans hace plans, maybee IRAQ, and maybe NORTHERN-IRAQ specially. Bush knows.

Germany / Rammstein-Base and England-Bases and others will move.
This all Plans going on. Also Nato-Strategy.


Military manpower - availability:
Definition Field Listing
males age 18-49: 67,742,879 (2005 est.)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Military


and then 150.000 Soldiers in Iraq.
2 years all televison-news the same not better, By BUSH's Speeches, when I watched, always US-ARMY-GENERALS always sitting there in Parliament. In first line-seats as they should.
Showing the world woman sitting there with painted blue finger is the same Bush fotografed with plastic-THANKSGIVING.


USA is Super-Power but as time walks i think further that other countries in the same situation would have done much better, of course knowing that they don't have $ as USA has and pumps in to Army. Where is that whole money bringing such news from IRAQ?

This no disrespect to you but i think so.

 

[Gunny]

This no Anti- US-Administration-sentence, but only saying that in other states at least the defece ministry had to go till now.
But if i were american i would have supported Wesley Clarke.
wesley clarke.

Been getting into the Turkish hash, huh?

 

[Adam's Apple]

There have been people who started calling Iraq a "quagmire" almost from the first day of the war. The Bush Administration has always said that the WOT would be a long, hard slog. Never once have they given the American people the impression that this war would be a short, quick war. Go back and read President Bush's report to the national when the WOT first began.

It seems to me that the Bush Administration's plan for Iraq is on course. Saddam is no longer in power, the people have had an election to select those who would be the interim government, and they are finalizing the writing of their constitution. The violence has increased accordingly as each step has been achieved, as the Bush Administration told us it would. Now we are coming down to the last few steps, approving the constitution and having an election to select the leaders of the new government. The violence will escalate to intimidate the people to keep these last steps from happening. The MSM is going to make a big SPLASH out of this violence, even though we've been warned ahead of time that it is going to happen.

I am not trying to say that mistakes have not been made in the conduct of this war, but similar mistakes have been made in the conduct of every past war. At the beginning of WWII, we did not win a battle for the first six months. Many lives were being lost on a daily basis. Can you imagine the ruckus that would have occurred in the press today if something like that had happened in the WOT?

Certainly a big mistake the Bush Administration has made in the conduct of this war is not having a unit in place to keep the American public informed about the war's progress on a regular basis. It is certainly not smart to let go unchallenged/unanswered the current negativity/pessimism being spewed by the MSM whose goal is to convince us that Iraq is a quagmire and not worth fighting, despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[Gunny]

The biggest current problem I see is being force to play patty-cake with these terrorists the left and MSM continue attempting to legitimize by calling them "insurgents," because we're "the good guys."

They are a cancer on the process and should be removed by whatever means necessary.

It's moot now anyway that "What Cindy's Doing" has passed Iraq and/or the WOT in the MSMs agenda.

I need to get me a gimmick. I want to be on the news.

 

[ekrem]

Been getting into the Turkish hash, huh?

yes, make fun with turkish hash, it is indeed very good.

 

[ekrem]

There have been people who started calling Iraq a "quagmire" almost from the first day of the war. The Bush Administration has always said that the WOT would be a long, hard slog. Never once have they given the American people the impression that this war would be a short, quick war. Go back and read President Bush's report to the national when the WOT first began.

It seems to me that the Bush Administration's plan for Iraq is on course. Saddam is no longer in power, the people have had an election to select those who would be the interim government, and they are finalizing the writing of their constitution. The violence has increased accordingly as each step has been achieved, as the Bush Administration told us it would. Now we are coming down to the last few steps, approving the constitution and having an election to select the leaders of the new government. The violence will escalate to intimidate the people to keep these last steps from happening. The MSM is going to make a big SPLASH out of this violence, even though we've been warned ahead of time that it is going to happen.

I am not trying to say that mistakes have not been made in the conduct of this war, but similar mistakes have been made in the conduct of every past war. At the beginning of WWII, we did not win a battle for the first six months. Many lives were being lost on a daily basis. Can you imagine the ruckus that would have occurred in the press today if something like that had happened in the WOT?

Certainly a big mistake the Bush Administration has made in the conduct of this war is not having a unit in place to keep the American public informed about the war's progress on a regular basis. It is certainly not smart to let go unchallenged/unanswered the current negativity/pessimism being spewed by the MSM whose goal is to convince us that Iraq is a quagmire and not worth fighting, despite evidence to the contrary.

Yes, i respect your opinion...
But seperate rising Suicide-bomobings with as an logical step, as USA is forewarding in IRAQ. The connections are that there is chaotic situation, not american forewarding.

Iraqi Politicians jailed in the secured "Green Zone" where the parliament is.
Politicans go out "Green Zone", they going 90% for sure bombed.

I do not see here the connections.
In my opinion, Constitution-blabla is Theatre.
Will US-Sodilers go out IRAQ, then the real game begins. Then the cards will mixed up new.

 

[Adam's Apple]

Will US-Sodilers go out IRAQ, then the real game begins. Then the cards will mixed up new.

Well, let's be optimistic and hope that the Iraqis will be able to take care of themselves after the coalition forces depart. At least, the U.S. will have done everything it can to help the Iraqi people live in freedom. If the Iraqis value their freedom, they will find a way to unite and make their democracy work. That's the only way they can truly thank those nations which participated in the WOT in Iraq.

 

[Merlin1047]

It seems to me that the Bush Administration's plan for Iraq is on course. Saddam is no longer in power, the people have had an election to select those who would be the interim government, and they are finalizing the writing of their constitution. The violence has increased accordingly as each step has been achieved, as the Bush Administration told us it would. Now we are coming down to the last few steps, approving the constitution and having an election to select the leaders of the new government. The violence will escalate to intimidate the people to keep these last steps from happening. The MSM is going to make a big SPLASH out of this violence, even though we've been warned ahead of time that it is going to happen.

Well, I hope you're right, but that's not how I see it. I see an administration that is losing the war, not in Iraq, but right here at home. It is losing that war because George Bush and his administration are unable to communicate with the majority of the American people. As a result, the left wingers and their devious propoganda are gaining more ground every day. If we lose this war - as I believe it is now likely that we will - we will lose it for the same reason we lost Viet Nam. Viet Nam was not a military defeat, it was lost because of the government's response to the cowardly left who sees nothing beyond their own social interests.

It's happening all over again and the end result will likely be the same ignominious end we experienced before.

If we want to win this war we have to:

1. Reinstitute the draft
2. Be willing to attack known terrorist bases or encampments in ANY country throughout the world without regard for political fallout.
3. Remove all armed forces from places like Germany, Italy etc. Send them to Iraq. Then start at one end of the country and go to the other. Kill everything carrying more than a slingshot.
4. Get the government out of military decisions. That's why we pay generals.
5. Send expeditionary forces into Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan to destroy any suspected terrorist bases.
6. Freeze and confiscate the assets of any nation known to harbor terrorist bases on its soil.

I'm sure there are other effective measure I have not thought of, but you get the picture. We either need to decide that we're going to fight all-out, no holds barred or we need to pick up our marbles and go home like the spineless wimps that leftists in this country want us to be.

 

[ekrem]

I think, Iran, China, Russia

sit just relaxed in their chairs and lughing at this situation...

very strange... Vietnam was much more dramatic, american society tired of makeing war... fighting spirit gone.

perhaps i am false to say so.

nothing is given for free, you have to make effords to achieve something.

 

[theim]

We really have little choice. We [must] win. Lose this and its unlikely we will ever win another major war, ever.

The thing to understand is that the leftists who have taken the reigns of the Democratic Party do not simply have a different idea of America should be run, they do not want America to even exist. Micheal Moore, Howard Dean, Cindy Sheehan, etc. all want either A) A communist-type society where all are at the whim of the government, or B) no America at all. I'm not exagerating here. I am listening to what these people say and taking them at their word.

The problem is that they are getting our younger generations to look at us more as "citizens of the world" than Americans. And a good citizen of the world sees all that America has done and sees it is EVIL. In my sister's high school there is an entire art exibit dedicated to how bad America is. In any other time of any other country's history this stuff -activly rooting for America to lose- would be considered treasonous. But the leftists have crafted a perverse defense that "Since I am using the freedoms provided to me to say 'I hate America', I actually am a Patriot!".

No. Using the freedoms provided to you to trash your country does not make you a patriot, it makes you a blood-sucking leech. It makes you a parasite, and if rational people had their way you would be plucked off and flung to Mexico or Canada.

Leftists do not see and recognize national borders. They recognize political borders. Their identity as Americans means nothing to them. They would gladly shed it if it would not harm them politically. They do not have this country's interests at heart because they do not care about this country's interests. National interests and nations themselves are for the bougousie(sp?). Tradition and heritage are exclusive and racist.

I seem to have gotten a bit sidetracked. The point of the above is that leftists do not care about America. But be that as it may many Americans have fallen for their dupe that they are indeed patriotic and do have this country's interests at heart. We need to not be afraid and cower everytime someone accuses us of "questioning their patriotism". We need to be able to say once in awhile "you're damn right I'm questioning your patriotism". Everytime someone accuses us of "stiffling dissent" just by disagreeing with them we have to stand up and explain that those were some of the same silencing tactis used by dictators. Of course they love leftist dictators, so that one probly wouldn't work.

But we cannot, let them lose another war for us.