Should medical personnel be able to refuse to do their job based on religious beliefs

[Immanuel]

Then she should give it up for adoption. Silly SB.

I think you were serious about that, right?

I get the impression you are angry with me, when all I said was that she can and should find a provider that believes as she does.

I have no idea why you seem to be angry with me about that. In fact, I feel as if I have done something elsewhere to anger you and you are expressing that anger here.

Don't know what I did, but, I am certain I deserve the anger. Therefore, I offer my sincere apologies.

Immie

No, it was right here. I was fine with you until you announced that what happened to that young lady was fine, and the fetus was more important than anything else.

Even when there wasn't a FETUS!!! It outranked her.

Maybe you need to put on your reading glasses?

No where did I say that.

Why do you believe you have the right to force your suppliers to do anything at all.

Do you think you have the right to insist that your garbage man go into your back yard and clean up the dog shit in your back yard?

Do you have the right to insist that the company that changes the oil in your car also provides new brakes for you even though they are not qualified to do so? Or maybe they are, but that is not the line of work they offer?

You have no right to force a medical provider to do anything they are uncomfortable doing.

Should a John be able to insist that a prostitute perform anal sex if she says that is the one thing she will not do? Note: I saw that on an episode of Law and Order or something along those lines. Should the John have that right? If not, what gives you the right to insist that a medical professional perform what he or she considers an abortion?

I'm sorry, you are just plain wrong in this.

Immie

 

[Peach]

then we need warning signs on the way in...dont we? the person on duty is not gonna treat a rape victim as a victim but as someone to be shamed...

What? Like a flashing Neon banner? Call the doctor in advance and give the nature of the problem. Rape has to be a really hard thing and I wish it on no one, but are we writing a manual on how to live or whether or not individuals should have liberty?

One's place of employment, particularly in this field, is not a venue for 'self expression'.

 

[sealybobo]

Remember how Reagan passed that law that said hospitals had to treat people for life threatening injuries regardless of their ability to pay? Well wouldn't republicans, Ron Paul and Citizens United say that corporations are people and so you can't force a person to do business with someone who can't pay so why make hospitals? Wouldn't they say that law is unconstitutional? Yes they would, because they are fucking stupid.

Uh, no.

How am I wrong? You guys said Catholic Hospitals shouldn't have to cover contraception because of their religious beliefs. I didn't know hospitals had such religious beliefs?

And Citizens United and Romney said Corporations are people. No?

And the tea party and ron Paul say its unconstitutional or socialism when we try to nationalize or regulate the oil and healthcare companies, don't they?

And I'm sure the right wingers back in Reagan's day made these very arguments. AND, the tea baggers make Reagan look like Carter, don't they? He wouldn't even get the nomination if he ran today. Be honest.

I bet you the GOP today and the healthcare giants today would love to undo that law Reagan passed.

 

[Moonglow]

nooooooo the first vow is do no harm....

come on.....how far will you go on this slippery slope?

if the continues...medical schools will stop accepting people who profess this stuff...i hope....

if you are not willing to be of total help to your patients dont become a doctor....simple as that

Said medical professionals are protecting all lives presented to them rather than destroying one for the selfish reasons of the other.

Immie

U going to raise all rape victims children they don't want?

 

[Immanuel]

then we need warning signs on the way in...dont we? the person on duty is not gonna treat a rape victim as a victim but as someone to be shamed...

What? Like a flashing Neon banner? Call the doctor in advance and give the nature of the problem. Rape has to be a really hard thing and I wish it on no one, but are we writing a manual on how to live or whether or not individuals should have liberty?

One's place of employment, particularly in this field, is not a venue for 'self expression'.

Then if the employee is not performing up to standards, it is the perrogative of the employer to lay down the law, not the patient.

If the employer feels that the provider is not up to standards then the employer has the right to change that even to the degree of relieving the employee of his or her status, but that is the employers decision and no one else's.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

nooooooo the first vow is do no harm....

come on.....how far will you go on this slippery slope?

if the continues...medical schools will stop accepting people who profess this stuff...i hope....

if you are not willing to be of total help to your patients dont become a doctor....simple as that

Said medical professionals are protecting all lives presented to them rather than destroying one for the selfish reasons of the other.

Immie

U going to raise all rape victims children they don't want?

Show me where I stated that the victim should not be able to get either emergency contraception or an abortion?

Good luck!

Immie

 

[BDBoop]

Next thing you will want them to be forced to do is perform abortions even if they are opposed to the killing of children. And soon after that will be requiring them to kill the aged whose grand children want them exterminated so that they get their inheritance early, you know... euthanasia. And then when that envelope has been pushed to its extreme you will require them to participate in eugenics to bring about blue-eyed, blond haired babies and nothing but blue-eyed, blond haired babies.

Yes, medical professionals should be able to put down their feet when it comes to questions of ethics.

Immie

nooooooo the first vow is do no harm....

come on.....how far will you go on this slippery slope?

if the continues...medical schools will stop accepting people who profess this stuff...i hope....

if you are not willing to be of total help to your patients dont become a doctor....simple as that

Said medical professionals are protecting all lives presented to them rather than destroying one for the selfish reasons of the other.

Immie

contraception is destruction of live.....she is asking for a contraceptive that prevents the egg from being implanted....are eggs alone life?

if so how do you feel about the millions of sperm you waste masturbating?

and dont deny it...we all do it....

Except it is not an egg alone that is the problem nor is a solitary egg what the potential mother cares about destroying, it is the fertilized egg that she is out to destroy. You cannot deny that. If it were an egg by itself, she would have nothing to fear and no need for "emergency contraception".

Immie

Said medical professionals are protecting all lives presented to them rather than destroying one for the selfish reasons of the other.

Immie

U going to raise all rape victims children they don't want?

Show me where I stated that the victim should not be able to get either emergency contraception or an abortion?

Good luck!

Immie

You're welcome.

 

[Immanuel]

Next thing you will want them to be forced to do is perform abortions even if they are opposed to the killing of children. And soon after that will be requiring them to kill the aged whose grand children want them exterminated so that they get their inheritance early, you know... euthanasia. And then when that envelope has been pushed to its extreme you will require them to participate in eugenics to bring about blue-eyed, blond haired babies and nothing but blue-eyed, blond haired babies.

Yes, medical professionals should be able to put down their feet when it comes to questions of ethics.

Immie

Said medical professionals are protecting all lives presented to them rather than destroying one for the selfish reasons of the other.

Immie

U going to raise all rape victims children they don't want?

Show me where I stated that the victim should not be able to get either emergency contraception or an abortion?

Good luck!

Immie

You're welcome.

You do not appear to be using your reading comprehension skills tonight.

Sorry, I know you are not stupid, so you must be selectively chosing to believe things that are not being said.

Not one of those quotes states that the victim does not have the right to receive those services. They only state that she does not have the right to force "me", if I were a medical provider, to perform those duties for her... and she does not.

Who died and made you god?

Immie

 

[BDBoop]

Next thing you will want them to be forced to do is perform abortions even if they are opposed to the killing of children. And soon after that will be requiring them to kill the aged whose grand children want them exterminated so that they get their inheritance early, you know... euthanasia. And then when that envelope has been pushed to its extreme you will require them to participate in eugenics to bring about blue-eyed, blond haired babies and nothing but blue-eyed, blond haired babies.

Yes, medical professionals should be able to put down their feet when it comes to questions of ethics.

Immie

Show me where I stated that the victim should not be able to get either emergency contraception or an abortion?

Good luck!

Immie

You're welcome.

You do not appear to be using your reading comprehension skills tonight.

Sorry, I know you are not stupid, so you must be selectively chosing to believe things that are not being said.

Not one of those quotes states that the victim does not have the right to receive those services. They only state that she does not have the right to force "me", if I were a medical provider, to perform those duties for her... and she does not.

Who died and made you god?

Immie

Thank God you're not a health professional.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Yes. I dont agree with it, but people who perform services should have the right to refuse them to anyone for any reason. That's what liberty and freedom are about; choices.

That's right! Screw them white people! And the Latinos too! And the blacks!

LOL! OMG I am so glad I don't live in Liberteria!

 

[Immanuel]

You're welcome.

You do not appear to be using your reading comprehension skills tonight.

Sorry, I know you are not stupid, so you must be selectively chosing to believe things that are not being said.

Not one of those quotes states that the victim does not have the right to receive those services. They only state that she does not have the right to force "me", if I were a medical provider, to perform those duties for her... and she does not.

Who died and made you god?

Immie

Thank God you're not a health professional.

Thank God you are not God.

So, what gives you the right to force your garbage man to go into your back yard and clean up your dog shit?

Immie

 

[Amelia]

then we need warning signs on the way in...dont we? the person on duty is not gonna treat a rape victim as a victim but as someone to be shamed...

Yes, definitely need warning signs.

Rape victims should definitely be warned about which doctors are going to make things harder for them.

And doctors should let pregnant women know in advance if they're the kind who would lie to you or withhold information from you because they suspect the information might lead you to choose abortion.

Except doctors who would manipulate you by withholding information might want to withhold that particular information about themselves too.

But still, patients ought to be warned.

 

[BDBoop]

then we need warning signs on the way in...dont we? the person on duty is not gonna treat a rape victim as a victim but as someone to be shamed...

Yes, definitely need warning signs.

Rape victims should definitely be warned about which doctors are going to make things harder for them.

And doctors should let pregnant women know in advance if they're the kind who would lie to you or withhold information from you because they suspect the information might lead you to choose abortion.

Except doctors who would manipulate you by withholding information might want to withhold that particular information about themselves too.

But still, patients ought to be warned.

That's what it's come down to.

 

[Immanuel]

then we need warning signs on the way in...dont we? the person on duty is not gonna treat a rape victim as a victim but as someone to be shamed...

Yes, definitely need warning signs.

Rape victims should definitely be warned about which doctors are going to make things harder for them.

And doctors should let pregnant women know in advance if they're the kind who would lie to you or withhold information from you because they suspect the information might lead you to choose abortion.

Except doctors who would manipulate you by withholding information might want to withhold that particular information about themselves too.

But still, patients ought to be warned.

That's what it's come down to.

No, what it boils down to is that you believe you have the right to demand services that others do not wish to provide.

You believe that you have the right to force a medical provider to provide a service that he or she has an ethical reason for not wanting to provide.

You must also believe that you have the right to force your garbage man to enter your backyard and clean up the dog shit that you don't want to clean up. After all... he is your servant.

You didn't answer my question about the John and the prostitute who refuses to perform anal sex. Does he have the right to demand she perform that service for him? Under your system he most certainly does.

BTW: I never said, I would not perform any service. If I were a medical provider, I would not perform abortions. Not in a million years. I'm up in the air on emergency contraception. Obviously, you believe you would have the right to force me to perform an abortion for you. You do not respect my right to choose who my patients are or my right to tell you that I will not be your doctor.

That makes you the evil person, not me. Edit: anyone who believe they have the right to enslave others is evil IMHO.

Immie

 

[Amelia]

Yes, definitely need warning signs.

Rape victims should definitely be warned about which doctors are going to make things harder for them.

And doctors should let pregnant women know in advance if they're the kind who would lie to you or withhold information from you because they suspect the information might lead you to choose abortion.

Except doctors who would manipulate you by withholding information might want to withhold that particular information about themselves too.

But still, patients ought to be warned.

That's what it's come down to.

No, what it boils down to is that you believe you have the right to demand services that others do not wish to provide.

You believe that you have the right to force a medical provider to provide a service that he or she has an ethical reason for not wanting to provide.

You must also believe that you have the right to force your garbage man to enter your backyard and clean up the dog shit that you don't want to clean up. After all... he is your servant.

You didn't answer my question about the John and the prostitute who refuses to perform anal sex. Does he have the right to demand she perform that service for him? Under your system he most certainly does.

BTW: I never said, I would not perform any service. If I were a medical provider, I would not perform abortions. Not in a million years. I'm up in the air on emergency contraception. Obviously, you believe you would have the right to force me to perform an abortion for you. You do not respect my right to choose who my patients are or my right to tell you that I will not be your doctor.

That makes you the evil person, not me.

Immie

No, that is not what it boils down to.

If the doctor has a right not to offer someone legal treatments then it boils down to the need for patients to be informed about which doctors they need to seek out to get the treatment they feel they need.

I'm certainly not talking about forcing the doctor, not demanding that anyone violate their conscience, but if a doctor is going to choose to invoke a conscience exemption, then patients should be informed of this so that they can get treatments in a timely manner.

 

[syrenn]

Yes, definitely need warning signs.

Rape victims should definitely be warned about which doctors are going to make things harder for them.

And doctors should let pregnant women know in advance if they're the kind who would lie to you or withhold information from you because they suspect the information might lead you to choose abortion.

Except doctors who would manipulate you by withholding information might want to withhold that particular information about themselves too.

But still, patients ought to be warned.

That's what it's come down to.

No, what it boils down to is that you believe you have the right to demand services that others do not wish to provide.

You believe that you have the right to force a medical provider to provide a service that he or she has an ethical reason for not wanting to provide.

You must also believe that you have the right to force your garbage man to enter your backyard and clean up the dog shit that you don't want to clean up. After all... he is your servant.

You didn't answer my question about the John and the prostitute who refuses to perform anal sex. Does he have the right to demand she perform that service for him? Under your system he most certainly does.

BTW: I never said, I would not perform any service. If I were a medical provider, I would not perform abortions. Not in a million years. I'm up in the air on emergency contraception. Obviously, you believe you would have the right to force me to perform an abortion for you. You do not respect my right to choose who my patients are or my right to tell you that I will not be your doctor.

That makes you the evil person, not me. Edit: anyone who believe they have the right to enslave others is evil IMHO.

Immie

To the bolded:
Unless they are working in private practice....by themselves and for themselves..... you are not asking them to do anything other then the job they were hired for. You are demanding the service that the hospital is providing..... the services you are paying for.


As for the garbage man.... he is not there to pick up dog poo. He is paid to pick up your garbage cans. If for some reason you garbage cans are in your yard... they should go back and get them.....

The prostitute is in more or less private practice.... she has the right to say what she will do and not do...and for how much.

 

[IndependntLogic]

So I've goofed around on this thread a bit but seriously, I don't see how this can be okay. Think about it. Where does it stop?
A paramedic lets someone die because they are black or gay - or rich?
We go back to white only restaurants?
Firemen let houses burn.
Police let crimes happen.
The was a government funded hospital paid to provide a public service to the analogy with the firmen and police stand their ground.
Now I realize that Libertarians have the view anyone should be able to do anything they want but this doctor was paid to provide a public service and failed to do so.
I would still have a problem with say a pharmacist or whatever doing this but definitely not as much. This is no different than a Muslim fireman letting a house burn because it belongs to Christians.

 

[Artevelde]

News9.com Videos - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Refusing to give a post-rape contraceptive based on religion? I think that lady needs a new job.

I see you don't believe in freedom of conscience.

 

[Greenbeard]

Firemen let houses burn.

Maybe it's an abortion clinic burning down!

 

[Katzndogz]

The hospital should be ready to assign someone to that job that does not have a religious prohibition not demand that someone violate their religious beliefs. It's called a reasonable accommodation and they must do it every day for various reasons.

How many cops let someone go, or judges that dismiss charges because they have a personal opinion that drug laws are unjust? Every day. But this is okay. That cop, that judge, is heroic. Standing up for freedom.

Where does it stop? That's a good question. If someone refuses to give a fatal dose to a patient because the public opinion is that they are too old to be suitably productive, is that okay? If someone has a religous prohibition against providing post rape contraception they may need to be in a different department, not lose their jobs because of what comes down to their political opinions. If we respect religious belief, next thing white only restaurants! No. What we are doing is moving headlong into Mengele territory.

The goal is to make religious belief so painful, so worthy of punishment that people will just not have them anymore. Conscience and integrity have to be beaten out. If a person is cursed by these afflictions, hide them or suffer the consequences.