Senate Defies Veto Threat

If the Senate Democrats passed a bill approving funds for the troops, and attached an amendment saying Bush also had to set off a nuclear bomb over New York City if the bill passed, would it be Bush who is "defunding the troops" when he vetoes it?

Your comparison is absurd as the Senate and House who represents a cross section of the American people would never attach an amendment to set off a nuclear bomb over New York City and it would almost be impossible for them to do so as they would have to get 269 people who represents such a broad base of Americans to agree with it. On the other hand Bush being one man is likely to be insane enough to do so and would be able to because there isn't anyone to check him like in Congress where you need to obtain a majority of the vote for something to pass. While it is very unlikely that 269 men and women would decide to nuke New York City it is far more likely that one man would decide to do so. It is this comparison that 269 members of Congress would desire to nuke New York City while the President as a benign leader would never think of doing any such thing and that is truly absurd. While Congress does not have the authority of conducting the every day activity of the military they do have the constitutional authority to set U.S. policy even in terms of the military.

These words, "all legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives" seem to mean nothing to Bush. He doesn't seem to care that it is Congress who shall, "have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." He also fails to understand that Congress shall, "make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces." Anyone who understands how the terms government and regulation were used at the time of the drafting of the Constitution would be aware that regulation was referring to the deployment of troops as opposed to the government of the troops.

This power to regulate the troops was seen as the power to declare war and to define how that war would be fought as the distinction was being made between the role of a King and a President. The former having the power to determine how to fight the war and the latter having the power to direct those forces as directed by Congress. The President as Commander in Chief would essentially be "the General in Chief or Admiral in Chief" of the Army and Navy and of the militia when Congress has called them into the actual service of the United States but he would not set policy.

The only real question here is, will the Dems find enough Useful Idiots among their constitutents to believe it wasn't their own act that defunded the troops, or not.

The Congress sets U.S. policy because this is a republic and not a monarchy. Congress has passed funding for the military and continues to do so. If the President vetoes the action of Congress because it puts conditions on the use of those funds than it is he is refusing to fund the war and he will have to wait for Congress to again pass legislation in this regard but I doubt very much that Congress is simply going to acquiesce to allowing Mr. Bush to set U.S. policy.

The President does not originate legislation but either vetoes acts of Congress or he accepts them as is. The Congress won't be refusing to fund the Iraq war instead it will be the President who does so by vetoing Congress in its fulfillment of its constitutional responsibility to determine funding and to set U.S. policy. Congress isn't defying the President in the fulfillment of his constitutional duties instead it would be the President who is defying Congress in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities.

It is obvious that the President does not set policy as Commander in Chief and it wasn't until recently that the Presidency has sought to obtain this power to themselves. Regardless of what happens it will always come back to Congress to determine funding and to set U.S. policy. If the President vetoes the act of Congress than he will still have to wait for them to perform their duty by passing another act yet at the end of the day it will be he who is abusing the power of the veto by attempting to prevent Congress from fulfilling its responsibilities.
 
The President has to veto this bill. its unconstitutional.

The Democrats have demonstrated that pork is more important than the lives of the troops and winning the war.

A veto would be unconstitutional and it would place the Officers and Enlisted personnel of the United States in harms way. While the President has the constitutional authority to veto an act of Congress when he uses the power of veto to obstruct the Congress in setting U.S. policy so that he can do so he has violated the rights of the American people and of our representatives.
 
Yeah, unconstitutional will be when the House tried to bring Articles of Impeachment against the President for exercising his right to veto legislation he disagrees with.

Actually, that is the very purpose of the power of impeachment as the crime being committed is a political crime against the American people and their representatives. It is the power to impeach a President who consistently obstructs the Congress in performing its Constitutional duties and who exceeds his authority and attempts to interfere with the role and authority of Congress.
 
Please cite the portion of the Constitution you believe this bill offends.

And, I know you want a Kingdom where the King decides matters of law... but if it's unconstitutional isn't that the job of the Supreme Court to determine whether it is? Since when did the President get the Constitutional charge to determine if laws are unconstitutional? He has one role here. Sign or don't sign. He does not have the Constitutional decision to fund or defund the military... that's the Congress' Constitutional charge.

Why won't President Bush approve $100 billion for our fighting warriors in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Because he is a traitor who doesn't care about our troops. It is sad that this guy has been so willing to betray the American people, our representatives, and our soldiers. If he vetoes this bill he will be doing so to a) prevent Congress from funding the military, and b) to prevent Congress from setting U.S. policy. Both of these are inappropriate uses of the veto.
 
Actually, that is the very purpose of the power of impeachment as the crime being committed is a political crime against the American people and their representatives. It is the power to impeach a President who consistently obstructs the Congress in performing its Constitutional duties and who exceeds his authority and attempts to interfere with the role and authority of Congress.

LMAO. How old are you? Vetoing a bill isn't obstructing Congress nor is it interfering with the role and authority of Congress. It's his duty to approve the budget that Congress puts forth.

Article I Section 7 of the Constitution:

"All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States: If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill."
 
LMAO. How old are you? Vetoing a bill isn't obstructing Congress nor is it interfering with the role and authority of Congress. It's his duty to approve the budget that Congress puts forth.

Tell that to Alexander Hamilton: "The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offences which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or in other words from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties, more or less friendly, or inimical, to the accused." Not only is obstructing Congress an impeachable offense but the Andrew Johnson impeachment was a specific incident where the offenses be alleged were those of obstructing Congress. My question to you is, "have you ever read anything other than a Republican talking point or are you just ignorant of what the Constitution says and don't know what the Founding Fathers have said, and what the Constitution provides in this respect..." Are you going to answer by saying, "no, my High School government class was taught by none other than George W. Bush so I must know what I am talking about..."

Article I Section 7 of the Constitution...

Anyone including George W. Bush can copy and paste portions of the Constitution but the fact is that you both fail to understand the basic tenants of the Constitutional separation of powers and checks and balances. Two-thirds of Congress can over-ride a Presidential veto but if that fails than they have another option of impeaching him for obstruction of Congress and failure to perform his Constitutional duties.

The power of veto was never intended to be used to obstruct Congress and that is why the Founding Fathers included provisions allowing Congress to impeach the President. It is the ultimate Congressional veto of the Presidential veto so to speak. If the President consistently obstructs the will of Congress on a matter than they are left with either surrendering the will of the people to him and allowing him to govern de facto or to impeach him (i.e., he is telling Congress to pass legislation that he wants or he is going to continue to veto it). I suggest you read the Constitution and try reading the Federalist Papers and other founding documents such as the anti-federalist papers and the writings of our Founding Fathers and you may learn something, because it is obvious your understanding of the Constitution is that of a High School graduate who hasn't read it or studied it in any depth other than to cut and paste it from a website. I suspect that is what Mr. Bush does too.
 
Oh wow.. they are so brave for defying a veto threat and passing the bill... What ever are we to do now??

Oh yeah... Veto it.

And that means you are cheering for them doing absolutely nothing. How exactly is it courageous to defy a veto threat when you know it will be vetoed and you cant overturn it? All youve done is symbolic. and the symbolism means absolutely nothing other than the Democrats in the Senate have the same contempt for the troops that house Democrats have.
 
Please cite the portion of the Constitution you believe this bill offends.

And, I know you want a Kingdom where the King decides matters of law... but if it's unconstitutional isn't that the job of the Supreme Court to determine whether it is? Since when did the President get the Constitutional charge to determine if laws are unconstitutional? He has one role here. Sign or don't sign. He does not have the Constitutional decision to fund or defund the military... that's the Congress' Constitutional charge.

Why won't President Bush approve $100 billion for our fighting warriors in Iraq and Afghanistan?

So you would substitute a King for 9 Kings in black robes?

The President got the Constitutional role to determine whether laws are unconstitutional when he took the oath of office to protect and uphold the constitution of the United States. It's his duty as President to veto unconstitutional laws as it's Congress's duty to not create them in the first place and the judiciaries to strike them down.

And it's not the funding or defunding part of the bill that is unconstitutional. its the rest of it.
 
A veto would be unconstitutional and it would place the Officers and Enlisted personnel of the United States in harms way. While the President has the constitutional authority to veto an act of Congress when he uses the power of veto to obstruct the Congress in setting U.S. policy so that he can do so he has violated the rights of the American people and of our representatives.

That's bullcrap and you know it. The President has to sign or veto virtually everything Congress does. (Keeping in mind that if he choices to just do nothing its counted as if he signed it).

Congress does not have the authority to set policy that infringes on the power of executive in time of war. They have the power to declare war and to fund/defund it. They don't have any other power.
 
Because he is a traitor who doesn't care about our troops. It is sad that this guy has been so willing to betray the American people, our representatives, and our soldiers. If he vetoes this bill he will be doing so to a) prevent Congress from funding the military, and b) to prevent Congress from setting U.S. policy. Both of these are inappropriate uses of the veto.

How exactly is vetoing a bill the Democrats have deemed "The slow bleed" plan going to hurt the troops? There is a reason its called the slow bleed. It's because they intend to make it impossible for the troops to fight the war, increase the casualties and continue to call for the end to the war.

This of course defies all logic, because they have authority to defund the war if they chose which would end the war immediately. Yet they have chosen a method that prolongs the conflict while making sure troops dont get the necessarily equipment without jumping through an insane amount of hoops.

On top of it, the bill is filled with billions in pork. It's a military appropriations bill. There is no need for non-military pork.
 
Tell that to Alexander Hamilton: "The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offences which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or in other words from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties, more or less friendly, or inimical, to the accused." Not only is obstructing Congress an impeachable offense but the Andrew Johnson impeachment was a specific incident where the offenses be alleged were those of obstructing Congress. My question to you is, "have you ever read anything other than a Republican talking point or are you just ignorant of what the Constitution says and don't know what the Founding Fathers have said, and what the Constitution provides in this respect..." Are you going to answer by saying, "no, my High School government class was taught by none other than George W. Bush so I must know what I am talking about..."



Anyone including George W. Bush can copy and paste portions of the Constitution but the fact is that you both fail to understand the basic tenants of the Constitutional separation of powers and checks and balances. Two-thirds of Congress can over-ride a Presidential veto but if that fails than they have another option of impeaching him for obstruction of Congress and failure to perform his Constitutional duties.

The power of veto was never intended to be used to obstruct Congress and that is why the Founding Fathers included provisions allowing Congress to impeach the President. It is the ultimate Congressional veto of the Presidential veto so to speak. If the President consistently obstructs the will of Congress on a matter than they are left with either surrendering the will of the people to him and allowing him to govern de facto or to impeach him (i.e., he is telling Congress to pass legislation that he wants or he is going to continue to veto it). I suggest you read the Constitution and try reading the Federalist Papers and other founding documents such as the anti-federalist papers and the writings of our Founding Fathers and you may learn something, because it is obvious your understanding of the Constitution is that of a High School graduate who hasn't read it or studied it in any depth other than to cut and paste it from a website. I suspect that is what Mr. Bush does too.

How exactly can the President obstruct the will of the people when he is a servant of the people? The people elected him. He is answerable to the people. He is acting in their behalf as much as Congress is.

Congress is specifically limited in its options during a time of war. The have clearly violated these provisions of the constitution by attempting to do more than simply fund or defund the war.

Oh and dirt is hardly a Bush supporter. He, like the rest of us, just happens to know when we are dealing with someone who has no clue what he is talking about.
 
You are really stupid if you think that Dems actually have CONTEMPT for the troops. That is just a stupid stupid statement. What, you think these dems go home at night and say, "god I just cant stand those troops, I wish every one of them would get blown up"

As I see it, they are trying to bring the troops home to save their lives. How is that contempt? If I was a troop there I would be like hell yeah !!! Im going home soon !!! Oh wait, the president wont let me? BASTARD !!!!!

Yeah, the Dems sure have CONTEMPT for the trooops. Republicans constantly use the same old argument saying they are the ones that are patriotic... But you know what, just saying you are a patriot doesnt mean you are one...Its like saying you have a big cock...If you have to constantly say it, chances are it isnt true !!!!



Oh wow.. they are so brave for defying a veto threat and passing the bill... What ever are we to do now??

Oh yeah... Veto it.

And that means you are cheering for them doing absolutely nothing. How exactly is it courageous to defy a veto threat when you know it will be vetoed and you cant overturn it? All youve done is symbolic. and the symbolism means absolutely nothing other than the Democrats in the Senate have the same contempt for the troops that house Democrats have.
 
Tell that to Alexander Hamilton: "The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offences which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or in other words from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to society itself. The prosecution of them, for this reason, will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties, more or less friendly, or inimical, to the accused." Not only is obstructing Congress an impeachable offense but the Andrew Johnson impeachment was a specific incident where the offenses be alleged were those of obstructing Congress. My question to you is, "have you ever read anything other than a Republican talking point or are you just ignorant of what the Constitution says and don't know what the Founding Fathers have said, and what the Constitution provides in this respect..." Are you going to answer by saying, "no, my High School government class was taught by none other than George W. Bush so I must know what I am talking about..."
You are wrong on so many levels here it's not even funny.

1) I don't spout Republican talking points. I'm unaffiliated with either party and have been accused of being a liberal on many occasions.
2) Alexander Hamilton was speaking in the context of "abuse or violation of public trust." Seeing how Bush is pretty much granted full authority in the Constitution to send back any bill that he doesn't approve of, it doesn't meet any standard of abuse or violation of public trust. The people elected Bush to do just that. Your argument has no merit.
3) Johnson was impeached on the grounds of removing the Secretary of War, not for vetoing a bill. Apples and Oranges. Your citation is irrelevant and doesn't support your claim that Bush should be impeached.
4) I never took High School government class. But by all means if you think I'm arguing at the high school level then you should be able to wipe the floor with me using logic and knowledge of the law.

So far, you've tried to refute the Presidential Powers outlined in the Articles by providing a quote by Alexander Hamilton and an impeachment of Andrew Johnson. You'll have to do build a better case than that, even by message board standards. Arguing that Bush should be impeached for not signing a Bill is not only ridiculous but laughable. Only two Presidents were ever impeached. Neither were impeached for refusing to sign a bill (AKA doing their job.) It doesn't even meet the standards of impeachment set forth in Article II, Section 4, "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

Nevertheless, I look forward to you making the legal case that Bush committed Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. I appreciate a good laugh.

Anyone including George W. Bush can copy and paste portions of the Constitution but the fact is that you both fail to understand the basic tenants of the Constitutional separation of powers and checks and balances. Two-thirds of Congress can over-ride a Presidential veto but if that fails than they have another option of impeaching him for obstruction of Congress and failure to perform his Constitutional duties.
So not only are you ignorant of the law, you're also ignorant of basic fractions. Tell me, if 2/3rds of Congress is needed to override a Presidential veto and the bill passed in the Senate by a vote of 50 to 48 and the House by a vote of 218 to 212, how many members of the House and Senate would need to change their vote in order to overrule the President?

Besides your will of the people argument is bullshit. One of the benefits of the 2/3rds requirement is that it protects the minority. It did well to protect the Democrats when the Repubs were in power, despite the "will of the people" saying differently. I highly doubt you were complaining about the "will of the people" 3 years ago.

Likewise, some idiot could use your flawed logic that the Democrats in the House and the Senate should have been removed from office for obstructing the President and the Congress over the last couple of years of the Republican majority. That is equally retarded as what you're arguing.

The power of veto was never intended to be used to obstruct Congress and that is why the Founding Fathers included provisions allowing Congress to impeach the President. It is the ultimate Congressional veto of the Presidential veto so to speak. If the President consistently obstructs the will of Congress on a matter than they are left with either surrendering the will of the people to him and allowing him to govern de facto or to impeach him (i.e., he is telling Congress to pass legislation that he wants or he is going to continue to veto it). I suggest you read the Constitution and try reading the Federalist Papers and other founding documents such as the anti-federalist papers and the writings of our Founding Fathers and you may learn something, because it is obvious your understanding of the Constitution is that of a High School graduate who hasn't read it or studied it in any depth other than to cut and paste it from a website. I suspect that is what Mr. Bush does too.
LMAO. Someone arguing that the President should be impeached for not yielding to the Legislative branch has no business or credibility to preach about what the "Founding Fathers" meant. Clearly Bush's vetoing of the Bill meets the Separation of Powers, in both word and spirit.
 
So you would substitute a King for 9 Kings in black robes?

The President got the Constitutional role to determine whether laws are unconstitutional when he took the oath of office to protect and uphold the constitution of the United States. It's his duty as President to veto unconstitutional laws as it's Congress's duty to not create them in the first place and the judiciaries to strike them down.

And it's not the funding or defunding part of the bill that is unconstitutional. its the rest of it.

No, I would not substitute anything. I love our Constitution. You obviously hate it since it divides the powers of government between three branches... very succinctly too I might add. If you hate the judiciary as defined by the Constitution, that's your problem, not mine.

You need to read the Constitution before spouting off about what's in it since you obviously have no idea.

I've already cited where the Constitution vests the Congress with power for regulating the military:

Article I, Section 8
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

Sorry, but that line the right-wing radio pundits are telling you to parrot is just plain wrong.


Still waiting for you to actually cite the Constitution in one of your assertions that this bill is unconstitutional. Maybe call Sean or Dopebo and they can fill you in.
 
On top of it, the bill is filled with billions in pork. It's a military appropriations bill. There is no need for non-military pork.

Not only is that wrong... it's a lie. Which makes you a liar.

This is an emergency spending bill... just like the ones in the past four years.

You know, like the one in 2006 which had Hurricane relief and agriculture relief... when the Republicans passed that bill it was filled with non-military money... where was your outrage then?
 
Not only is that wrong... it's a lie. Which makes you a liar.

This is an emergency spending bill... just like the ones in the past four years.

You know, like the one in 2006 which had Hurricane relief and agriculture relief... when the Republicans passed that bill it was filled with non-military money... where was your outrage then?

Aren't military appropriations supposed to be made in the regular budget?

Coming to Congress every year asking for billions in "emergency" funding has gotten old.

Why do you think Bush avoids being up front about the costs of his war and asking Congress to include that cost in the annual federal budget?
 
War-related appropriations are often extra items due to the evolving and unexpected nature of the situations. I'd hate to think that we'd ever arrive at the point of permanent, fully-escalated war which required perpetual appropriations.
 
War-related appropriations are often extra items due to the evolving and unexpected nature of the situations. I'd hate to think that we'd ever arrive at the point of permanent, fully-escalated war which required perpetual appropriations.

So, in 2006 we didn't know we'd be at war in 2007? Dumbest assertion of the day.

And here you have VP Cheney on the weekend talk shows telling us that we're going to be in this thing for a long, long time... blah blah blah...
 
You are really stupid if you think that Dems actually have CONTEMPT for the troops. That is just a stupid stupid statement. What, you think these dems go home at night and say, "god I just cant stand those troops, I wish every one of them would get blown up"

As I see it, they are trying to bring the troops home to save their lives. How is that contempt? If I was a troop there I would be like hell yeah !!! Im going home soon !!! Oh wait, the president wont let me? BASTARD !!!!!

Yeah, the Dems sure have CONTEMPT for the trooops. Republicans constantly use the same old argument saying they are the ones that are patriotic... But you know what, just saying you are a patriot doesnt mean you are one...Its like saying you have a big cock...If you have to constantly say it, chances are it isnt true !!!!

If they wanted to bring the troops home, they would simply vote to do so. They wouldnt vote for the slow bleed legislation they bribed people to vote for.
 

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