"Signs and Wonders"....

[dmp]

-Cp needs 'proof' before he can have 'faith'.

 

[-Cp]

-Cp needs 'proof' before he can have 'faith'.

That's not true - faith in God has nothing to do with having faith in supposed "miracles".... If I want to see that I can watch a circus like Benny Hinn...

 

[Hobbit]

Really? Can you name any Christian sources as to evidence of these happenings?

Nothing at my fingertips right now, but this one I've seen firsthand. You'll also hear many accounts of this if you see Pentecostal missionaries to Africa when they make trips back to America for fundraising. It usually isn't widely published as far too many people think we're quacks already and would probably dismiss it as a hallucination or fabrication. In business terms, it's bad for publicity. I know that sounds a little weak, but I will do my best to find published stuff for ya.

 

[-Cp]

Tongues is real, too. Usually, it's not a language normally spoken on Earth and I do believe that at least some people who do that are either faking or delusional, but that it is real. The gift of tongues that you referred to is typically unneeded in America, as those who don't speak English can find a Spanish church in their area.

Umm.. it iis always referred as "Tongues" - the greek word of Glossa in all instances which Paul referrs to it in the book of Acts and 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14.

It's definition is:
1. the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2.a tongue
a.the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

 

[dmp]

That's not true - faith in God has nothing to do with having faith in supposed "miracles".... If I want to see that I can watch a circus like Benny Hinn...

Id Est, You want PROOF of miracles before you'll 'believe' they happen.

 

[-Cp]

Id Est, You want PROOF of miracles before you'll 'believe' they happen.

Once again - not at all - I don't need "proof" that God did many miracles in the Bible - I take them in Faith..

I would, however, love to see documented cases from folks who claim God still does the same kinds of "big miracles" today - e.g. Someone raised from the dead, deaf person healed, blindness healed or a new limb grown..

I think it'd be GREAT NEWS to have those documented as it'd sure help add evidence that our God is alive and well to all the non-believers out there...

 

[Bonnie]

Okay - gonna move this topic over here as to not hijack the <a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310898#post310898" target=_blank">other thread</a>.

Who here thinks that "Signs and Wonders" / All the gifts of the Spirit / tongues / etc are stell relevant for today..

I for one, do not...

Miracles happen everyday some subtle, some very apparent, could it be that we have grown so cynical we don't see them anymore?

My family and I have experienced one very extraordinary miracle of supernatural origin, and many important subtle ones that someone who didn't have faith might call coincidences.

When someone comes out of a coma after 10 or more years that is certainly a miracle, not quite Lazarus walking on the third day but just as significant. When a person is stranded at sea with just a life jacket and after a few days there happens to be a plane that spots them just in time you will more often than not hear them say they prayed for the first time in their lives for a miracle and then heard the plane or ship coming....Faith is what seperates that from being coincidence or miracle.

 

[colehart]

Miracles happen everyday some subtle, some very apparent, could it be that we have grown so cynical we don't see them anymore?

My family and I have experienced one very extraordinary miracle of supernatural origin, and many important subtle ones that someone who didn't have faith might call coincidences.

When someone comes out of a coma after 10 or more years that is certainly a miracle, not quite Lazarus walking on the third day but just as significant. When a person is stranded at sea with just a life jacket and after a few days there happens to be a plane that spots them just in time you will more often than not hear them say they prayed for the first time in their lives for a miracle and then heard the plane or ship coming....Faith is what seperates that from being coincidence or miracle.

Those examples you described are not miraculous(in my opinion). If a limb, arm/leg were to be missing and the next morning it suddenly appeared as if it were never missing. That's a miracle! Another example of what I would call a miracle would be if a person died and had be dead for several days and people prayed for their life to be restored, that's a miracle! Other than those types of things, I'm not a believer in modern day miracles.

 

[dmp]

I would, however, love to see documented cases from folks who claim God still does the same kinds of "big miracles" today - e.g. Someone raised from the dead, deaf person healed, blindness healed or a new limb grown..

Translation:

In order for me to believe in Miracles today, I need to see proof.

 

[dmp]

Those examples you described are not miraculous(in my opinion). If a limb, arm/leg were to be missing and the next morning it suddenly appeared as if it were never missing. That's a miracle!

for me, getting some action from my wife is a miracle.

:-/

 

[-Cp]

Translation:

In order for me to believe in Miracles today, I need to see proof.

Dude.. please.. stop trying to put words in my mouth and it'd be good as well to actually read some of my posts..

I Have never once said "I don't believe in miracles" - what I have question is whether or not God still works the same ways today as he did in the Bible with "signs and wonders" of things of the magnitude of:

1. Raising the Dead
2. Growing new limbs on a person's body
3. Healing the blind
4. Healing the deaf

I just find it odd that the only types of "miracles" we hear about are ones that take place on the inner parts of one's body, and nothing that'd be overtly obvious as what happened in the days of the Apostles..

 

[dmp]

Dude.. please.. stop trying to put words in my mouth and it'd be good as well to actually read some of my posts..

I Have never once said "I don't believe in miracles" - what I have question is whether or not God still works the same ways today as he did in the Bible with "signs and wonders" of things of the magnitude of:

1. Raising the Dead
2. Growing new limbs on a person's body
3. Healing the blind
4. Healing the deaf

I just find it odd that the only types of "miracles" we hear about are ones that take place on the inner parts of one's body, and nothing that'd be overtly obvious as what happened in the days of the Apostles..

You are now arguing semantics. You clearly do NOT believe Miracles happen today, as they did in Biblical days. You are asking for PROOF miracles happen today, as they did in Biblical days. You have clearly stated that apart from PROOF of the occurances, you won't believe they exist.

Why do you have a problem with that? If you don't have the faith to believe God still raises people from the dead, or grows new limbs on them, sobeit. That's your call.

 

[-Cp]

You are now arguing semantics. You clearly do NOT believe Miracles happen today, as they did in Biblical days. You are asking for PROOF miracles happen today, as they did in Biblical days. You have clearly stated that apart from PROOF of the occurances, you won't believe they exist.

Why do you have a problem with that? If you don't have the faith to believe God still raises people from the dead, or grows new limbs on them, sobeit. That's your call.

Your statements seem to imply that God is bound by whether or not I have Faith for those things to happen....

 

[dmp]

Your statements seem to imply that God is bound by whether or not I have Faith for those things to happen....

No - that's a very weird implication to take. (shrug). I can't force you to reason; I can only help you clearify what 'you' say. You state:

"I believe God isn't in the business of Biblical-sized 'miracles' anymore".

"If YOU believe he is, show evidence."

That means, without having to do much thought:

"-Cp requires PROOF in order to believe (Faith) Miracles happen today, as they did back then".

I'm unsure how you can argue your own words bro.

 

[Eightball]

The "tongues"(Glossolalia) most often observed in Pentacostal or Charismatic church situations/environs is not unlike the phenomena that can be found in many other religious and non religious folks around the world.

Some claim that they have a language that is of a spiritual nature, and therefore it's classed as a "prayer language".

Just remember one important factor about the "tongues" that occured when the Church first started in Jerusalem during Pentacost. The disciples and apostles were all speaking "recognizeable" languages to the many thousands of Jewish sojourners/foreigners that had come to Jerusalem at that time.

Now, in 1 Corinthians, Paul does mention that he communed privately in prayer with God utilizing a type of tongues that was of some nature that had to be interpretted if it was ever excercised in the presence of other believers. In other words it would not make sense to anyone unless it was understood, and apparently there were some that were able to interpret. He did however emphasize that it should be kept private.

Here's the big "but" part of my statement!

Paul said that even though he said this utterance he made between he and God was a gift, it was of the lowest importance of any of the gifts, and was not to be desired over the others.

Paul went on to say that this means of utterance would scare away unbelievers, unless it was understood or interpretted immediately.

Paul, had to deal with a lot of problems with the many churches that he established or watched-over through out Asia Minor, and the church at Corinth was notable for it's immaturity. You will find as you read the two letters to the church at Corinth that Paul had a bunch of very immature, and carnal Christians to deal with. Remember also that the Corinthians were mostly non-Jews or Gentiles in background, and therefore had many pagan belief systems as a back-drop to becoming Christians.

The Corinthians had "keyed" in on the gifts of the Spirit, rather than the Person of Jesus Christ as the center of their life and identity. Manifestations seemed to take center stage in the Corinth Church, not unlike many churches nowadays. Paul even referred to the Corinthian Christians as "Milk Fed Babies" that could or wouldn't be able to handle meat, i.e., "Meat" meaning a, deeper, or mature understanding of the Christian life/relationship/identity with Christ.

Paul does emphasize in his letters that these gifts or evidences needed to be under-girded with love. Having or receiving a bonafide gift is not an evidence of a Christian's maturity in the faith. A gift is just a gift. It doesn't mean that one is more favored, over another by God. Now the disclaimer: These Corinthian gifts are not as common as the modern church would have you think. Another reminder. Old Lucipher, can perform some pretty good miracles too. Christians fail to test all things against scripture. Does this alleged blessing glorify God or the believer. That's the bottom line. Thomas the disciple was a perfect example of the one that couldn't believe unless he had visual proof/stimulation. Jesus mildly scolded Thomas by saying to all present that "He saw and believed, but blessed are those that have the faith to believe without all the physical proofs being demanded".

I have visited many churches throughout my years as a Christian, i.e. Charismatic and non-Charismatic alike, and where these alleged gifts of tongues have been manifest, they have never been excercised in a way that created a manifestation of love, or peace, but on the other hand, have caused fear, confusion, and often discord, as many people wondered what these strange sounds being emitted by these worshippers represented or meant.

These churches seemed to lack mature Christians for the most-part, as most of the folks there seemed to see the Christian life as just one big adventure of excercising, seeking-out or praying for gifts. This type of Christian has the greatest rate of depression and falling-away rate in my opinion, as the have bet their whole identity or beliefs on evidences in and outside their lives. When these evidences start to dry-up, or don't seem to happen as often, these folks immediately start to fall-away from the faith, and become depressed, disenchanted, and disillussioned. God has let them down, or they question their conversion as legitimate.

Not being a real endorser of the 700 Club, I did watch it many years ago and believe I did witness a true example of one that had been gifted.

A young Christian man from New Orleans(I believe), some how had acquired the ability to speak flawless Spanish, but it was of a certain dialect. As he was interviewed on the show(700 club) he shared that the dialect was the Spanish of Equador. He could understand, speak and write in this dialect. This was a White, Anglo-saxon, Southern boy, that had just average education. He fully understood the grammatical part of this dialect too.

Now, along with this ability came an incredible desire to go to Equador and be a missionary to the people there. This man not only was gifted, but acquired an insatiable love/desire to serve the indigenous people there.

Now that sounded like a real bonafide gift, in the spirit of Pentacost when the church was first born.

I think that God has gifted all of us in so many ways. We all have abilities, that no one else can match. Some of the abilities are more noticeable, but most will probably not get much notice. I believe that our very personalities that make us unique individuals, is also a great tool to touch others of similar personalities.

I believe that God gifts nowadays in the biblical, or Corinthians sense, but I don't think these gifts are as common as a certain part of the Christian church would have you believe.

I believe that much of the Tongues(Glossolalia) movement is psychosomatic. The emphasis in many factions of the Pentacostal/Charismatic movement has been pushed with the notion that Tongues is a "second" blessing from God, or an evidence of the Holy Spirit's infilling of the individual. None of this is substantiated in the bible. In fact, both the immature and the mature believer/Christian have/receive all of Christ upon conversion on that day they repent and receive.

The battle in the Christian's life is the old "mind". The mind still has the programming from the life before conversion, and now that the believer has a brand new nature from God(Jesus's Life), the Battle Royale commenses. Satan in my opinion loves the fact that believers are searching for any and all manifestations to pump up and add some excitment to their Christian lives. The more that believers do this, the more that the world isn't impacted by Christ.

Satan doesn't want the love of God that awaits dormant in every believer to touch others and glorify God. Satan desires that the believer live a life of self-satisfaction, and literally hide the "light" under a bushel, and never let that special light shine out and bring healing(truth) to others.

For whom much is given, much will be expected.

Remember again, Glossolalia(Tongues) manifests itself in many of the world's religions. I'm talking about the very common manifestations that are happening in most Pentacostal, and Charismatic settings. There is no physical, vocal difference or distinction between a Bhuddist, or Hindu who also makes these utterances. This has been extensively studied/observed for years. Many folks in their extreme endeavors to draw close to the entity or person that they are venerating, can and often break into psychosomatic, unintelligible, sounds or utterances.

Again, love is the missing element. If the person next to you breaks into tongues some Sunday morning at worship, but then nearly runs you over driving out of the parking lot after church is over, you might question whether you actually saw the work of God in them. Satan is a great imitator, and deciever.

Just my opinion.

 

[dmp]

I think you nailed it.

 

[-Cp]

Great post Eightball - but what does that have to do w/ the "Miracles" in question on this thread?

 

[Bonnie]

Those examples you described are not miraculous(in my opinion). If a limb, arm/leg were to be missing and the next morning it suddenly appeared as if it were never missing. That's a miracle! Another example of what I would call a miracle would be if a person died and had be dead for several days and people prayed for their life to be restored, that's a miracle! Other than those types of things, I'm not a believer in modern day miracles.

There have been miracles of healing at Lourdes, which the church actually has documented as miracles.


http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml


Of course it's still all in one's perspective .

 

[Abbey Normal]

for me, getting some action from my wife is a miracle.

:-/

D, that cracked me up.

 

[Eightball]

Great post Eightball - but what does that have to do w/ the "Miracles" in question on this thread?

CP:

It has a great deal to do with it as the present Christian church in America especially is focusing more and more on gifts and not the "Gift Giver".

Apostle Pauls couldn't say it enough to all the believers........"beware of wolves in sheeps clothing".

Let's face it. Most of the world looks at Christianity as just another religion. How do those that embrace Christianity see it? Most who have embraced it with all their being will say that it is not a religion, but a relationship. In other words, we are talking about an identity with God. This is a new identity that has divorced itself from aimlessly trying to find significance for life in the wrong places.

Now we have all these incredible miracles performed not only by Jesus Himself, but His disciples too, right at, and following Pentacost. These signs established one thing in particular. They established the fact that God was with these folks, and what they said should be listened to.

Nowadays, we do not have Apostles anymore, but we do have a multitude of Saints(All Christians). Now how are we supposed to testify of Jesus's redemptive work in this poor old lost world? Paul says that love conquers all....and he's talking about the Agape type of love that's sacrificial. In other words, it's an action that looks beyond one's first needs but places other's first. That's the same love(Agape) exhibited at Calvary(Golgotha).

Did all those miracles in the desert turn God's folks to Him? No! In fact they wanted more miracles, and more miracles. Man's memory is very short when it comes to miracles. Moses's folks wanted meat so God gave them fresh quail. Then they tired of quail. All along the fact that they were being fed a 'friggin' desert didn't seem to ring a bell in their minds. These folks were living on the grace of God, but they craved Signs and Wonders in order to stay obedient and even function.

No, my posts were just answering a special question that is very related to the signs and wonders debate. What really has the "sticking" power? More gifts or more faith? For that matter, is faith something we conjure-up, or is it a gift? Actually, believing in God is actually a gift from God, but most folks think they're just better at believing than the guy next door.

No, it's all grace. From beginning to end.

Gifts are a wonderful thing............but remember the 10 Lepers that Jesus healed. Only one came back and fell at His feet and thanked Him. The others just went to the temple as told to do and followed the prescribed Jewish practices of receiving miraculous healing. Only one turned around and exhibited gratefullness to the Giver of all good things.

We are all walking, talking miracles. Every day of our lives! Every time we take a breath it's a miracle from our maker.

I just expressed my feelings about one particular controversial gift, but in actuality, all of the gifts listed in Corinthians are quite rare, and counterfeited in most cases.

U.S. Christians are pretty fat and sassy. We have so much that we've gained from focusing on all things, but our Maker. We often want to bring this "fat" gospel to other parts of the world, where potential converts only crave, personal peace, and assurance for their's and their family's futures. These folks aren't looking for signs and wonders, they're looking for Christ, and they need to see Him in us. His nature was given to us at conversion, but we "stuff" it and would rather go on gift hunts. The very work of God in us through His Holy Spirit is the greatest miracle of all. I know that many will question this lady's Catholic background, but Mother Teresa exhibited a passion and love for the unloveable and lost that exemplifies what the surrendered Christian can accomplish in His power, and not their's. I personally am not Catholic, but this lady didn't squabble over doctrine, but just put her faith to work.

The U.S. Christian is suffering from a real identity crisis. We still suffer from trying establish our peace, security, and acceptance in our personal deeds, job titles, monetary success, possessions, charitableness...........etc.. while all along our identity was established once and for all at the base of the Cross. We hypocritically refer to Him as Lord, yet we live as though the we are the one's that calls the last "shot".

Just my opinion again.