Should the president invoke the 14th Amendment?

[Inthemiddle]

Should he abide by the Constitution and invoke the 14th Amendment? or should he let the R crash our economy as well as harm the world economy?

There is nothing for him to "invoke." All that babble is nothing but bullshit.

 

[blastoff]

Quickest way to get rid of rw's -

Post FACTS.

Great idea.

Now, how about a link to back up your assertion that Republicans want to collapse the economy, just for starters.

Thanks.

 

[Oldstyle]

Now that we ALL know that the debt ceiling is

• a manufactured crisis
• NOT a request to spend more
• an order TO the president FROM the congress to pay the bills the congress has incurred

We also know that the republicans

• want to collapse the US economy
• want to "shut down" the US government
• want to cause another credit downgrade

Today, President Obama said he would not invoke the 14th Amendment even though some on either side of the aisle are urging him to do so. Instead, he said he would wait for congress to do their job which sounded more like he was saying, let the R hang themselves.

Should he abide by the Constitution and invoke the 14th Amendment? or should he let the R crash our economy as well as harm the world economy?

Gee, how about he does what the American people would like him to and cut spending?

 

[Oldstyle]

He just got a 40 to 1 increase in taxes over spending cuts...when do the spending cuts we so obviously need take place? With this Administration, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi the answer to that question always takes place WAY down the road.

 

[Staidhup]

If Oboingo tried this stupid tactic, he would be in direct violation of the 14th Amenment, along with article 2.

The 14th Amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

As you point out the Congress must approve the increase of the national debt, furthermore, the president, nor congress has the right to with hold or suspend payments due to those possessing a valid claim for payment.

The issue of Social Security is a legal binding obligation held by those that reach the age of retirement or are eligible due to physical incapacity, under no circumstances can the president or congress expropriate, deny, or suspend payments due to those qualifying individuals.

As it was pointed out the debt owed social security by the government is legal and binding. The annual proceeds received through the collection of tax revenue must be applied toward the satisfaction of legal binding debt, thus the president nor congress can not arbitrarily suspend the obligations as outlined within the constitution nor deny payment.

What the debt ceiling provides is the vehicle to barrow additional funds to honor existing debt. The key issue is the reduction in current spending and automatic increases to reduce the expansion of debt.

We can no longer afford uncontrolled spending as the president and congress demands to satisfy their constituents and campaign promises. For those on the right and left we are beyond the cliff and now we will continue to descend into the depths of financial ruin.

You wanted your cake, now eat it!

 

[Bern80]

Now that we ALL know that the debt ceiling is

• a manufactured crisis
• NOT a request to spend more
• an order TO the president FROM the congress to pay the bills the congress has incurred

We also know that the republicans

• want to collapse the US economy
• want to "shut down" the US government
• want to cause another credit downgrade

Today, President Obama said he would not invoke the 14th Amendment even though some on either side of the aisle are urging him to do so. Instead, he said he would wait for congress to do their job which sounded more like he was saying, let the R hang themselves.

Should he abide by the Constitution and invoke the 14th Amendment? or should he let the R crash our economy as well as harm the world economy?

It appears you actually know nothing. Let's get this straight. The 'evil' Republicans who supposedly favor only the 'evil' rich people want to collapse the economy (see: the thing that makes rich people rich)? Yeah that makes sense.

What the right wants is simple. A government that is fiscally responsible. Fiscal responsibility and literacy can't be found in a Democrats dictionary. This is an issue that can no longer be compromised over as the steps neccessary at this point to truly correct the problem will have to be extreme. It certainly will hurt some, those who have become dependent on government, in the near future, but it the long term future generations will be much better off.

 

[Inthemiddle]

You really need to read Section Four of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

“... the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, . . . shall not be questioned ...”

You should read it too. Because nothing in the 14th amendment authorizes the President to unilaterally made the decision to borrow money. That's nothing but an invention of morons.

The purpose of the public debt clause was merely to constitutionally affirm that the government is responsible for the debts it has incurred. During the Civil War, the debt went up considerably, which led to concern that the government might not make good on repaying what it had been borrowed. The 14th amendment solidified the government's duty to pay back its debts. The clause further ensured that no claim could be laid to the US government for the debt of the CSA, nor any liability be claimed for damages due to the ending of slavery.

The amendment also specified that Congress would have the power to legislate as necessary to enforce the public debt clause. Clearly, this is a new power of Congress that did not exist in the originally enumerated powers. The amendment, however, says nothing of the President. If the public debt clause were meant to grant implicit powers to the government that did not previously exist, then why did the authors of the amendment take the time to explicitly grant the Congressional powers, and not the Presidential powers?

Because the "power to act" clause in regards to Congress was indeed included, then there can be no question that any power of the Presidency to act under the public debt clause must be explicitly stated in the constitution as well. Since such a grant of power to the Presidency is absent from the 14th amendment, there is simply no possibility that the President gained any new power in the passage of the amendment.

 

[PredFan]

Quickest way to get rid of rw's -

Post FACTS.

Really? Then how come you never post them?

 

[PredFan]

Luddly is a moron, we all know that. Don't bother trying to argue with him, let's all just point and laugh. It's more fun and you won't be wasting your time.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

All you rw name callers, I posted links to back what I wrote.

Are those links factual? Are they the final word on the subject?

Hell if I know. Neither do you and don't try to pretend you know more than any one of these or any other links state because you do not.

Nor are any of you blowhards more qualified that the SCOTUS to decide exactly what is "constitutional".

The links again, for those who couldn't be bothered the first time -

Debt Limit

The 14th Amendment is Obama's Best Option on Debt Ceiling - Bloomberg

The Constitutional Option: If 14th amendment were used to bypass debt ceiling, would anyone buy US debt? | AEIdeas

The Debt Ceiling And The 14th Amendment

 

[SniperFire]

Still failing, duddy.

LOL

 

[Yurt]

Are you seriously so uneducated that you think the 14th amendment has anything to do with this?

We are talking about taking more debt. Not paying current ones. No one has a problem with the government paying current debts. You see, when normal people have debts to pay off, they dont borrow more money. They cut back spending and make adjustments to their budgets (I know a budget, what a radical concept)

can luddley explain to us what the 14th Amendment has to do with debt ceiling....

 

[CaféAuLait]

Now that we ALL know that the debt ceiling is

• a manufactured crisis
• NOT a request to spend more
• an order TO the president FROM the congress to pay the bills the congress has incurred

We also know that the republicans

• want to collapse the US economy
• want to "shut down" the US government
• want to cause another credit downgrade

Today, President Obama said he would not invoke the 14th Amendment even though some on either side of the aisle are urging him to do so. Instead, he said he would wait for congress to do their job which sounded more like he was saying, let the R hang themselves.

Should he abide by the Constitution and invoke the 14th Amendment? or should he let the R crash our economy as well as harm the world economy?

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. ... I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”

— Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006

You state that republican's want to crash the economy, yet Obama fully admitted his vote AGAINST raising the ceiling in 06 was a fully political move which was bad for the country.

“That was just an example of a new Senator, you know, making what is a political vote, as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I’m the first one to acknowledge it,” Obama told ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, according to a transcript of the interview.

Obama: 2006 Debt Ceiling Vote Was Politically Motivated : Roll Call News

 

[Yurt]

All you rw name callers, I posted links to back what I wrote.

Are those links factual? Are they the final word on the subject?

Hell if I know. Neither do you and don't try to pretend you know more than any one of these or any other links state because you do not.

Nor are any of you blowhards more qualified that the SCOTUS to decide exactly what is "constitutional".

The links again, for those who couldn't be bothered the first time -

Debt Limit

The 14th Amendment is Obama's Best Option on Debt Ceiling - Bloomberg

The Constitutional Option: If 14th amendment were used to bypass debt ceiling, would anyone buy US debt? | AEIdeas

The Debt Ceiling And The 14th Amendment

the WH is absolutely correct. from your bloomberg link:

The White House continues to throw cold water on the idea, saying it doesn't believe the U.S. Constitution gives it authority to bypass Congress when it comes to issuing debt.

obama really gets this one right. not often do we have a president who shuns expanding presidential powers.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Are you seriously so uneducated that you think the 14th amendment has anything to do with this?

We are talking about taking more debt. Not paying current ones. No one has a problem with the government paying current debts. You see, when normal people have debts to pay off, they dont borrow more money. They cut back spending and make adjustments to their budgets (I know a budget, what a radical concept)

can luddley explain to us what the 14th Amendment has to do with debt ceiling....

Two posts up from yours.

Same with you other idiots.

Not that any of you have the balls to admit it.

 

[Yurt]

Are you seriously so uneducated that you think the 14th amendment has anything to do with this?

We are talking about taking more debt. Not paying current ones. No one has a problem with the government paying current debts. You see, when normal people have debts to pay off, they dont borrow more money. They cut back spending and make adjustments to their budgets (I know a budget, what a radical concept)

can luddley explain to us what the 14th Amendment has to do with debt ceiling....

Two posts up from yours.

Same with you other idiots.

Not that any of you have the balls to admit it.

so all that whining about insults...is just whiny hypocrisy.

thanks for playing. next.

 

[Yurt]

i had a post about the issue that got deleted...weird

 

[thereisnospoon]

Now that we ALL know that the debt ceiling is

• a manufactured crisis
• NOT a request to spend more
• an order TO the president FROM the congress to pay the bills the congress has incurred

We also know that the republicans

• want to collapse the US economy
• want to "shut down" the US government
• want to cause another credit downgrade

Today, President Obama said he would not invoke the 14th Amendment even though some on either side of the aisle are urging him to do so. Instead, he said he would wait for congress to do their job which sounded more like he was saying, let the R hang themselves.

Should he abide by the Constitution and invoke the 14th Amendment? or should he let the R crash our economy as well as harm the world economy?

Obama has stated categorically that the debt ceiling is not up for negotiation. He is essentially saying " I am the president of the United States God Dammit. I have powers you cannot even comprehend! And I will get what I want, do what I want and if you do not cooperate with me, I will use "the full weight of my office to get what I want"...
BTW, the 14th Amendment thing is crap. The President cannot legally do what Nancy Pelosi suggested.
Spending policy and procedure is explained in Article I Section 7 of the US Constitution.
Article I | U.S. Constitution | LII / Legal Information Institute
All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.

Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.
I have no clue what Pelosi or Obama are thinking.
In Amendment XIV Section 4 there is the issue of "Validity of debt and that said validity "shall not be questioned".
How Obama makes the leap from that to " I will unilaterally increase the debt ceiling" is a fucking mystery.Actually that's the OPPOSITE of what he has said.

And YOU have said you have no idea what he's thinking.
Obama has no respect for the law, Has no respect for the US Constitution. In fact he views the Constitution as a roadblock to his agenda.Post proof.
I think Obama is the type pf person who asks not whether something is legal or ethical. He asks whether or not he can get away with doing it, either legally ethically and above all, politically.

You rw Obama-haters keep saying crap like this but you cannot prove its true because it is not true.

If you disagree with me, post PROOF.

Ahh yes. The old fallback position. In the absence of a substantive rebuttal, lay the hate card.
Oh but it is TRUE...Obama will again be bypassing Congress on the gun issue.
He will again bypass the Congress on the debt ceiling.
He has already said he wants Congress to relinquish it's Constitutional DUTY to raise revenue and collect taxes. Obama does not recognize nor does he accept the concept of separation of powers .
Oh, it's all very well documented. Every executive order which bypassed Congress.
Teams of attorneys are just salivating at getting their day in court. Obama thinks he cannot be challenged. That his word is the final word. Not quite.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

All you rw name callers, I posted links to back what I wrote.

Are those links factual? Are they the final word on the subject?

Hell if I know. Neither do you and don't try to pretend you know more than any one of these or any other links state because you do not.

Nor are any of you blowhards more qualified that the SCOTUS to decide exactly what is "constitutional".

The links again, for those who couldn't be bothered the first time -

Debt Limit

The 14th Amendment is Obama's Best Option on Debt Ceiling - Bloomberg

The Constitutional Option: If 14th amendment were used to bypass debt ceiling, would anyone buy US debt? | AEIdeas

The Debt Ceiling And The 14th Amendment

the WH is absolutely correct. from your bloomberg link:

The White House continues to throw cold water on the idea, saying it doesn't believe the U.S. Constitution gives it authority to bypass Congress when it comes to issuing debt.

obama really gets this one right. not often do we have a president who shuns expanding presidential powers.

He has said this all along - that he would leave it to congress.

 

[Avatar4321]

Are you seriously so uneducated that you think the 14th amendment has anything to do with this?

We are talking about taking more debt. Not paying current ones. No one has a problem with the government paying current debts. You see, when normal people have debts to pay off, they dont borrow more money. They cut back spending and make adjustments to their budgets (I know a budget, what a radical concept)

You are wrong.

I really didn't know that rw's STILL don't know what the debt ceiling is.

The debt limit is the total amount of money that the United States government is authorized to borrow to meet its existing legal obligations ... The debt limit does not authorize new spending commitments. It simply allows the government to finance existing legal obligations that Congresses and presidents of both parties have made in the past.

Debt Limit

You really need to read Section Four of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

“... the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, . . . shall not be questioned ...”

There are very real risks to using the 14th amendment -

The 14th Amendment is Obama's Best Option on Debt Ceiling - Bloomberg

The Constitutional Option: If 14th amendment were used to bypass debt ceiling, would anyone buy US debt? | AEIdeas

The Debt Ceiling And The 14th Amendment

yes. It allows the government to borrow more money. You are making my point. We dont need to borrow more money. We need to pay it off.