Should America Bid Farewell to Exceptional Freedom?

[Politifiend]

Obama may or may not go down as one of our best presidents, but he's already beat the chaps off Dubya!

 

[MaggieMae]

Big Goverment, especially when it is getting bigger, is a problem no matter what party is the majority.

In addition to outright fraud, the moral hazard of aggregating Other People's money makes the system itself corrupt due to deal making that is legal, but unseemly.

I've been saying for years, advocated it here many times, get rid of the corporate lobbyists and there would be marked improvement. When House members spend more than three-quarters of their time fund-raising to get reelected and paying more attention to lobbyists who can donate, and only one-quarter doing the business of the country, there's no way in hell the system won't be corrupted.

 

[boedicca]

You are focused too far down stream. Unless we narrow the scope of government and reduce the amount of MONEY it has at its disposal, there will be lobbyists, or the same function performed under a different label. When government has intrusive effects upon people's lives and businesses, they will seek a way to try to influence outcomes.

Getting rid of lobbying won't get rid of how much time incumbents spend on re-election.

 

[MaggieMae]

You mean mob mentality like we saw at town hall meetings last summer and are being repeated again, to a lesser extent thank you, this week? You have your "collective will" (i.e., group think), and we have ours. Amazing how that works, eh?

The Town Halls were forums for people to let their elected representatives know how their opinions on issues that affect them. They did not overturn the rule of law. Congress took care of that all on their own with the horrible process they used to pass this legislation despite widespread unpopularity.

You have a selective memory. Yes, town hall meetings ARE for that purpose and I've attended many in my time. But last summer brought out MOBS, who did not even give speakers a chance to make a point or respond before they were shouted down.

 

[boedicca]

And there were representatives who flat out refused to meet with constituents. Barbara Lee in Oakland would only meet with astroturfed Organizing for Obama people.

What violence was done at Town Hall meetings? Where were the riots? Raised voices because people are angry with the disdain their representatives show them is reasonable. The people have a right to be angry - it is a perfectly valid emotion when one's elected representative acts completely contrary to the constituents' interests.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Obama may or may not go down as one of our best presidents, but he's already beat the chaps off Dubya!

Only if spending too much money is seen as being a success.

 

[Meister]

Ahhhh, I remember the mobs that were against the last administration. Hanging ol GW in effigy, the painting of a hitler mustache on him, Lined up on the Crawford Tx. roads with the signs, screaming and shouting. Wow the times have changed since then.

 

[MaggieMae]

You are focused too far down stream. Unless we narrow the scope of government and reduce the amount of MONEY it has at its disposal, there will be lobbyists, or the same function performed under a different label. When government has intrusive effects upon people's lives and businesses, they will seek a way to try to influence outcomes.

Getting rid of lobbying won't get rid of how much time incumbents spend on re-election.

If real campaign reform outlawed lobbying period, it's quite possible many congresspeople would chose not to run again anyway. And if the lobbyists weren't spending time and money wooing for or against some social/domestic issue that you would like to see removed, they most assuredly have other K Street talent available to woo for or against those programs you wouldn't dream of having removed. IT'S WHAT THEY DO!

 

[MaggieMae]

And there were representatives who flat out refused to meet with constituents. Barbara Lee in Oakland would only meet with astroturfed Organizing for Obama people.

What violence was done at Town Hall meetings? Where were the riots? Raised voices because people are angry with the disdain their representatives show them is reasonable. The people have a right to be angry - it is a perfectly valid emotion when one's elected representative acts completely contrary to the constituents' interests.

The hell they were "reasonable." Did they want answers or not? In many cases, no one could even hear over all the shouting, and anyone attending with a valid question AND WANTING AN ANSWER couldn't get it. Those attendees who disrupted town hall meetings acted like barbarians. Own up to it.

 

[MaggieMae]

Ahhhh, I remember the mobs that were against the last administration. Hanging ol GW in effigy, the painting of a hitler mustache on him, Lined up on the Crawford Tx. roads with the signs, screaming and shouting. Wow the times have changed since then.

Day in and day out? Cindy Sheehan wasn't violent. The Pinks weren't violent. And, by the way, they disgusted me too whenever they showed up for some congressional hearing. BUT, with few exceptions, when they were removed, they didn't create chaos in the room.

Since 2000, the number of hate groups has increased by over 50% and most of those are not anti-war groups, but anti-government groups. What I find intriguing is that some actually claim to be strict Constitutionalists, yet subversion against the United States Government is the only crime (treason) defined in the Constitution itself.

 

[boedicca]

The hell they were "reasonable." Did they want answers or not? In many cases, no one could even hear over all the shouting, and anyone attending with a valid question AND WANTING AN ANSWER couldn't get it. Those attendees who disrupted town hall meetings acted like barbarians. Own up to it.

Yes they were reasonable, with a few exceptions. Their elected representatives did not address their concerns - and kept feeding them scripted talking points instead of answering questions. They did not act like barbarians, unless you view free speech as the hallmark of a barbarian.

Where was the rioting? Where were the pies (or worse) thrown at speakers? Where was the looting?

You find any - and such things are quite common at leftwing protests (i.e., 2003 antiwar protests in San Francisco and Berkely, Rodney King Riots, David Horowitz speeches on university campuses...)

 

[boedicca]

If real campaign reform outlawed lobbying period, it's quite possible many congresspeople would chose not to run again anyway. And if the lobbyists weren't spending time and money wooing for or against some social/domestic issue that you would like to see removed, they most assuredly have other K Street talent available to woo for or against those programs you wouldn't dream of having removed. IT'S WHAT THEY DO!

You don't get. That much money will involve lobbying, no matter what it's called.

 

[Meister]

Ahhhh, I remember the mobs that were against the last administration. Hanging ol GW in effigy, the painting of a hitler mustache on him, Lined up on the Crawford Tx. roads with the signs, screaming and shouting. Wow the times have changed since then.

Day in and day out? Cindy Sheehan wasn't violent. The Pinks weren't violent. And, by the way, they disgusted me too whenever they showed up for some congressional hearing. BUT, with few exceptions, when they were removed, they didn't create chaos in the room.

Since 2000, the number of hate groups has increased by over 50% and most of those are not anti-war groups, but anti-government groups. What I find intriguing is that some actually claim to be strict Constitutionalists, yet subversion against the United States Government is the only crime (treason) defined in the Constitution itself.

Day in-day out? I don't see that today, and I don't see any violence...how many have been arrested, Maggie. Did you see the Pinks try to arrest Rove the other evening....they disrupted the entire booK signing. If the politican doesn't want to hear angry constituants, he/she shouldn't have town hall meetings, there is where he can actually hear the voice of the voters.
Anti government groups? perhaps there are citizens from each side that don't like the direction the country is going. I sure don't like it, and have voiced it to my Congressman. I know you think that the only ones that commited treason are from the right, and I won't respond to that. Because if there is treason, it's coming from our own government, Maggie.

 

[MaggieMae]

The hell they were "reasonable." Did they want answers or not? In many cases, no one could even hear over all the shouting, and anyone attending with a valid question AND WANTING AN ANSWER couldn't get it. Those attendees who disrupted town hall meetings acted like barbarians. Own up to it.

Yes they were reasonable, with a few exceptions. Their elected representatives did not address their concerns - and kept feeding them scripted talking points instead of answering questions. They did not act like barbarians, unless you view free speech as the hallmark of a barbarian.

Where was the rioting? Where were the pies (or worse) thrown at speakers? Where was the looting?

You find any - and such things are quite common at leftwing protests (i.e., 2003 antiwar protests in San Francisco and Berkely, Rodney King Riots, David Horowitz speeches on university campuses...)

Or for god's sake, last summer's town hall meetings were a disaster by clueless people creating chaos. You continue to play the tit-for-tat game, and it won't fly.

 

[MaggieMae]

If real campaign reform outlawed lobbying period, it's quite possible many congresspeople would chose not to run again anyway. And if the lobbyists weren't spending time and money wooing for or against some social/domestic issue that you would like to see removed, they most assuredly have other K Street talent available to woo for or against those programs you wouldn't dream of having removed. IT'S WHAT THEY DO!

You don't get. That much money will involve lobbying, no matter what it's called.

And you don't get what I said. How much lobbying goes into defense projects? I'll bet you would never want the DoD to reduce its budget, even though it is the only unauditable department in government and wastes billions on an annual basis. How much booty has been spent by lobbying for clients wanting defense contracts? Both Republicans AND Democrats have become millionnaires by deep pockets at the behest of those lobbyists, and a few are actually doing time because of it.

 

[antagon]

You are focused too far down stream. Unless we narrow the scope of government and reduce the amount of MONEY it has at its disposal, there will be lobbyists, or the same function performed under a different label. When government has intrusive effects upon people's lives and businesses, they will seek a way to try to influence outcomes.

Getting rid of lobbying won't get rid of how much time incumbents spend on re-election.

If real campaign reform outlawed lobbying period, it's quite possible many congresspeople would chose not to run again anyway. And if the lobbyists weren't spending time and money wooing for or against some social/domestic issue that you would like to see removed, they most assuredly have other K Street talent available to woo for or against those programs you wouldn't dream of having removed. IT'S WHAT THEY DO!

you cant eliminate lobbying, maggie. it is an important part of democracy, even if it isnt popular.

 

[boedicca]

Or for god's sake, last summer's town hall meetings were a disaster by clueless people creating chaos. You continue to play the tit-for-tat game, and it won't fly.

Finally a point of agreement.

The Town Halls were a disaster - just not in the way you define such.

They were a disaster for Democrats who were finally outed as being completely disdainful of their constituents.

 

[MaggieMae]

Ahhhh, I remember the mobs that were against the last administration. Hanging ol GW in effigy, the painting of a hitler mustache on him, Lined up on the Crawford Tx. roads with the signs, screaming and shouting. Wow the times have changed since then.

Day in and day out? Cindy Sheehan wasn't violent. The Pinks weren't violent. And, by the way, they disgusted me too whenever they showed up for some congressional hearing. BUT, with few exceptions, when they were removed, they didn't create chaos in the room.

Since 2000, the number of hate groups has increased by over 50% and most of those are not anti-war groups, but anti-government groups. What I find intriguing is that some actually claim to be strict Constitutionalists, yet subversion against the United States Government is the only crime (treason) defined in the Constitution itself.

Day in-day out? I don't see that today, and I don't see any violence...how many have been arrested, Maggie. Did you see the Pinks try to arrest Rove the other evening....they disrupted the entire booK signing. If the politican doesn't want to hear angry constituants, he/she shouldn't have town hall meetings, there is where he can actually hear the voice of the voters.
Anti government groups? perhaps there are citizens from each side that don't like the direction the country is going. I sure don't like it, and have voiced it to my Congressman. I know you think that the only ones that commited treason are from the right, and I won't respond to that. Because if there is treason, it's coming from our own government, Maggie.

I just think that formation of militia groups at the rate we've seen in the last year is a very, very dangerous thing. They attract the least intelligent among the citizenry into its fold which ultimately has the potential to become bloody. This country has always been the beacon for dealing with major problems in a nonviolent way, and I for one am frightened for what could happen when someone in a high-profile position actually gets killed.

 

[Meister]

Day in and day out? Cindy Sheehan wasn't violent. The Pinks weren't violent. And, by the way, they disgusted me too whenever they showed up for some congressional hearing. BUT, with few exceptions, when they were removed, they didn't create chaos in the room.

Since 2000, the number of hate groups has increased by over 50% and most of those are not anti-war groups, but anti-government groups. What I find intriguing is that some actually claim to be strict Constitutionalists, yet subversion against the United States Government is the only crime (treason) defined in the Constitution itself.

Day in-day out? I don't see that today, and I don't see any violence...how many have been arrested, Maggie. Did you see the Pinks try to arrest Rove the other evening....they disrupted the entire booK signing. If the politican doesn't want to hear angry constituants, he/she shouldn't have town hall meetings, there is where he can actually hear the voice of the voters.
Anti government groups? perhaps there are citizens from each side that don't like the direction the country is going. I sure don't like it, and have voiced it to my Congressman. I know you think that the only ones that commited treason are from the right, and I won't respond to that. Because if there is treason, it's coming from our own government, Maggie.

I just think that formation of militia groups at the rate we've seen in the last year is a very, very dangerous thing. They attract the least intelligent among the citizenry into its fold which ultimately has the potential to become bloody. This country has always been the beacon for dealing with major problems in a nonviolent way, and I for one am frightened for what could happen when someone in a high-profile position actually gets killed.

I couldn't agree with you more, Maggie. The militia groups are anarchists that are neither right nor or they left. Republicans, Independents, and Democrats do not condone them.

 

[boedicca]

I just think that formation of militia groups at the rate we've seen in the last year is a very, very dangerous thing. They attract the least intelligent among the citizenry into its fold which ultimately has the potential to become bloody. This country has always been the beacon for dealing with major problems in a nonviolent way, and I for one am frightened for what could happen when someone in a high-profile position actually gets killed.

Militia groups are a far fringe movement, and a tiny minority of the population. Nobody supports them except the members themselves.