"Signs and Wonders"....

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by -Cp, Jul 24, 2005.

  1. -Cp
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    -Cp Senior Member

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    Okay - gonna move this topic over here as to not hijack the <a href="http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310898#post310898" target=_blank">other thread</a>.

    Who here thinks that "Signs and Wonders" / All the gifts of the Spirit / tongues / etc are stell relevant for today..

    I for one, do not...
     
  2. Hobbit
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    Hobbit Senior Member

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    Why not? What's so special about the early church that they should recieve more gifts that us? What has changed between now and then?

    I'm genuinely curious. I've heard dozens of people say things like, "Oh, that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore," but I have yet to hear anyone give me a statisfying answer as to why they think it doesn't happen anymore. It's always something lame, like "Well, it just doesn't," or "We don't need to see stuff like that to believe anymore." So tell me, why do you think we of the modern age aren't blessed with the same blessings as those in the early church?
     
  3. -Cp
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    -Cp Senior Member

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    Good question, why aren't we? Jesus told the disciples "Greater things than these will you do in my name after I'm gone" - I know many pentecostals take that to mean for today as well.

    If that's the case, how many people do you know that have been raised from the dead? How many have grown a new limb, of have been healed of deafness and/or blindness?

    Again, it's not for me to defend my position - the ownus here is on you to provide scripture context as to your position of all those things being relevant for today's church...

    I don't doubt that "God is the same yesterday, today and forver", however, he obviously doesn't keep working in the same ways does he? How many plagues and pillars of fire do we read about in the New Testament compared to the Old etc?
     
  4. Eightball
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    Eightball Senior Member

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    The greatest miracle is the change in one's nature after salvation, not all the optional equipment that the Charismatics banter about as necessary equipment.

    Paul said that "love" trumps all the gifts........and if there are gifts and there's no love behind them then the person excercising those gifts is just like an empty, annoying, gonging bell.

    I think many of the gifts that are shown in TV evangelistic shows, and in many Charismatic churches are counterfeit gifts.

    Too many Christians "key in" on having a gifts, and totally miss the mark of what it is to be a "Christian".

    I think that old "Fuzzy Nose" is duping a lot of the Christians into thinking that you have to "feel" God in order to confirm your faith, instead of believing with your God-given mind despite what your emotions are communicating.

    Faith cometh by hearing(not feelings/emotions/ good-fuzzies), and hearing by the Word(scripture) of God.

    This is how the Mormons dupe so many folks into following their cult. They emphasize the good old, "burning Bosom" experience as a confirmation that Mormonism is from God or truly valid. The "burning bosom" is just a physiological, delusional, demonic, work of old "Fuzzy Nose", lead many Christians and non-Christians away from the "truth" via the bible.

    Lucifer hates faith that stands strong despite his onslaught of counter-measures through the believers mind and especially their emotions.

    Salvation is not confirmed by feelings. Many new Christians fall away from the faith because they have been discipled after their conversion into expecting a myriad of signs and wonders(a constant emotional/mental "high") as the norm of the Christian life. After the initial conversion honeymoon, they start to wonder if they were converted at all as they don't seem to feel saved, and besides that, theres still problems of life to still contend with, and it seems like the answers still not easy.

    Faith has been so "beat-up" by the evangelical church, and especially the Charismatic end of it.

    The Christian life is not an endless "skyrocket" parade. It has to meet the reality-road of life. The power of the Christian life is what the Holy Spirit does in the believer through empowering the converted one to surmount everyday struggles with an attitude that baffles the unconverted world. Faith is going against one's feelings and surrendering to what's right, regardless of the consequences. Now that's faith in action!

    The gifts were evidences in most cases in the early church to show the uncoverted world that God truly was with these new converts. Just as it is called "signs", it was a sign to a generation that God was truly with these people.

    God wants the world to focus on His Son, not gifts.......and that's where much of this movement or emphasis is not authored by Him.

    Fascination with gifts is not a sign of Spiritual maturity, but often indicates a more fleshly, or carnal mindset in a Christian. This is not said to bash, but to be of some help. I am not saying this without some knowledge and experience in my own Christian life. There was a time when my whole Christian journey seemed to hinge on whether I "felt" the presence of God/Jesus stirring in me. I had to learn a very hard but good lesson that God is faithful to me regardless of my state of mind or emotions at any moment in my life. I think that was the real beginning of my Christian growth towards some measure of maturity.
     
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  5. Hobbit
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    Hobbit Senior Member

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    You already provided it for me. Then there's the part where it's said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can order a mountain to cast itself into the sea. The only reason you don't see it happening is because you're not around those who believe it's relevant. Then, when somebody tells you about some sort of miraculous healing, such as a tumor disappearing, a cripple standing up and walking, or some other unexplainable recovery (which I've seen a few times), you dismiss it as some sort of scientific phenomenon. The truth is that it's far more common than you might think, it's just usually dismissed as some zealots calling a perfectly explainable phenomenon (which it's not) for a miracle.

    Check Revelation. It's full of that stuff. Also, the New Testament really only spans a few decades. Floods and plagues and stuff don't happen every day in the Old Testament. Also, what about Paul? A bright light from Heaven blinded him. There's also many other miracles, such as Philip catching the chariot on foot and the apostles healing cripples. Do you really think God would do so much for us and then simply abandon us to our own devices just because a few years have passed. God did miracles for thousands of years before Jesus was born and for at least several decades afterwards. Why would he simply stop?
     
  6. archangel
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    maybe modern medicine...alot of the things you listed above have been the norm...also what about space flight on and on...maybe Jesus was talking about our increase in intelligence..ie:modern miracles! :dunno:
     
  7. colehart
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    colehart Member

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    When the apostles died, instantaneous miracles ceased. I don't believe God is directly involved in healing someone from what the medical profession would call an incurable disease. If he were, what criteria would he use to decide who would be saved and who would not? God is not a respector of persons, meaning he treats all the same. There are unexplained cures, but I'm not going to try explain them other than to say, it happens! If it makes you "feel" good to say it's a miracle, then do so by all means.
     
  8. dilloduck
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    dilloduck Diamond Member

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    Very nice post. The increasing acceptance of material things as a "gift" from God or something that God would approve of coveting seems to be proof of the wayward state of some Christians. Perhaps we are very fortunate that we have NOT received the signs or omens that we deserve---but then again, maybe we have .
     
  9. -Cp
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    -Cp Senior Member

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    Beautiful! I LOVE IT! :) :clap: :clap:
     
  10. -Cp
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    -Cp Senior Member

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    I find it "odd" how many like you who claim such things ot be all undocumented cases.... Oooo wow.. his heart stopped -ever heard of CPR? Does CPR make it a miracle? I'm gonna go ahead and have to, once again, call BS on your claims of deaf/blind/limbs being healed...

    Really? How many mountains have you ever seen cast into the Sea? Are you trying to suggest that nobody since Christ has had the "faith of a mustard seed"?

    Not I - I'm just looking for DOCUMENTED cases - I can guarantee if someone was geniunly raised from the dead, it'd be HUGE news among Christians... not just a hear-say story, but one that's factually documented etc..

    Good question! Why does God always seem to change his ways of doing things? That's the million dollar question... not for us to know why - but just accept that he does...
     

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