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Does his right to peaceable assembly out-weigh their right to freely practice their religion???
If their religion includes riots and killing people I would think it does.
That said, how is he interfering with their right to practice Islam?
Does his right to peaceable assembly out-weigh their right to freely practice their religion???
If their religion includes riots and killing people I would think it does.
That said, how is he interfering with their right to practice Islam?
Depending on who you ask, only 6-10% of the Muslim community participate in terrorist-like behavior.
The same percentage of Americans describe them selves as atheists.
If you're going to hate all of Islam for 7% of the group, I get to hate all America because they're atheists.
Sounds stupid, hunh?!
What is the purpose of protest/demonstration if not to disrupt and draw attention to yourself?
I completely agree with the highlighted area, QW.If their religion includes riots and killing people I would think it does.
That said, how is he interfering with their right to practice Islam?
Depending on who you ask, only 6-10% of the Muslim community participate in terrorist-like behavior.
The same percentage of Americans describe them selves as atheists.
If you're going to hate all of Islam for 7% of the group, I get to hate all America because they're atheists.
Sounds stupid, hunh?!
What is the purpose of protest/demonstration if not to disrupt and draw attention to yourself?
When you ask them directly 1 in four younger Muslims in America think suicide bombings of civilian targets is at least occasionally justified. The experts can pontificate all day long, but the facts remain the same.
Your problem is that you think that because you cannot understand the difference between me saying that Islam is a political ideology that is bent on world domination and my ability to understand that not all Muslims believe that way you think I cannot either.
Islam needs to find a Martin Luther to speak up and tell them that the way they go about things is wrong, give the moderates a real voice, and turn Islam into a religion. That is not going to happen overnight, and might not happen in my lifetime, or yours.
That does not make me a bigot, Islamaphobic, or even incapable of seeing the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. The only Muslims I know who support terrorism post on this board, and I know more than a few of them. The really weird thing is that every single one of them agrees with my assessment of Islam.
I completely agree with the highlighted area, QW.Depending on who you ask, only 6-10% of the Muslim community participate in terrorist-like behavior.
The same percentage of Americans describe them selves as atheists.
If you're going to hate all of Islam for 7% of the group, I get to hate all America because they're atheists.
Sounds stupid, hunh?!
What is the purpose of protest/demonstration if not to disrupt and draw attention to yourself?
When you ask them directly 1 in four younger Muslims in America think suicide bombings of civilian targets is at least occasionally justified. The experts can pontificate all day long, but the facts remain the same.
Your problem is that you think that because you cannot understand the difference between me saying that Islam is a political ideology that is bent on world domination and my ability to understand that not all Muslims believe that way you think I cannot either.
Islam needs to find a Martin Luther to speak up and tell them that the way they go about things is wrong, give the moderates a real voice, and turn Islam into a religion. That is not going to happen overnight, and might not happen in my lifetime, or yours.
That does not make me a bigot, Islamaphobic, or even incapable of seeing the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. The only Muslims I know who support terrorism post on this board, and I know more than a few of them. The really weird thing is that every single one of them agrees with my assessment of Islam.
I guess that's what I am trying to do, in my small way.
Every Muslim I've ever met were all peace craving people and I think they get such a bad rap over the actions of a few.
And, no, I don't think you're anti-Muslim.
In fact I agree with most of your points. I don't know how we've managed to bump heads, so much, recently.
I completely agree with the highlighted area, QW.When you ask them directly 1 in four younger Muslims in America think suicide bombings of civilian targets is at least occasionally justified. The experts can pontificate all day long, but the facts remain the same.
Your problem is that you think that because you cannot understand the difference between me saying that Islam is a political ideology that is bent on world domination and my ability to understand that not all Muslims believe that way you think I cannot either.
Islam needs to find a Martin Luther to speak up and tell them that the way they go about things is wrong, give the moderates a real voice, and turn Islam into a religion. That is not going to happen overnight, and might not happen in my lifetime, or yours.
That does not make me a bigot, Islamaphobic, or even incapable of seeing the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. The only Muslims I know who support terrorism post on this board, and I know more than a few of them. The really weird thing is that every single one of them agrees with my assessment of Islam.
I guess that's what I am trying to do, in my small way.
Every Muslim I've ever met were all peace craving people and I think they get such a bad rap over the actions of a few.
And, no, I don't think you're anti-Muslim.
In fact I agree with most of your points. I don't know how we've managed to bump heads, so much, recently.
I tend to be very confrontational, even in person. I have friends that refuse to go to museums with me because I call the personal on things when they talk about how installing solar panels is cost effective. That is actually a big thing here in San Francisco, which makes no sense at all because the panels will fall apart before you can recoup the cost.
In other words, it is probably my fault for being a total ass that we bump heads. Combine that with the knee jerk desire to defend Islam because most Muslims in the US are actually mellow while ignoring the fact that a significant fraction of them are willing to kill, not just die, for their religion, and I tend to get incredibly hard nosed when presenting my position. A lot of people tend to take that as me hating Muslims, which is their loss. that does not really bother me, but I occasionally like to make the point that I do not actually hate Muslims.
Yeah, especially Muslims.
Yeah, especially idiot bigotted islamophobes
I haven't seen any of those murdering innocent people because they got their feelings hurt.
So I'm gonna say it's far more important that Muslims listen when these guys speak up.
Yeah, especially idiot bigotted islamophobes
I haven't seen any of those murdering innocent people because they got their feelings hurt.
So I'm gonna say it's far more important that Muslims listen when these guys speak up.
I haven't seen any american muslims or people who hate american muslims murdering innocent people.
I guess I'll hope for equal rights for both groups, call me crazy.
I completely agree with the highlighted area, QW.When you ask them directly 1 in four younger Muslims in America think suicide bombings of civilian targets is at least occasionally justified. The experts can pontificate all day long, but the facts remain the same.
Your problem is that you think that because you cannot understand the difference between me saying that Islam is a political ideology that is bent on world domination and my ability to understand that not all Muslims believe that way you think I cannot either.
Islam needs to find a Martin Luther to speak up and tell them that the way they go about things is wrong, give the moderates a real voice, and turn Islam into a religion. That is not going to happen overnight, and might not happen in my lifetime, or yours.
That does not make me a bigot, Islamaphobic, or even incapable of seeing the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. The only Muslims I know who support terrorism post on this board, and I know more than a few of them. The really weird thing is that every single one of them agrees with my assessment of Islam.
I guess that's what I am trying to do, in my small way.
Every Muslim I've ever met were all peace craving people and I think they get such a bad rap over the actions of a few.
And, no, I don't think you're anti-Muslim.
In fact I agree with most of your points. I don't know how we've managed to bump heads, so much, recently.
I tend to be very confrontational, even in person. I have friends that refuse to go to museums with me because I call the personal on things when they talk about how installing solar panels is cost effective. That is actually a big thing here in San Francisco, which makes no sense at all because the panels will fall apart before you can recoup the cost.
In other words, it is probably my fault for being a total ass that we bump heads. Combine that with the knee jerk desire to defend Islam because most Muslims in the US are actually mellow while ignoring the fact that a significant fraction of them are willing to kill, not just die, for their religion, and I tend to get incredibly hard nosed when presenting my position. A lot of people tend to take that as me hating Muslims, which is their loss. that does not really bother me, but I occasionally like to make the point that I do not actually hate Muslims.
If a person does something knowing it will get people killed (and we all agree, them killing someone because they burned a book is insane), isn't he just as guilty as the nuts who commits the murders?
We cant control them, but we can control this media whore.
Next time we have a flag burner, burning an American flag let's put it into practice what you seem to want to happen.
I completely agree with the highlighted area, QW.When you ask them directly 1 in four younger Muslims in America think suicide bombings of civilian targets is at least occasionally justified. The experts can pontificate all day long, but the facts remain the same.
Your problem is that you think that because you cannot understand the difference between me saying that Islam is a political ideology that is bent on world domination and my ability to understand that not all Muslims believe that way you think I cannot either.
Islam needs to find a Martin Luther to speak up and tell them that the way they go about things is wrong, give the moderates a real voice, and turn Islam into a religion. That is not going to happen overnight, and might not happen in my lifetime, or yours.
That does not make me a bigot, Islamaphobic, or even incapable of seeing the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. The only Muslims I know who support terrorism post on this board, and I know more than a few of them. The really weird thing is that every single one of them agrees with my assessment of Islam.
I guess that's what I am trying to do, in my small way.
Every Muslim I've ever met were all peace craving people and I think they get such a bad rap over the actions of a few.
And, no, I don't think you're anti-Muslim.
In fact I agree with most of your points. I don't know how we've managed to bump heads, so much, recently.
I tend to be very confrontational, even in person. I have friends that refuse to go to museums with me because I call the personal on things when they talk about how installing solar panels is cost effective. That is actually a big thing here in San Francisco, which makes no sense at all because the panels will fall apart before you can recoup the cost.
In other words, it is probably my fault for being a total ass that we bump heads. Combine that with the knee jerk desire to defend Islam because most Muslims in the US are actually mellow while ignoring the fact that a significant fraction of them are willing to kill, not just die, for their religion, and I tend to get incredibly hard nosed when presenting my position. A lot of people tend to take that as me hating Muslims, which is their loss. that does not really bother me, but I occasionally like to make the point that I do not actually hate Muslims.
Bigots and racists have the same rights normal thinking humans have, this seems unconstitutional.
I remember when the Nazis wanted to parade through Skokie Illinois.
The city fathers and the Jews Who lived there .
Did everything in their power to deny them the right of their freedom Of speech and right to assemble .
But that was Jews and not Muslims .
So it was okay .
The guy has the right to protest if he wants, this mosque was built on a street in between about 4 or 5 churches, I pass by it almost every day, I doubt Dearborn would have a problem if they were going to protest at one of the churches.
[UPDATED TITLE:] Terry Jones Jailed, Apparently for Refusing to Promise Not to Demonstrate in Front of a Mosque [STILL FURTHER UPDATE: Released From Jail, Ordered to Stay Away from Mosque]
Eugene Volokh April 22, 2011 7:19 pm
[Original title: Dearborn Jury Holds Terry Jones May Be Barred from Organizing Rally Outside Mosque.] So reports the Detroit Free Press:
A Dearborn jury just sided with prosecutors, ruling that Terry Jones and Wayne Sapp would breach the peace if they rallied at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn.
Judge Mark Somers will now determine the conditions of Terry Jones bond....
Strikes me as a pretty clear violation of the would-be demonstrators First Amendment rights. (See my earlier post for more on one aspect of the issue.) I hope Jones seeks prompt review from higher courts, probably under some state law mandamus procedure that could give a quick remedy within days (rather than through a direct appeal, which could take months or years); if anyone knows how these things are done under Michigan law, Id love to hear it. Ultimately, a petition for an emergency stay from the U.S. Supreme Court would be possible, but practically speaking Jones would need to go through the Michigan review process first.
UPDATE: Since I first linked to the story, theres been a huge update:
A judge late today sent two Florida pastors to jail for refusing to post a $1 bond.
The stunning development came after a Dearborn jury sided with prosecutors, ruling that Terry Jones and Wayne Sapp would breach the peace if they rallied at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn.
Prosecutors asked Judge Mark Somers for $45,000 bond. Somers then set bond at $1 each for the two pastors.
They refused to pay. And Somers ordered them remanded to jail.
Im not positive from the story, but I assume that Jones and Sapp refused to pay because part of the bond was a promise not to engage in the demonstration (and not just because they wanted to, as a matter of principle, refuse to pay even $1). Again, I assume that Jones will seek emergency review, and I expect that he will promptly win.
FURTHER UPDATE: For the ACLU of Michigans brief in the jury trial, see here; according to a commenter, a TV account reports that the ACLU will be representing Terry Jones in the review proceedings, though Jones apparently represented himself at trial.
STILL FURTHER UPDATE: The Detroit Free Press reports on a further development: Late Friday the two pastors posted their $1 bond and left jail, according to Dearborn Mayor Jack OReilly Jr. But, [a]According to the Wayne County prosecutors office, both Jones and Sapp are prohibited by the court from going to the mosque or adjacent property for three years. Again, to the extent the order bars them from picketing near the mosque (apparently for fear that the picketing might lead to people violently attacking them), that is a prior restraint that pretty clearly violates the First Amendment; I expect the order to be reversed by higher courts.
If he does get arrested, the ACLU better damn well be there to take up his case.
That's all I'm sayin...
Terry Jones, second pastor, briefly jailed after tense day
12:53 AM, Apr. 23, 2011
...If protesters intend to be peaceful and are expressing their views, the government can't make them pay in order to express their First Amendment rights, he said.And the ACLU of Michigan attacked all parties who sought to restrict Jones -- Dearborn police, prosecutors, and the district judge who oversaw the trial.
"This is a complete abuse of the court process, and all those involved should be ashamed," said Rana Elmir of the ACLU Michigan office. "The prosecutor's office and the Dearborn court turned the First Amendment on its head. What happened today should never have happened."...
I don't understand how the pseudo-cons who wholeheartedly supported President Bush who also forced protester into "Free Speech" zones could be against Dearborn for allowing this freaky pastor from Fla. to protest in one of the Free Speech Zones?
Any of the connies going to pony up and admit that they supported the Free Speech Zones when it came to protests against President Bush and the invasion of Iraq?
Doesn't matter where it is, people see an Afghan mob going crazy on tv and ransacking a UN base and beheading people, it speaks volumes, just like a few idiot Soldiers going on a killing spree in Afghanistan gives Muslims the opinion that wer just there to kill them.
I think it would say alot more about Western Muslims if it happend in Detroit and not Afghanistan. Maybe we'd like to see how the Muslims in Dearborn react to overt protest. The guy can still protest legally from the "Free Speech Zone" I guess they were left over from one of President Bushes visits????
Well I think if Muslims here tried something like this all hell would break loose, they are just a small minority here, plus I think most Muslims who live in the US know better than to get violent over something some stupid hick pastor did. The problem is, most Americans associate Muslims with what they see going on over in Iraq and Afghanistan so when they see that Afghan mob, they don't differentiate.
well the simple solution is to pass a law to say he has the right, but it has to be in a special zone 5-10 miles away from the site.
You know like the RNC and DNC have during their conventions.
The simple solution would be to tell him he is on his own. Protest all you want, say anything you want but don't expect us to defend you.
This is the type of shit you see on the playground from instigators. They pick and they pick and then hide behind the playground monitor crying. "help me, help me, he's going to hit me."
Didn't care for it on the playground, and I don't like it now.
Pastor denied permit ahead of mosque protest
It's possible Rev. Terry Jones could be arrested if he carries through with the protest Fri., says Dearborn, Mich. spokeswoman
DEARBORN, Mich. - Dearborn has denied a permit to a Florida pastor who plans to protest outside a mosque in the Michigan city.
Dearborn spokeswoman Mary Laundroche tells The Detroit News it's possible the Rev. Terry Jones could be arrested if he carries through with the protest Friday outside the Islamic Center of America. Jones has said he plans to demonstrate outside the mosque with or without a permit.
Wayne County prosecutors say they fear the protest could lead to violence, and a judge has ordered Jones to appear Thursday to answer questions about the event. Prosecutors want him to post a "peace bond" to pay for additional police officers during the demonstration.
Pastor denied permit ahead of mosque protest - CBS News
